Sure way to make someone fail save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sure way to make someone fail save [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rotfl_and_Lol
03-12-07, 06:00 PM This is little tricky and non-combat way to make someone fail save against any spell or power. It can be useful if you really need someones body (greater mindswitch) or want to do something to him (like changing his alignment) without any chance of failure.
Normally dominate/charm does not allow us to force someone to fail save, but with this trick it does.
Needed things:
1. Something that will allow us to spam dominate person.
2. Item that casts Nightmare (no need if victim can cast this spell).
3. Victim
Now, how does it work:
1. Immobile victim
2. Dominate it
3. Order it to cast Nightmare on someone who isn't sleeping (this can be even you, provided you aren't elf)
4. If you choose to enter a trance, you are not aware of your surroundings or the activities around you while in the trance.

You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail any saving throw, for example.)
5. ???
6. Profit

By RAW it seems to be ok IMO.
DaMullet
03-12-07, 06:07 PM This is stupid for a lot of reasons. I had a long and detailed post as to why all ready, when firefox decided to die. So I'll summarize.

1) Dominate person has a save. You'd be better off just casting the spell, since you need the vic to fail anyhow.
2)???
3) There is never a step "profit" unless there's a step, "???" immediately beforehand. When will you people learn?

edit: The best way to make sure someone fails their save is to use ability damage to give them a -5 penalty. It's the closest thing to "sure" you can get in this game.
Rotfl_and_Lol
03-12-07, 06:38 PM Sometimes you need to cast expensive spell/power (greater mindswitch or spell in exalted deeds that changes alignment to good and costs 1 lvl).
I forgot this ??? point, thanks for recalling it to me.
Downtym
03-12-07, 07:25 PM By RAW it seems to be ok IMO.

Easier way:

Cast Enervation.

We're done here.
FriendoftheDork
03-13-07, 01:14 AM Why won't dominate/charm work to make someone give up their save voulentarily?We've always played that this is possible... has there been some errata?

Especially charms makes the target beleive you are his trusted friend and ally, why wouldn't an ally give up it's save against a spell you cast (provided it fails to identify the spell, of course!).

Dominate should be even easier, as the target must obey your command (unless he identifies the spell as a deadly or maiming spell), although he might get to make a new save vs dominate if failing such a save is against his nature.

I'm guessing you guys can enlighten me...
Rotfl_and_Lol
03-14-07, 04:36 PM There was long debate about forcing someone to fail save. It would be too easy to dominate great fighter and cast Death Finger on him. Most people agreed that you can't force someone to fail a save.
And Enervation isn't sure way. It merely increases chance of success.
Downtym
03-14-07, 05:46 PM There was long debate about forcing someone to fail save. It would be too easy to dominate great fighter and cast Death Finger on him. Most people agreed that you can't force someone to fail a save.
And Enervation isn't sure way. It merely increases chance of success.

Your way, quite frankly, is ridiculously convoluted, resource intensive, and just plain silly. Accept that. You want to fail a save against a spell? Enervation (Multiple recasts if you have to) + Bestow Curse is your best bet. Also, since your way requires the person to cast nightmare, they would have to be a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard or someone with a high Use Magic Device check.

Okay, we're done here.
Sunblast
03-15-07, 01:34 PM Wait, not done yet! What's this...?
You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail any saving throw, for example.)
You always fail your saving throws when trancing/sleeping? Crud, I never knew that. I mean, reflex saves I could understand, but you fail fortitude saves (like against poison) and will saves (Sleep to keep your quarry from waking up), too? Is there a page I could find this on for reference?
ShubNiggurath
03-15-07, 02:36 PM That's the text of the nightmare spell, it does not work that way every time you sleep, just if you are under the effect of the said spell. Look in the SRD for it.

Also, it is a very situational method, only worth it if you need to cast on the victim a very expensive spell... especially xp wise
Sunblast
03-15-07, 02:46 PM That's the text of the nightmare spell, it does not work that way every time you sleep, just if you are under the effect of the said spell. Look in the SRD for it.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying that.
Lindwyrm
03-16-07, 06:09 PM How about the higher level curse spells?

Can you get someone to fail their next save with a curse of some sort?
Marcus Majarra
03-16-07, 07:59 PM There's a problem of coherence in this idea:

In order to get your target to fail a Will save, you first need for it to fail a Will save.
Lindwyrm
03-16-07, 08:03 PM Yeah well, I never said it was perfect, and I was more thinking to get a fighter or similar to fail his fortitude, or a rogue to fail reflex saves.

