Swarms and readied move actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swarms and readied move actions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hovnarr
05-26-07, 08:31 PM Would this strategy completely defeat the swarm?

*Player has initiative and a torch drawn. He readies a move action to move when the swarm moves into his space.
*Swarm's turn. It moves into his space to attack.
*Before it can complete this action, it draws an AoO and triggers the ready action.

Thus, the player effectively moves and attacks (AoO) on the swarm's turn, which means he'll never begin his turn in a swarm, nor will the swarm ever end its move in his square (thus, he'll never be nauseated or take damage). He will gradually whittle it down with his torch.

Works?
Marcus Majarra
05-26-07, 08:47 PM This would only work if the character's move is superior to the swarm's double move. If you'll read on the subject of swarm attacks, you'll notice that swarms don't need to use a standard action to attack an opponent; they must merely finish their movement inside an opponent's square. So even if the swarm attempts to move inside an opponent's square and that opponent moves away (through readied actions), it's under no constraint to stop moving unless it has no more movement left. Remember that the swarm was merely attempting to enter the character's square. This does not equate to ending movement.
Murrdox
05-26-07, 10:20 PM Would this strategy completely defeat the swarm?

*Player has initiative and a torch drawn. He readies a move action to move when the swarm moves into his space.
*Swarm's turn. It moves into his space to attack.
*Before it can complete this action, it draws an AoO and triggers the ready action.

Thus, the player effectively moves and attacks (AoO) on the swarm's turn, which means he'll never begin his turn in a swarm, nor will the swarm ever end its move in his square (thus, he'll never be nauseated or take damage). He will gradually whittle it down with his torch.

Works?

Also, I don't think your torch idea works either.

When you "Ready" an action, it interrupts the action of the opponent you were readying against.

For example, let's say you're next to a spellcaster, and you Ready an action to move away from him when he casts the spell (a stupid action, I know, but it illustrates my point)

When he casts a spell, you move right before he casts it. Because you moved before he cast the spell, you also don't get an attack of opportunity to try to disrupt it.

This would work the same way as your example.

You can't ready an action to move away, and still get the attack of opportunity and use the torch on the swarm. Your readied action happens before the Attack of Opportunity does.

However, you could ready an action to use the torch, and then take a 5' step as part of the readied action. Nothing stops the swarm from continuing its movement into your square though, as long as it still has enough movement left.
hovnarr
05-27-07, 06:51 AM Thanks for the replies:

it's under no constraint to stop moving unless it has no more movement left. Remember that the swarm was merely attempting to enter the character's square. This does not equate to ending movement.

Good! Missed that. That keeps this from being broken. It's a very good exploit against a Locust Swarm however, since their fastest movement is Fly 30' (poor). If you move straight through the swarm as it attempts to close, it can't turn on a dime and follow you ;)

You can't ready an action to move away, and still get the attack of opportunity and use the torch on the swarm. Your readied action happens before the Attack of Opportunity does.

I though about that too, but reading the rules it seems both happens at once. Both AoO and a readied action set to trigger at the same condition that draws the AoO, happens "before the triggering action". It doesn't say if the AoO or the readied action happens first. As a DM, you could decide that either action is available to the player (but not both), or you could allow him to take a swing while moving through the swarm.

You could be cheesy as a player and say that the readied trigger is for the swarm ending its movement, but I'm not sure I would allow that as a DM (how can you tell when a swarm tries to end its move?). If allowed, this would be a sure-fire way of getting the AoO first (when the swarm tries to enter) and the move afterwards (when ending movement is attempted), plus the swarm couldn't follow you since it specifically completes its action of ending movement immediately after you take your readied action.
Murrdox
05-27-07, 02:35 PM I though about that too, but reading the rules it seems both happens at once. Both AoO and a readied action set to trigger at the same condition that draws the AoO, happens "before the triggering action". It doesn't say if the AoO or the readied action happens first. As a DM, you could decide that either action is available to the player (but not both), or you could allow him to take a swing while moving through the swarm.

You could be cheesy as a player and say that the readied trigger is for the swarm ending its movement, but I'm not sure I would allow that as a DM (how can you tell when a swarm tries to end its move?). If allowed, this would be a sure-fire way of getting the AoO first (when the swarm tries to enter) and the move afterwards (when ending movement is attempted), plus the swarm couldn't follow you since it specifically completes its action of ending movement immediately after you take your readied action.

Yes, you're right, I think you could interpret it this way... that one action can both cause an Attack of Opportunity and set the conditions for a Readied Action simultaneously. I suppose you could say that in these situations, a player could choose which he wanted to do first... take the attack of opportunity, or take the readied action.

There might be some rules to clarify this. In my game, we've always made it such that readied actions resolve before attacks of opportunity happen.

Usually things like this come up when an enemy does something that sets off a readied action from one player, and an attack of opportunity from another player. When this sort of thing comes up, we let the Readied Action player go first, and then the Attack of Opportunity happens.
hovnarr
05-27-07, 04:50 PM Sounds reasonable. Think I'll handle it the same way in the future. Thanks!
Marcus Majarra
05-28-07, 10:24 PM It's a very good exploit against a Locust Swarm however, since their fastest movement is Fly 30' (poor). If you move straight through the swarm as it attempts to close, it can't turn on a dime and follow you ;)

