Summoners [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Summoners [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fineous
04-02-07, 08:58 PM What are everyone's thoughts on characters who rely on summoning spells in most encounters? I appreciate my player who has built his druid up to be a master summoner through use of feats (augment summoning, etc) and roleplaying but it seems to be unbalancing my game. Now that the party is getting into the mid-levels the druid is able to summon multiple dire wolves, hippogriffs, et al for . While being an effective(sometimes overly) tactic for the party, it tends to slow down combat as, all of a sudden, there are several new combatants to include in the melee. The other players have to sit around while the druid rolls for all of his summoned minions and himself; not to mention the time it takes to find the stats for the summoned creature. It also is getting repetitive to the point that the party sits back, waits for the summoned animals to soften up their adversaries, and then saunter in for the easy kill. As I said, I understand and appreciate that this is one of the druid's special features (spontaneous summoning) but it is slowing and dulling down my game. Any ideas on how to adjudicate this?
Nom
04-02-07, 11:25 PM not to mention the time it takes to find the stats for the summoned creature.My rule on this is that if you want to memorise a "summon" spell and actually use it then it's your responsibility to have the stats to hand. You also need to demonstrate that you are skilled enough with the game system to handle the extra complexity of multiple "characters".

As DM, note that the CR ratings of summoned creatures are typically significantly below the CR ratings faced by PCs. If the summoned creatures are more than auxilliary combatants (blockers, flankers, etc) then it's possible that something else is wacky.
Fineous
04-03-07, 12:09 AM With the augment summoning feat (creature gains +4 str,con) two or three dire wolves with their +13 trip attacks and 57 HPs are a decent threat to CR 6 or 7 encounters. They usually don't kill a monster with that high of a CR but will significantly weaken and/or slow it down with their trip attacks and possible AoO's, especially if it's humanoid.
Leilond
04-03-07, 04:07 AM I've got a Druid in my group too... here is some suggestion

1) The player has a printend table with ALL his preferred animals stats written. No search needed at all. If he doesn't have the stats ready at his turn, he cannot summon the animal (This saved tons of time)
2) Damage reducition. Put in a vampire (DR 10/Silver and magic) or a true lycantrophe (DR 10/Silver) and the "animals" become really less powerfull
3) Will saves. Animals do not have good will save... they can be beaten easly with some mind affecting spells (cause fear, monster with fear aura like "mummies" and "spectre")
4) Summonned animals AREN'T totally under control of the druid! They're animal and will fight as they think is better. Do not let your druid decide particular surrounding strategy... Remember that a dire wolf has an intelligence of 3... it goes to the enemy and bites, nothing more
Nom
04-03-07, 08:05 AM Look at it another way. I'll assume 2-3 dire wolves is from summon monster IV, which means he's using a 4th level spell augmented by two feats. At the same level, he has flame strike, giant vermin or spike stones, while at the previous level he has call lightning, dominate animal, poison or sleet storm. Assuming his opponent fights rather than just holds off for the 7-8 rounds for the spell to expire, any or all of these spells are of roughly the same power level. You'd expect that burning off your most powerful spell slots (of which you only get 2-3 per day) would turn the tide of the battle.
Leilond
04-03-07, 08:19 AM Very good thought
Fly is another way to make the druid's spell wasted. After he summons the wolves the enemy fly away and wait for the summoned animals to wipe out (duration 1 round/level is really not so much)

Golems too are interesting opponent (DR X/adamantium) or devils (DR X/silver or good) and demons (DR X/cold iron or good) or other DR X/magic (there are tons out there)

I'm not saying you've to always foolish your player strategy because it is a GOOD strategy, but every now and then you can do it
If your Fighter took the "disarm feat" you'll sure put sometimes enemies to use it or he will understand that you're deliberately nerfing his character. The same for the Druid: if the player like that way of playing it is intersting to put sometimes encounters that make the strategy "winner"... but not all the time, or the other players will be upset before or then
meabolex
04-03-07, 09:57 AM Any ideas on how to adjudicate this?

