Sword Sage [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Sword Sage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lunawarrior0
12-18-07, 06:45 AM In the expansion book "The Book of Nine Swords" there is a class called the Sword Sage, one of my players brought this book over to my house, and asked if he could be the Sword Sage, I looked it over, and said OK, but now this character is killing everything I can throw at him. He has light armor, but has as much AC as the fighter in the group, can teleport around, and he seems to hit every time. Is this player just getting lucky, or is the class overpowered?:confused:
If anyone has any experience with this class, can you tell me it's weaknesses/balencing factors? I can't seem to find them, and some of my other players are starting to get annoyed.
Thanks
darokinblade
12-18-07, 12:54 PM Tome of Battle is definitely a difficult book to incorporate, not because it is incredibly broken, but because the rules are different than the normal d20. For instance, other than stances, a Sword Sage only gets his abilities once per fight, and must spend a full round action to get one of them back. But at the start of each fight, they are all refreshed.

That is one of their weaknesses. Lots of little foes soak of their hits with the special abilities, and soon the sage is left with only their normal hits.

The AC thing is a little strange. How are the players abilities spread? If the AC is comprable to a fighters, then they must have a high Wis, and a High Dex. In a chain shirt, with dex 20 and +4 armor bonus it is equivalent to a full plate armor with a 13 dex. Not bad, except the fighter can also have a shield, which a sage cannot if they are using weapon finesse. Lastly, look at the number of hit points. The sword sage, without evasion, is still prone to taking at least half damage. It doesn't take long to widdle them away.

Incidentally, what else are in the party with the sage?
Salla
12-18-07, 01:09 PM The Swordsage is generally considered the weakest of the ToB base classes.

He has a lot of maneuvers, but they have the worst recovery mechanic. Odds are, there's a rule or two being missed in here somewhere, the likely one being that he cannot use a maneuver twice until he refreshes it, which requires a full-round action for one maneuver (or use of the Adaptive Style feat, for a full-round action to refresh them all).

If he has as much AC as the fighter in the group, the fighter is most likely not AC-focussed. Is he a plate-armor tanker, or doing one of those light-armor swashbuckly things?
calronmoonflower
12-19-07, 03:21 AM Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules.
Kouk
12-19-07, 06:28 AM Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules.

QFT

Tome of Battle characters are significantly different than the standard rules, and if you measure them against standard Fighters then yes, they are very overpowered.

The point of the book was to introduce a way for melee characters to stay viable all the way up to 20, whereas in Core melee characters stay viable until about level 10 (if that) and then are just speedbumps for the Wizards and Clerics.

If one player uses ToB for a melee character, and others don't, chances are the ToB guy will be performing much more impressive stunts and outdamaging the other melee characters. If it is just one ToB guy and a lot of spellcasters, they should be about equal from level 8-10ish, but before then the ToB character is probably going to dominate.
Dherki
12-19-07, 06:44 AM Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules.

This is a good piece of advice to follow. As a swordsage player myself I cannot really imagine it being overpowered unless some rules were being ignored.
pmurray@bigpond.com
12-22-07, 12:28 AM Don't know how he's "teleporting" around. Sudden Leap is a Jump, and is subject to the AAO rules.

The main thing you and he are probably missing is the recovery mechanic. When a swordsage uses a maneuver, it's a full-round action to get one maneuver back (unless he has been sensible and taken the "adaptive style" feat).

Another thing is that you cannot prepare a manuever multiple times as a spellcaster can. You cant have four Sudden Leaps primed and ready to go.

Note also that most strikes are a standard action. You can't do them as part of a full-round attack. Most boosts are a swift action - you get one swift action per round. Most counters are immediate actions - doing that is the equivalent of taking your next swift action a little early.

When playing a warblade, I found the easiest way to manage maneuvers and maneuver recovery is to print off the Wizards maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) onto card stock, and turn them upside-down as maneuvers are expended.
Salla
12-22-07, 12:29 AM Don't know how he's "teleporting" around. Sudden Leap is a Jump, and is subject to the AAO rules.

Shadow Hand has three teleporting maneuvers. Shadow Jaunt, Step, and Blink I believe they're called. A Standard, a Move, and a Swift action respectively, at increasing levels. They are true teleportations.
DarkRhystar
12-27-07, 12:27 PM In the expansion book "The Book of Nine Swords" there is a class called the Sword Sage, one of my players brought this book over to my house, and asked if he could be the Sword Sage, I looked it over, and said OK

Never allow any race, class, spell...etc without first understanding how it works. You're just asking for trouble by doing that.

Beyond that, the Sword Sage isn't overpowered however if it looks that way it's likely that your player isn't playing it according to the rules. Pay special attention to maneuver use per battle and maneuver recovery.