That would be a very generous locust swam. Keep in mind that, unlike other large creatures, swarms are not forced to occupy 4 squares in a square-shaped pattern. Swarms can occupy any 4 contiguous spaces, and I'm inclined to believe it can reshape itself as it sees fit on its turn. I'm fairly sure the swarm can adjust its movement so that it can reshape itself in a way that it ends its movement occupying an opponent's space.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 05-26-07, 08:31 PM	Would this strategy completely defeat the swarm? Player has initiative and a torch drawn. He readies a move action to move when the swarm moves into his space. Swarm's turn. It moves into his space to attack. *Before it can complete this action, it draws an AoO and triggers the ready action. Thus, the player effectively moves and attacks (AoO) on the swarm's turn, which means he'll never begin his turn in a swarm, nor will the swarm ever end its move in his square (thus, he'll never be nauseated or take damage). He will gradually whittle it down with his torch. Works?
Marcus Majarra 05-26-07, 08:47 PM	This would only work if the character's move is superior to the swarm's double move. If you'll read on the subject of swarm attacks, you'll notice that swarms don't need to use a standard action to attack an opponent; they must merely finish their movement inside an opponent's square. So even if the swarm attempts to move inside an opponent's square and that opponent moves away (through readied actions), it's under no constraint to stop moving unless it has no more movement left. Remember that the swarm was merely attempting to enter the character's square. This does not equate to ending movement.
Murrdox 05-26-07, 10:20 PM	Would this strategy completely defeat the swarm? Player has initiative and a torch drawn. He readies a move action to move when the swarm moves into his space. Swarm's turn. It moves into his space to attack. *Before it can complete this action, it draws an AoO and triggers the ready action. Thus, the player effectively moves and attacks (AoO) on the swarm's turn, which means he'll never begin his turn in a swarm, nor will the swarm ever end its move in his square (thus, he'll never be nauseated or take damage). He will gradually whittle it down with his torch. Works? Also, I don't think your torch idea works either. When you "Ready" an action, it interrupts the action of the opponent you were readying against. For example, let's say you're next to a spellcaster, and you Ready an action to move away from him when he casts the spell (a stupid action, I know, but it illustrates my point) When he casts a spell, you move right before he casts it. Because you moved before he cast the spell, you also don't get an attack of opportunity to try to disrupt it. This would work the same way as your example. You can't ready an action to move away, and still get the attack of opportunity and use the torch on the swarm. Your readied action happens before the Attack of Opportunity does. However, you could ready an action to use the torch, and then take a 5' step as part of the readied action. Nothing stops the swarm from continuing its movement into your square though, as long as it still has enough movement left.
hovnarr 05-27-07, 06:51 AM	Thanks for the replies: it's under no constraint to stop moving unless it has no more movement left. Remember that the swarm was merely attempting to enter the character's square. This does not equate to ending movement. Good! Missed that. That keeps this from being broken. It's a very good exploit against a Locust Swarm however, since their fastest movement is Fly 30' (poor). If you move straight through the swarm as it attempts to close, it can't turn on a dime and follow you ;) You can't ready an action to move away, and still get the attack of opportunity and use the torch on the swarm. Your readied action happens before the Attack of Opportunity does. I though about that too, but reading the rules it seems both happens at once. Both AoO and a readied action set to trigger at the same condition that draws the AoO, happens "before the triggering action". It doesn't say if the AoO or the readied action happens first. As a DM, you could decide that either action is available to the player (but not both), or you could allow him to take a swing while moving through the swarm. You could be cheesy as a player and say that the readied trigger is for the swarm ending its movement, but I'm not sure I would allow that as a DM (how can you tell when a swarm tries to end its move?). If allowed, this would be a sure-fire way of getting the AoO first (when the swarm tries to enter) and the move afterwards (when ending movement is attempted), plus the swarm couldn't follow you since it specifically completes its action of ending movement immediately after you take your readied action.
Murrdox 05-27-07, 02:35 PM	I though about that too, but reading the rules it seems both happens at once. Both AoO and a readied action set to trigger at the same condition that draws the AoO, happens "before the triggering action". It doesn't say if the AoO or the readied action happens first. As a DM, you could decide that either action is available to the player (but not both), or you could allow him to take a swing while moving through the swarm. You could be cheesy as a player and say that the readied trigger is for the swarm ending its movement, but I'm not sure I would allow that as a DM (how can you tell when a swarm tries to end its move?). If allowed, this would be a sure-fire way of getting the AoO first (when the swarm tries to enter) and the move afterwards (when ending movement is attempted), plus the swarm couldn't follow you since it specifically completes its action of ending movement immediately after you take your readied action. Yes, you're right, I think you could interpret it this way... that one action can both cause an Attack of Opportunity and set the conditions for a Readied Action simultaneously. I suppose you could say that in these situations, a player could choose which he wanted to do first... take the attack of opportunity, or take the readied action. There might be some rules to clarify this. In my game, we've always made it such that readied actions resolve before attacks of opportunity happen. Usually things like this come up when an enemy does something that sets off a readied action from one player, and an attack of opportunity from another player. When this sort of thing comes up, we let the Readied Action player go first, and then the Attack of Opportunity happens.
hovnarr 05-27-07, 04:50 PM	Sounds reasonable. Think I'll handle it the same way in the future. Thanks!
Marcus Majarra 05-28-07, 10:24 PM	It's a very good exploit against a Locust Swarm however, since their fastest movement is Fly 30' (poor). If you move straight through the swarm as it attempts to close, it can't turn on a dime and follow you ;) That would be a very generous locust swam. Keep in mind that, unlike other large creatures, swarms are not forced to occupy 4 squares in a square-shaped pattern. Swarms can occupy any 4 contiguous spaces, and I'm inclined to believe it can reshape itself as it sees fit on its turn. I'm fairly sure the swarm can adjust its movement so that it can reshape itself in a way that it ends its movement occupying an opponent's space.