Seen it happen. It's kind of annoying because the summoning build isn't that bad overall -- it's just unfriendly due to the additional time involved in messing with numerous summons in many types of combats. When you have one player contributing 8 attackers to a combat, things can really slow down.

Of course, the entire build is fairly weak to dispel magic and the various goodbye spells (dismissal). Also, protection against X/magic circle against X can be effective against them.

Another thing is that 1 round casting time. A well-placed direct damage spell can fizzle any of those summons without an often giant concentration check. Average DC 45 check after a 10d6 fireball, which is fairly tough to make even at the highest levels. Ranged physical attacks also apply.

So all in all the build is balanced around its weakness to magic.
Magnus029
04-03-07, 10:56 AM The full round cast is the biggest weakeness to this spell IMHO, even if he gets to go first he has still potentially faces attacks from EVERY enemy that can see him casting, and yes it is very fair to have every attack pointed his way to interupt his spell.

As far as the having to look up stats, that to me is unacceptable, the player NEEDS to be prepared and have that information ready, I don't spend hours getting prepared to waste time dealing with unprepared players.
tos_shai_hulud
04-03-07, 10:59 AM I am a big fan of variants for each class. If a character wants to specialize in something that every wizard can do, he finds a way to do it that no other wizard can, but that training causes him to lose out on something.

For summoners, I like Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummon ing) from Unearthed Arcana.
olshanski_home
04-03-07, 11:01 AM 1. Summoner must have stats for creatures on paper for you.
2. Summoning spells require full-round. This means the summoner is #1 target of foes.
3. Opponents can retreat/fly
4. Opponents can cast protection from x.
5. Summoned creatures attack the nearest enemy. they are not guided missiles. If the summoner wants to control who the summoned creatues attack, he must be able to speak with them, and often use a handle-animal skill to do so (move action for druids).
mvincent
04-03-07, 12:37 PM Some possible solutions:
1) Increase the CR of encounters. Note: I've never found summoned creatures to be unbalancing. If they are that useful, then it's possible that the rest of the party is under optimized and not facing as powerful of foes as I would expect.
2) Roll for the summoned creatures yourself (especially useful if you have an automated creature damage roller, like DM's familiar or somesuch).
3) Insist that the summoner handle his creatures in a timely manner.
4) Give the summoned creatures to other players to run (either equally divide them, or assign rolling duties to whoever is fastest or currently under-utilized).
5) Create cheat sheets (as mentioned above).
6) Use average damage amounts for each attack (so that only to-hit needs to be rolled).
7) Create 1"x1" (or 2"x2", etc.) counters for the creatures with their important combats stats on one side (and possibly the creature's picture on the other side). These serve a double purpose, and should allow anyone at the table to roll for the creature at any time.
olshanski_home
04-03-07, 02:02 PM Also examine the creatures first.
I'll assure you that a bison should be a available a full level higher than indicated, or else its attack should be a secondary attack as it is a herbivore.

Bison+augment summoning=
Hit Dice: 5d8+25 (47 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+15
Attack: Gore +10 melee (1d8+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6–30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 6–7 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

I think this CR2 bison can take out a CR3 ogre if they go head-to-head brawling. (Bison has worse AC and no reach, but 50% more HP and slightly higher average damage)
Nom
04-04-07, 12:02 AM Olsh, it's worth noting that +4 Str/+4 Con could easily be worth +1 CR. Though you pay two (very specialised) feats to get that.
Fineous
04-04-07, 04:58 AM I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything.
Leilond
04-04-07, 08:08 AM I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything.

Oh yes! Against intelligent opponents the "summonner" will be surely become a good target
perdera
04-04-07, 10:31 AM I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything.

