Swift action vs Readied Action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swift action vs Readied Action [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cor3ybw
09-04-07, 09:30 AM Hi, i had a question.
If a player of mine, casts a spell with casting time "Swift Action" while a ranger has readied to disrupt his spell by causing a concentration ceck, how does it work?

I can immagine that the ranger does the mage some damage, but i really can't immagine that the damage will come in time to disrupt his Swift Action spell...
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-04-07, 10:28 AM Well, personally I wouldn't know who may act first...

Maybe you could roll a simple 50-50% for whom will act first, or else make them do this:

Wizard: Concentration OR Spellcraft check.
Ranger: Ref save.
Who gets the higher score acts first...

This could be a representation of the Ranger being ready to hit, but forced to act with very good reflexes, if he wants to attack in time... and the Wizard's Concentration/Spellcraft would determine how fast he could make the swift action...

If the Ranger attacks first, then the Wizard must go with the standard Concentration check...
mvincent
09-04-07, 11:55 AM If a player of mine, casts a spell with casting time "Swift Action" while a ranger has readied to disrupt his spell by causing a concentration ceck, how does it work?Quickened and swift spells can be disrupted (or counterspelled) with a readied action.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-04-07, 11:57 AM I can immagine that the ranger does the mage some damage, but i really can't immagine that the damage will come in time to disrupt his Swift Action spell...That what happens when you try to use logic in regards to game rules. :P

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time[.]

Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

Nothing in the rules-as-written suggests that you cannot ready to interrupt a spell cast as a swift action. It is still a spell being cast and as such you can disrupt it, but you have to be ready for it.
heffroncm
09-04-07, 03:02 PM That what happens when you try to use logic in regards to game rules. :P

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time[.]

Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

Nothing in the rules-as-written suggests that you cannot ready to interrupt a spell cast as a swift action. It is still a spell being cast and as such you can disrupt it, but you have to be ready for it.

Yup, a Readied action trumps a Swift or Immediate action. You can even counter someone's Feather Fall if you prepare for it.

... not that I've ever sent a Halfling Sorceror plummeting to his spikey demise with such a nefarious tactic :angelhide
eamon
09-05-07, 03:18 PM Unfortunately, there's no guideline concerning what you can ready an action against. Clearly, you need to perceive the trigger you're readying against, so if you're readying against a spell, but it has no verbal and somatic component, you're out of luck (at the very least, success isn't guaranteed). When it comes to time, well, there too, you need enough time to be able to react. For instance, if you're to cast a "silence" spell as soon as an opponent speaks - well, unless you can predict when an opponent will speak, then you can't ready that action - by the time you perceive it, you'll be too late.

In general however, I think you should be able to ready an action against virtually anything, and succeed. If you're reading against something that comes without warning, and acts instantaneously, well... bad luck, though I would grant the readier the option to take his action as soon as the (instantaneous) trigger occurs, which means it's resolved after the trigger.

If you want to be really precise, you might consider the length of the actions involved: that is, it's hard to conceive of readying a standard action against a swift one (unless you can see it coming...). I think's it's not a crazy idea to only allow triggers that are move-action equivalent or greater, and to not allow readied actions to stack up on other ready actions (i.e. no chains of readied action, that's just ridiculous) and similar occurences. If that's needed, then they'll just have to go after the trigger.

The DMG points out that the Ready action needs some adjudication and is particularly open ended. However, if a particular type of event is extremely fast, and you can't ready because of it (not to come before it anyhow), then do tell the players before they actually ready their action if you know in advance you won't allow it.
eamon
09-05-07, 03:20 PM Well, personally I wouldn't know who may act first...

Maybe you could roll a simple 50-50% for whom will act first, or else make them do this:

Wizard: Concentration OR Spellcraft check.
Ranger: Ref save.
Who gets the higher score acts first...

This could be a representation of the Ranger being ready to hit, but forced to act with very good reflexes, if he wants to attack in time... and the Wizard's Concentration/Spellcraft would determine how fast he could make the swift action...

If the Ranger attacks first, then the Wizard must go with the standard Concentration check...
I think you're right, it's not entirely clear that you can react in time. I would use an opposed Init check, however, if you want to resolve it via dice-rolling - Init is all about reaction speed! Otherwise, simply rule it's too late.
heffroncm
09-05-07, 09:34 PM Remember, a Swift or Immediate action is not timeless. It takes a bit of time, maybe a second and a half, to do it. Each round is 6 seconds, and you only get ONE swift or immediate action per round.