*scuffs feet*

I'll get my coat...
Rotfl_and_Lol
03-18-07, 02:53 PM As far as I know using rods isn't reserved to magic users. You could always make rod with nightmare.
And I didn't said its useful in combat, though in certain situations (having some huge, powerful monster without SR and being telepath with greater mindswitch [10000 xp per casting]) it is.
And always-failing-saves-in-trance applies only to nightmare spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-12-07, 06:00 PM	This is little tricky and non-combat way to make someone fail save against any spell or power. It can be useful if you really need someones body (greater mindswitch) or want to do something to him (like changing his alignment) without any chance of failure. Normally dominate/charm does not allow us to force someone to fail save, but with this trick it does. Needed things: 1. Something that will allow us to spam dominate person. 2. Item that casts Nightmare (no need if victim can cast this spell). 3. Victim Now, how does it work: 1. Immobile victim 2. Dominate it 3. Order it to cast Nightmare on someone who isn't sleeping (this can be even you, provided you aren't elf) 4. If you choose to enter a trance, you are not aware of your surroundings or the activities around you while in the trance. You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail any saving throw, for example.) 5. ??? 6. Profit By RAW it seems to be ok IMO.
DaMullet 03-12-07, 06:07 PM	This is stupid for a lot of reasons. I had a long and detailed post as to why all ready, when firefox decided to die. So I'll summarize. 1) Dominate person has a save. You'd be better off just casting the spell, since you need the vic to fail anyhow. 2)??? 3) There is never a step "profit" unless there's a step, "???" immediately beforehand. When will you people learn? edit: The best way to make sure someone fails their save is to use ability damage to give them a -5 penalty. It's the closest thing to "sure" you can get in this game.
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-12-07, 06:38 PM	Sometimes you need to cast expensive spell/power (greater mindswitch or spell in exalted deeds that changes alignment to good and costs 1 lvl). I forgot this ??? point, thanks for recalling it to me.
Downtym 03-12-07, 07:25 PM	By RAW it seems to be ok IMO. Easier way: Cast Enervation. We're done here.
FriendoftheDork 03-13-07, 01:14 AM	Why won't dominate/charm work to make someone give up their save voulentarily?We've always played that this is possible... has there been some errata? Especially charms makes the target beleive you are his trusted friend and ally, why wouldn't an ally give up it's save against a spell you cast (provided it fails to identify the spell, of course!). Dominate should be even easier, as the target must obey your command (unless he identifies the spell as a deadly or maiming spell), although he might get to make a new save vs dominate if failing such a save is against his nature. I'm guessing you guys can enlighten me...
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-14-07, 04:36 PM	There was long debate about forcing someone to fail save. It would be too easy to dominate great fighter and cast Death Finger on him. Most people agreed that you can't force someone to fail a save. And Enervation isn't sure way. It merely increases chance of success.
Downtym 03-14-07, 05:46 PM	There was long debate about forcing someone to fail save. It would be too easy to dominate great fighter and cast Death Finger on him. Most people agreed that you can't force someone to fail a save. And Enervation isn't sure way. It merely increases chance of success. Your way, quite frankly, is ridiculously convoluted, resource intensive, and just plain silly. Accept that. You want to fail a save against a spell? Enervation (Multiple recasts if you have to) + Bestow Curse is your best bet. Also, since your way requires the person to cast nightmare, they would have to be a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard or someone with a high Use Magic Device check. Okay, we're done here.
Sunblast 03-15-07, 01:34 PM	Wait, not done yet! What's this...? You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail any saving throw, for example.) You always fail your saving throws when trancing/sleeping? Crud, I never knew that. I mean, reflex saves I could understand, but you fail fortitude saves (like against poison) and will saves (Sleep to keep your quarry from waking up), too? Is there a page I could find this on for reference?
ShubNiggurath 03-15-07, 02:36 PM	That's the text of the nightmare spell, it does not work that way every time you sleep, just if you are under the effect of the said spell. Look in the SRD for it. Also, it is a very situational method, only worth it if you need to cast on the victim a very expensive spell... especially xp wise
Sunblast 03-15-07, 02:46 PM	That's the text of the nightmare spell, it does not work that way every time you sleep, just if you are under the effect of the said spell. Look in the SRD for it. Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying that.
Lindwyrm 03-16-07, 06:09 PM	How about the higher level curse spells? Can you get someone to fail their next save with a curse of some sort?
Marcus Majarra 03-16-07, 07:59 PM	There's a problem of coherence in this idea: In order to get your target to fail a Will save, you first need for it to fail a Will save.
Lindwyrm 03-16-07, 08:03 PM	Yeah well, I never said it was perfect, and I was more thinking to get a fighter or similar to fail his fortitude, or a rogue to fail reflex saves. scuffs feet I'll get my coat...
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-18-07, 02:53 PM	As far as I know using rods isn't reserved to magic users. You could always make rod with nightmare. And I didn't said its useful in combat, though in certain situations (having some huge, powerful monster without SR and being telepath with greater mindswitch [10000 xp per casting]) it is. And always-failing-saves-in-trance applies only to nightmare spell.