Yup, made a huge difference the first time I realized that. Actually makes Arcane casters doing this more painful--once they figure out to just fly around invisible casting summon spells.
Fineous
04-04-07, 02:50 PM Or a druid that has the Natural Spell feat, wildshapes and flies around as an inconspicous eagle while summoning animals to his heart's content.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fineous 04-02-07, 08:58 PM	What are everyone's thoughts on characters who rely on summoning spells in most encounters? I appreciate my player who has built his druid up to be a master summoner through use of feats (augment summoning, etc) and roleplaying but it seems to be unbalancing my game. Now that the party is getting into the mid-levels the druid is able to summon multiple dire wolves, hippogriffs, et al for . While being an effective(sometimes overly) tactic for the party, it tends to slow down combat as, all of a sudden, there are several new combatants to include in the melee. The other players have to sit around while the druid rolls for all of his summoned minions and himself; not to mention the time it takes to find the stats for the summoned creature. It also is getting repetitive to the point that the party sits back, waits for the summoned animals to soften up their adversaries, and then saunter in for the easy kill. As I said, I understand and appreciate that this is one of the druid's special features (spontaneous summoning) but it is slowing and dulling down my game. Any ideas on how to adjudicate this?
Nom 04-02-07, 11:25 PM	not to mention the time it takes to find the stats for the summoned creature.My rule on this is that if you want to memorise a "summon" spell and actually use it then it's your responsibility to have the stats to hand. You also need to demonstrate that you are skilled enough with the game system to handle the extra complexity of multiple "characters". As DM, note that the CR ratings of summoned creatures are typically significantly below the CR ratings faced by PCs. If the summoned creatures are more than auxilliary combatants (blockers, flankers, etc) then it's possible that something else is wacky.
Fineous 04-03-07, 12:09 AM	With the augment summoning feat (creature gains +4 str,con) two or three dire wolves with their +13 trip attacks and 57 HPs are a decent threat to CR 6 or 7 encounters. They usually don't kill a monster with that high of a CR but will significantly weaken and/or slow it down with their trip attacks and possible AoO's, especially if it's humanoid.
Leilond 04-03-07, 04:07 AM	I've got a Druid in my group too... here is some suggestion 1) The player has a printend table with ALL his preferred animals stats written. No search needed at all. If he doesn't have the stats ready at his turn, he cannot summon the animal (This saved tons of time) 2) Damage reducition. Put in a vampire (DR 10/Silver and magic) or a true lycantrophe (DR 10/Silver) and the "animals" become really less powerfull 3) Will saves. Animals do not have good will save... they can be beaten easly with some mind affecting spells (cause fear, monster with fear aura like "mummies" and "spectre") 4) Summonned animals AREN'T totally under control of the druid! They're animal and will fight as they think is better. Do not let your druid decide particular surrounding strategy... Remember that a dire wolf has an intelligence of 3... it goes to the enemy and bites, nothing more
Nom 04-03-07, 08:05 AM	Look at it another way. I'll assume 2-3 dire wolves is from summon monster IV, which means he's using a 4th level spell augmented by two feats. At the same level, he has flame strike, giant vermin or spike stones, while at the previous level he has call lightning, dominate animal, poison or sleet storm. Assuming his opponent fights rather than just holds off for the 7-8 rounds for the spell to expire, any or all of these spells are of roughly the same power level. You'd expect that burning off your most powerful spell slots (of which you only get 2-3 per day) would turn the tide of the battle.
Leilond 04-03-07, 08:19 AM	Very good thought Fly is another way to make the druid's spell wasted. After he summons the wolves the enemy fly away and wait for the summoned animals to wipe out (duration 1 round/level is really not so much) Golems too are interesting opponent (DR X/adamantium) or devils (DR X/silver or good) and demons (DR X/cold iron or good) or other DR X/magic (there are tons out there) I'm not saying you've to always foolish your player strategy because it is a GOOD strategy, but every now and then you can do it If your Fighter took the "disarm feat" you'll sure put sometimes enemies to use it or he will understand that you're deliberately nerfing his character. The same for the Druid: if the player like that way of playing it is intersting to put sometimes encounters that make the strategy "winner"... but not all the time, or the other players will be upset before or then