When someone is focused, watching for a specific thing, and has a specific plan in mind, their reaction time can be amazingly fast. Imagine pulling your fist back, eyeing someone, and telling them that if they open their mouth again you'll deck them. Think you can punch them between the time they open their mouth and finish a short sentence? That'd be using a Readied action to interupt a Free action, in D&D terms.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth
09-06-07, 07:07 AM And what if it was a single word and/or the one who readied the action doesn't react fast enough?
Of course anyone can rule it as he wishes, but, personally, I don't like assuming that one will always prevail on the other...
Besides, the Ranger readied his action to counter normal Spells... a Swift one could catch him by surprise... in the DMG there is an example of an Archer readying an action to hit anyone who passes through the door, and forced to make a Ref Save (adding Wis too, because it was an optional rule) to not strike when suddenly it's one of his Friends to pass the door, instead of an Enemy... the same (in a sort of opposite way) would happen here to make the Ranger react swift enough...
eamon
09-06-07, 03:21 PM Remember, a Swift or Immediate action is not timeless. It takes a bit of time, maybe a second and a half, to do it. Each round is 6 seconds, and you only get ONE swift or immediate action per round.

When someone is focused, watching for a specific thing, and has a specific plan in mind, their reaction time can be amazingly fast. Imagine pulling your fist back, eyeing someone, and telling them that if they open their mouth again you'll deck them. Think you can punch them between the time they open their mouth and finish a short sentence? That'd be using a Readied action to interupt a Free action, in D&D terms.

You're definitely right it's not clear that you can finish a swift action before a readied action takes place. It's not clear how long a swift action takes... talking, your example is even easier in game terms (being a free action), but it might take a while to complete... It's free because you can do it while you fight. I think the boundary is vague, and you'll need to treat it on a case by case basis.

In any case, normally you're not just hitting an immobile target talking, but are in full combat ducking and weaving, and with several feet of space between you. In such a situation, you're distracted, and it's more work hitting someone in any case, and potentially the action the character is taking is no more that a single word, or a single arcane gesture. Can you be so fast as to come before the triggering event?

