summoning cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

summoning cleric [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
evilnumberlady
05-23-07, 06:09 PM There's a member of my group who wants to play a cleric who has a focus on summoning spells. That in and of itself is fine with me. However, he wants to make his summoning more powerful for this.

He has asked to be able to apply celestial templates to the creatures billed as evil in the spell description, and therefore have access to more the animals on the chart (PHB 287). For example, he would like the option of summoning a celestial hawk, raven, octopus, ect in addition to his choices that are already good.

In addition he wants a way to directly control the animals he summons. I wasn't sure what would accomplish this, but making a DC 25 handle animal check seemed the most applicable. (DC 25 for "pushing" an untrained animal to perform some trick) However, that seems like a pretty difficult DC for what he wants to accomplish, and has asked to be given a skill-boosting item or the ability to use Charisma checks instead.

This will be my first time DMing and I don't feel confident enough to start bending rules; I'm too worried I'd unbalance things. What are the thoughts of people with more experince DMing?
Empiro
05-23-07, 06:41 PM If he wants to summon both fiendish and celestial creatures, then he should play a neutral cleric, or a wizard. Even if it probably won't ruin your game if you do let him, don't be afraid to say "no" to this request. Summoning is pretty good already.

However, note that you can communicate with creatures with the fiendish or celestial template -- they have at least 3 intelligence, and therefore can speak one language (celestial, infernal, or abyssal), so you can order them around without handle animal checks.
Kouk
05-23-07, 06:44 PM Applying the Celestial template in place of the Fiendish template is not really a problem. There is assumed to be both varieties of those creatures, the list just doesn't feel like making them all available.

Celestial and Fiendish are fairly similar, so it won't make much difference if you swap the templates. Only a few animals will ever really see use anyway.

I'm not sure what examples you mean for "directly control". Most DMs assume if you speak the appropriate language then they can do whatever you tell them to that they are capable of. Celestial is a language, but there are two "evil" languages, Abyssal and Fiendish I believe. Higher level things like archons have the ability to understand any language.

Most of those creatures are smarter than normal animals.

I would suggest familiarizing yourself with applying the templates to creatures, this is important for summons.

Also make sure that all creatures he may want to summon already have their stats determined in advance (including the appropriate template), otherwise you can slow the game down.
Coldkilla
05-24-07, 06:25 PM Allowing creatures other than what is listed on the summoning tables is entirely up to the DM. That said, I think it gives the summoner a little too much flexibility by allowing him to summon celestial versions of the fiendish creatures listed. As someone already noted, he should have to be neutral to use both celestial and fiendish summons without consequences.

As for communicating with/directing/controlling summoned creatures, this has been discussed at length and the RAW helps the Summon Monster casters, but not the Summon Nature's Ally casters.

The Celestial and Fiendish templates grant INT of at least 3. It also changes animals into the Magical Beast type.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm

The descriptions for most of these celestial/fiendish creatures do not specify a language, therefore they understand Common, although obviously most of them can't speak it.

Some houserule (or make the honest mistake) that celestial beasts speak/understand only Celestial language and that fiendish beasts speak/understand only Abyssal and/or Infernal, and although it may seem logical, going with the RAW and using Common is usually more practical. Others houserule (or willfully misinterpret the rules) to deny communication between summoner and summoned without additional abilities/magic coming into play (like telepathy). That's a serious nerf of summoning in my book.

On the other hand, low-level creatures called forth by Summon Nature's Ally are just plain animals, not magical beasts, and typically have INT lower than 3. Most people tend to require Handle Animal skillchecks to make these animals do anything that is against their nature or that exceeds simple directives.
Kouk
05-24-07, 07:19 PM I just allow you to tell a creature you summon what you want it to do even if you don't technically speak the language. It is just a summon, maybe the magic of bringing it allows you to communicate by default, or something. I don't think it is that big of a deal and saves on skill checks.