meabolex 04-03-07, 09:57 AM	Any ideas on how to adjudicate this? Seen it happen. It's kind of annoying because the summoning build isn't that bad overall -- it's just unfriendly due to the additional time involved in messing with numerous summons in many types of combats. When you have one player contributing 8 attackers to a combat, things can really slow down. Of course, the entire build is fairly weak to dispel magic and the various goodbye spells (dismissal). Also, protection against X/magic circle against X can be effective against them. Another thing is that 1 round casting time. A well-placed direct damage spell can fizzle any of those summons without an often giant concentration check. Average DC 45 check after a 10d6 fireball, which is fairly tough to make even at the highest levels. Ranged physical attacks also apply. So all in all the build is balanced around its weakness to magic.
Magnus029 04-03-07, 10:56 AM	The full round cast is the biggest weakeness to this spell IMHO, even if he gets to go first he has still potentially faces attacks from EVERY enemy that can see him casting, and yes it is very fair to have every attack pointed his way to interupt his spell. As far as the having to look up stats, that to me is unacceptable, the player NEEDS to be prepared and have that information ready, I don't spend hours getting prepared to waste time dealing with unprepared players.
tos_shai_hulud 04-03-07, 10:59 AM	I am a big fan of variants for each class. If a character wants to specialize in something that every wizard can do, he finds a way to do it that no other wizard can, but that training causes him to lose out on something. For summoners, I like Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummon ing) from Unearthed Arcana.
olshanski_home 04-03-07, 11:01 AM	1. Summoner must have stats for creatures on paper for you. 2. Summoning spells require full-round. This means the summoner is #1 target of foes. 3. Opponents can retreat/fly 4. Opponents can cast protection from x. 5. Summoned creatures attack the nearest enemy. they are not guided missiles. If the summoner wants to control who the summoned creatues attack, he must be able to speak with them, and often use a handle-animal skill to do so (move action for druids).
mvincent 04-03-07, 12:37 PM	Some possible solutions: 1) Increase the CR of encounters. Note: I've never found summoned creatures to be unbalancing. If they are that useful, then it's possible that the rest of the party is under optimized and not facing as powerful of foes as I would expect. 2) Roll for the summoned creatures yourself (especially useful if you have an automated creature damage roller, like DM's familiar or somesuch). 3) Insist that the summoner handle his creatures in a timely manner. 4) Give the summoned creatures to other players to run (either equally divide them, or assign rolling duties to whoever is fastest or currently under-utilized). 5) Create cheat sheets (as mentioned above). 6) Use average damage amounts for each attack (so that only to-hit needs to be rolled). 7) Create 1"x1" (or 2"x2", etc.) counters for the creatures with their important combats stats on one side (and possibly the creature's picture on the other side). These serve a double purpose, and should allow anyone at the table to roll for the creature at any time.
olshanski_home 04-03-07, 02:02 PM	Also examine the creatures first. I'll assure you that a bison should be a available a full level higher than indicated, or else its attack should be a secondary attack as it is a herbivore. Bison+augment summoning= Hit Dice: 5d8+25 (47 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+15 Attack: Gore +10 melee (1d8+12) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +1 Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4 Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5 Feats: Alertness, Endurance Environment: Temperate plains Organization: Solitary or herd (6–30) Challenge Rating: 2 Advancement: 6–7 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — I think this CR2 bison can take out a CR3 ogre if they go head-to-head brawling. (Bison has worse AC and no reach, but 50% more HP and slightly higher average damage)
Nom 04-04-07, 12:02 AM	Olsh, it's worth noting that +4 Str/+4 Con could easily be worth +1 CR. Though you pay two (very specialised) feats to get that.
Fineous 04-04-07, 04:58 AM	I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything.
Leilond 04-04-07, 08:08 AM	I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything. Oh yes! Against intelligent opponents the "summonner" will be surely become a good target
perdera 04-04-07, 10:31 AM	I screwed up by not noticing that this is a full round spell; that changes everything. Yup, made a huge difference the first time I realized that. Actually makes Arcane casters doing this more painful--once they figure out to just fly around invisible casting summon spells.
Fineous 04-04-07, 02:50 PM	Or a druid that has the Natural Spell feat, wildshapes and flies around as an inconspicous eagle while summoning animals to his heart's content.