I think it's something you should rule on a case-by-case basis - by default my players can ready with pretty much anything as a trigger, but I won't guarantee that odd triggers will always work. Sometimes, you're just not fast enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cor3ybw 09-04-07, 09:30 AM	Hi, i had a question. If a player of mine, casts a spell with casting time "Swift Action" while a ranger has readied to disrupt his spell by causing a concentration ceck, how does it work? I can immagine that the ranger does the mage some damage, but i really can't immagine that the damage will come in time to disrupt his Swift Action spell...
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-04-07, 10:28 AM	Well, personally I wouldn't know who may act first... Maybe you could roll a simple 50-50% for whom will act first, or else make them do this: Wizard: Concentration OR Spellcraft check. Ranger: Ref save. Who gets the higher score acts first... This could be a representation of the Ranger being ready to hit, but forced to act with very good reflexes, if he wants to attack in time... and the Wizard's Concentration/Spellcraft would determine how fast he could make the swift action... If the Ranger attacks first, then the Wizard must go with the standard Concentration check...
mvincent 09-04-07, 11:55 AM	If a player of mine, casts a spell with casting time "Swift Action" while a ranger has readied to disrupt his spell by causing a concentration ceck, how does it work?Quickened and swift spells can be disrupted (or counterspelled) with a readied action.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-04-07, 11:57 AM	I can immagine that the ranger does the mage some damage, but i really can't immagine that the damage will come in time to disrupt his Swift Action spell...That what happens when you try to use logic in regards to game rules. :P A swift action consumes a very small amount of time[.] Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). Nothing in the rules-as-written suggests that you cannot ready to interrupt a spell cast as a swift action. It is still a spell being cast and as such you can disrupt it, but you have to be ready for it.
heffroncm 09-04-07, 03:02 PM	That what happens when you try to use logic in regards to game rules. :P A swift action consumes a very small amount of time[.] Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result). Nothing in the rules-as-written suggests that you cannot ready to interrupt a spell cast as a swift action. It is still a spell being cast and as such you can disrupt it, but you have to be ready for it. Yup, a Readied action trumps a Swift or Immediate action. You can even counter someone's Feather Fall if you prepare for it. ... not that I've ever sent a Halfling Sorceror plummeting to his spikey demise with such a nefarious tactic :angelhide
eamon 09-05-07, 03:18 PM	Unfortunately, there's no guideline concerning what you can ready an action against. Clearly, you need to perceive the trigger you're readying against, so if you're readying against a spell, but it has no verbal and somatic component, you're out of luck (at the very least, success isn't guaranteed). When it comes to time, well, there too, you need enough time to be able to react. For instance, if you're to cast a "silence" spell as soon as an opponent speaks - well, unless you can predict when an opponent will speak, then you can't ready that action - by the time you perceive it, you'll be too late. In general however, I think you should be able to ready an action against virtually anything, and succeed. If you're reading against something that comes without warning, and acts instantaneously, well... bad luck, though I would grant the readier the option to take his action as soon as the (instantaneous) trigger occurs, which means it's resolved after the trigger. If you want to be really precise, you might consider the length of the actions involved: that is, it's hard to conceive of readying a standard action against a swift one (unless you can see it coming...). I think's it's not a crazy idea to only allow triggers that are move-action equivalent or greater, and to not allow readied actions to stack up on other ready actions (i.e. no chains of readied action, that's just ridiculous) and similar occurences. If that's needed, then they'll just have to go after the trigger. The DMG points out that the Ready action needs some adjudication and is particularly open ended. However, if a particular type of event is extremely fast, and you can't ready because of it (not to come before it anyhow), then do tell the players before they actually ready their action if you know in advance you won't allow it.
eamon 09-05-07, 03:20 PM	Well, personally I wouldn't know who may act first... Maybe you could roll a simple 50-50% for whom will act first, or else make them do this: Wizard: Concentration OR Spellcraft check. Ranger: Ref save. Who gets the higher score acts first... This could be a representation of the Ranger being ready to hit, but forced to act with very good reflexes, if he wants to attack in time... and the Wizard's Concentration/Spellcraft would determine how fast he could make the swift action... If the Ranger attacks first, then the Wizard must go with the standard Concentration check... I think you're right, it's not entirely clear that you can react in time. I would use an opposed Init check, however, if you want to resolve it via dice-rolling - Init is all about reaction speed! Otherwise, simply rule it's too late.
heffroncm 09-05-07, 09:34 PM	Remember, a Swift or Immediate action is not timeless. It takes a bit of time, maybe a second and a half, to do it. Each round is 6 seconds, and you only get ONE swift or immediate action per round. When someone is focused, watching for a specific thing, and has a specific plan in mind, their reaction time can be amazingly fast. Imagine pulling your fist back, eyeing someone, and telling them that if they open their mouth again you'll deck them. Think you can punch them between the time they open their mouth and finish a short sentence? That'd be using a Readied action to interupt a Free action, in D&D terms.
Sol_Aedh_Avoth 09-06-07, 07:07 AM	And what if it was a single word and/or the one who readied the action doesn't react fast enough? Of course anyone can rule it as he wishes, but, personally, I don't like assuming that one will always prevail on the other... Besides, the Ranger readied his action to counter normal Spells... a Swift one could catch him by surprise... in the DMG there is an example of an Archer readying an action to hit anyone who passes through the door, and forced to make a Ref Save (adding Wis too, because it was an optional rule) to not strike when suddenly it's one of his Friends to pass the door, instead of an Enemy... the same (in a sort of opposite way) would happen here to make the Ranger react swift enough...
eamon 09-06-07, 03:21 PM	Remember, a Swift or Immediate action is not timeless. It takes a bit of time, maybe a second and a half, to do it. Each round is 6 seconds, and you only get ONE swift or immediate action per round. When someone is focused, watching for a specific thing, and has a specific plan in mind, their reaction time can be amazingly fast. Imagine pulling your fist back, eyeing someone, and telling them that if they open their mouth again you'll deck them. Think you can punch them between the time they open their mouth and finish a short sentence? That'd be using a Readied action to interupt a Free action, in D&D terms. You're definitely right it's not clear that you can finish a swift action before a readied action takes place. It's not clear how long a swift action takes... talking, your example is even easier in game terms (being a free action), but it might take a while to complete... It's free because you can do it while you fight. I think the boundary is vague, and you'll need to treat it on a case by case basis. In any case, normally you're not just hitting an immobile target talking, but are in full combat ducking and weaving, and with several feet of space between you. In such a situation, you're distracted, and it's more work hitting someone in any case, and potentially the action the character is taking is no more that a single word, or a single arcane gesture. Can you be so fast as to come before the triggering event? I think it's something you should rule on a case-by-case basis - by default my players can ready with pretty much anything as a trigger, but I won't guarantee that odd triggers will always work. Sometimes, you're just not fast enough.