Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sortieme 04-06-07, 09:35 PM	What are the exact rules for a sunder with two weapons? The rules of a sunder are opposed rules, therefore the penalties for two weapon fighting would not apply as a sunder is not "an attack" in the sense of rolling as an attack. Does the penalty apply to Sundering that exists in two weapon fighting or is it simply that two weapons at once would allow for two sundering attempts at once?
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-07, 09:40 PM	You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. You make opposed attack rolls. It does not say opposed attack rolls at your highest attack bonus. It says only attack rolls. One would assume that means that whatever penalties you have for your current attack are present for the Sunder roll, as well, including two-weapon fighting penalties. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat clarifies this a little more: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. Note that this makes no distinction on what type of attack roll is being made.
Pegasos989 04-07-07, 04:51 AM	What are the exact rules for a sunder with two weapons? The rules of a sunder are opposed rules, therefore the penalties for two weapon fighting would not apply as a sunder is not "an attack" in the sense of rolling as an attack. Does the penalty apply to Sundering that exists in two weapon fighting or is it simply that two weapons at once would allow for two sundering attempts at once? Sunder is an attack in every sense of the word. It is listed in table "special attacks" and says "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.". Every penalty you would otherwise have applies to sundering too. I would also note that TWF is bad for sundering because "If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage." and as TWF normally makes less damage per hit, it is less likely to succeed in sundering...
CharlieRock 04-07-07, 08:59 AM	I would also note that TWF is bad for sundering because "If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage." and as TWF normally makes less damage per hit, it is less likely to succeed in sundering... Couldn't you ... sunder with one weapon and deal regular damage with the other?
tos_shai_hulud 04-07-07, 11:18 AM	Couldn't you ... sunder with one weapon and deal regular damage with the other? Probably not. Weapons have hardness. You could attempt to sunder with one weapon, but you might not deal enough damage to make it through the weapon's hardness. So, you would be failing to sunder with one weapon and dealing regular damage with the other. If you have adamantine weapons, that is a different story. I am not sure if this is still the case, but I know that at one point, I read that you must have a weapon with equal or greater enhancement to be able to sunder. For instance, if you had a +1 weapon and the enemy had a +2 weapon, even if you succeeded in hitting the weapon, you would fail to deal any damage. I am trying to check the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org), but it is currently down.
Merestil Haye 04-07-07, 11:39 AM	I would also note that TWF is bad for sundering because "If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage." and as TWF normally makes less damage per hit, it is less likely to succeed in sundering...Well if you fail to hit the enemy with a regular attack, you fail to deliver damage too. "Fail the sunder attempt" means to fail the DC of the attempt to sunder the weapon by rolling lower than the enemy's result. Two-weapon fighting does not combine well with Sundering for several reasons. Firstly, when using 2WF you have a penalty of at least -2 on your attack roll, including opposed attack rolls. Secondly, because you are limited to using 1-handed or light weapons, you are forced to forego the bonus to the attack roll for using a 2-handed weapon. And thirdly you deal less damage than a 2-handed weapon if you do succeed, meaning you are less likely to overcome hardness. I am not sure if this is still the case, but I know that at one point, I read that you must have a weapon with equal or greater enhancement to be able to sunder. For instance, if you had a +1 weapon and the enemy had a +2 weapon, even if you succeeded in hitting the weapon, you would fail to deal any damage. I am trying to check the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org), but it is currently down.That was a 3.0 rule that was changed in 3.5. A reference to the old rule remained in the DMG, but this was removed in errata. That d20 SRD site has long since excised the statement - the maintainer is usually quie good about updating the content to include errata.
tos_shai_hulud 04-07-07, 11:44 AM	That was a 3.0 rule that was changed in 3.5. A reference to the old rule remained in the DMG, but this was removed in errata. That d20 SRD site has long since excised the statement - the maintainer is usually quie good about updating the content to include errata. Ah, thank you. I knew I had seen it somewhere. Good to know that they corrected it :).
Aminvelos 04-07-07, 02:08 PM	I'll assume you use a onehanded & light -2 -2 light weapons take a -4 one handed weapons take a 0 two handed weapon take a +4 Improved Sunder +4 To break a typical one handed weapon your looking at 15 damage, to break it. 10 of that damage will be damage reduction, and magical items are generally stronger as are two handed I believe and others made of stronger material. I'll assume your strength modifer is +3 1d8 1d6 First attack is made with a +2 you'll have to roll a 8 damage roll to do one damage to the weapon and thats not enough to break it. and you only even have a 60% to win the possible sunder roll if BAB and strength is equal. Your second attack will be considered a light weapon and even worse. The fact is sundering requires you to use power attack to use it successfully generally, that or try to sunder on the charge with the rhinocerus charge feat. An extra 2d6 on a charge with a two handed weapon 1d12. Power attack, Improved Sunder. This looks alot more possible huh? Without power attacking you'll probably get a 10+ bonus on your attack roll compared to your adversary also your range for damage with be 7-28, alot better than attack with two weapons huh, especially with the improved hitting. 2+ Charge 4+ Improved Sunder 4+ two-handed weapon. At lvl 3 your bab 3+ strength 3+ opponent lvl 3 bab 3+ strength 3+ using a one handed weapon 0+ Of course, at this level your probably just better off cutting him in half unless he has great armor. But at higher levels, sometimes sundering the weapon can be much easier.
weasel0 04-08-07, 03:39 AM	For a -4 you can use disarm to snatch their weapon away and then beat them with it....