If you tell it to do something really complicated (pull the red lever then the blue lever and push the button) then it probably won't be able to but for straight fighting I let it do whatever the summoner wants.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
evilnumberlady 05-23-07, 06:09 PM	There's a member of my group who wants to play a cleric who has a focus on summoning spells. That in and of itself is fine with me. However, he wants to make his summoning more powerful for this. He has asked to be able to apply celestial templates to the creatures billed as evil in the spell description, and therefore have access to more the animals on the chart (PHB 287). For example, he would like the option of summoning a celestial hawk, raven, octopus, ect in addition to his choices that are already good. In addition he wants a way to directly control the animals he summons. I wasn't sure what would accomplish this, but making a DC 25 handle animal check seemed the most applicable. (DC 25 for "pushing" an untrained animal to perform some trick) However, that seems like a pretty difficult DC for what he wants to accomplish, and has asked to be given a skill-boosting item or the ability to use Charisma checks instead. This will be my first time DMing and I don't feel confident enough to start bending rules; I'm too worried I'd unbalance things. What are the thoughts of people with more experince DMing?
Empiro 05-23-07, 06:41 PM	If he wants to summon both fiendish and celestial creatures, then he should play a neutral cleric, or a wizard. Even if it probably won't ruin your game if you do let him, don't be afraid to say "no" to this request. Summoning is pretty good already. However, note that you can communicate with creatures with the fiendish or celestial template -- they have at least 3 intelligence, and therefore can speak one language (celestial, infernal, or abyssal), so you can order them around without handle animal checks.
Kouk 05-23-07, 06:44 PM	Applying the Celestial template in place of the Fiendish template is not really a problem. There is assumed to be both varieties of those creatures, the list just doesn't feel like making them all available. Celestial and Fiendish are fairly similar, so it won't make much difference if you swap the templates. Only a few animals will ever really see use anyway. I'm not sure what examples you mean for "directly control". Most DMs assume if you speak the appropriate language then they can do whatever you tell them to that they are capable of. Celestial is a language, but there are two "evil" languages, Abyssal and Fiendish I believe. Higher level things like archons have the ability to understand any language. Most of those creatures are smarter than normal animals. I would suggest familiarizing yourself with applying the templates to creatures, this is important for summons. Also make sure that all creatures he may want to summon already have their stats determined in advance (including the appropriate template), otherwise you can slow the game down.
Coldkilla 05-24-07, 06:25 PM	Allowing creatures other than what is listed on the summoning tables is entirely up to the DM. That said, I think it gives the summoner a little too much flexibility by allowing him to summon celestial versions of the fiendish creatures listed. As someone already noted, he should have to be neutral to use both celestial and fiendish summons without consequences. As for communicating with/directing/controlling summoned creatures, this has been discussed at length and the RAW helps the Summon Monster casters, but not the Summon Nature's Ally casters. The Celestial and Fiendish templates grant INT of at least 3. It also changes animals into the Magical Beast type. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm The descriptions for most of these celestial/fiendish creatures do not specify a language, therefore they understand Common, although obviously most of them can't speak it. Some houserule (or make the honest mistake) that celestial beasts speak/understand only Celestial language and that fiendish beasts speak/understand only Abyssal and/or Infernal, and although it may seem logical, going with the RAW and using Common is usually more practical. Others houserule (or willfully misinterpret the rules) to deny communication between summoner and summoned without additional abilities/magic coming into play (like telepathy). That's a serious nerf of summoning in my book. On the other hand, low-level creatures called forth by Summon Nature's Ally are just plain animals, not magical beasts, and typically have INT lower than 3. Most people tend to require Handle Animal skillchecks to make these animals do anything that is against their nature or that exceeds simple directives.
Kouk 05-24-07, 07:19 PM	I just allow you to tell a creature you summon what you want it to do even if you don't technically speak the language. It is just a summon, maybe the magic of bringing it allows you to communicate by default, or something. I don't think it is that big of a deal and saves on skill checks. If you tell it to do something really complicated (pull the red lever then the blue lever and push the button) then it probably won't be able to but for straight fighting I let it do whatever the summoner wants.