For example, the Sword Sage can only ready a maneuver once (no multiple copies), maneuvers are expended after use and need to be recovered, and the Sword Sage can only recover a single maneuver at a time (by wasting a full-round action) without Adaptive Style.
Gleekonu
01-05-08, 04:19 AM The swordsage is a powerfull class if used right, but surely no more powerfull than a wizard, or sorc.
The only thing to do is use "shock troops" to eat up all of the sword sages manuevers then immediately throw the "baddies" at the group. Every class in the tob is impressive. But all have weaknesses.

You must read the mechanic and fully understand how each manuever that the player is trying to do works. the sudden recovery + vital recovery feats are a potent combo. but if you read the fine print you can only use vital recovery once a day. the book has downfalls you just have to find them. also check out the monsters in the tob as well you may find that the player is just about ready for a taste of his own medicine.
Gleekonu
01-05-08, 04:26 AM also the sword sage gains his wisdom mod to his ac, so that makes for some pretty frustrating times trying to hit him.

most of the ss manuevers are ranged touch attacks, so just put an enemy right in his face pref. with a reach weapon the AoO will make him spend more time getting away.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lunawarrior0 12-18-07, 06:45 AM	In the expansion book "The Book of Nine Swords" there is a class called the Sword Sage, one of my players brought this book over to my house, and asked if he could be the Sword Sage, I looked it over, and said OK, but now this character is killing everything I can throw at him. He has light armor, but has as much AC as the fighter in the group, can teleport around, and he seems to hit every time. Is this player just getting lucky, or is the class overpowered?:confused: If anyone has any experience with this class, can you tell me it's weaknesses/balencing factors? I can't seem to find them, and some of my other players are starting to get annoyed. Thanks
darokinblade 12-18-07, 12:54 PM	Tome of Battle is definitely a difficult book to incorporate, not because it is incredibly broken, but because the rules are different than the normal d20. For instance, other than stances, a Sword Sage only gets his abilities once per fight, and must spend a full round action to get one of them back. But at the start of each fight, they are all refreshed. That is one of their weaknesses. Lots of little foes soak of their hits with the special abilities, and soon the sage is left with only their normal hits. The AC thing is a little strange. How are the players abilities spread? If the AC is comprable to a fighters, then they must have a high Wis, and a High Dex. In a chain shirt, with dex 20 and +4 armor bonus it is equivalent to a full plate armor with a 13 dex. Not bad, except the fighter can also have a shield, which a sage cannot if they are using weapon finesse. Lastly, look at the number of hit points. The sword sage, without evasion, is still prone to taking at least half damage. It doesn't take long to widdle them away. Incidentally, what else are in the party with the sage?
Salla 12-18-07, 01:09 PM	The Swordsage is generally considered the weakest of the ToB base classes. He has a lot of maneuvers, but they have the worst recovery mechanic. Odds are, there's a rule or two being missed in here somewhere, the likely one being that he cannot use a maneuver twice until he refreshes it, which requires a full-round action for one maneuver (or use of the Adaptive Style feat, for a full-round action to refresh them all). If he has as much AC as the fighter in the group, the fighter is most likely not AC-focussed. Is he a plate-armor tanker, or doing one of those light-armor swashbuckly things?
calronmoonflower 12-19-07, 03:21 AM	Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules.
Kouk 12-19-07, 06:28 AM	Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules. QFT Tome of Battle characters are significantly different than the standard rules, and if you measure them against standard Fighters then yes, they are very overpowered. The point of the book was to introduce a way for melee characters to stay viable all the way up to 20, whereas in Core melee characters stay viable until about level 10 (if that) and then are just speedbumps for the Wizards and Clerics. If one player uses ToB for a melee character, and others don't, chances are the ToB guy will be performing much more impressive stunts and outdamaging the other melee characters. If it is just one ToB guy and a lot of spellcasters, they should be about equal from level 8-10ish, but before then the ToB character is probably going to dominate.
Dherki 12-19-07, 06:44 AM	Have him leave you the book for a while and read the rules throughly. The mostly often cause of brokenness is not properly following the rules. This is a good piece of advice to follow. As a swordsage player myself I cannot really imagine it being overpowered unless some rules were being ignored.
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-22-07, 12:28 AM	Don't know how he's "teleporting" around. Sudden Leap is a Jump, and is subject to the AAO rules. The main thing you and he are probably missing is the recovery mechanic. When a swordsage uses a maneuver, it's a full-round action to get one maneuver back (unless he has been sensible and taken the "adaptive style" feat). Another thing is that you cannot prepare a manuever multiple times as a spellcaster can. You cant have four Sudden Leaps primed and ready to go. Note also that most strikes are a standard action. You can't do them as part of a full-round attack. Most boosts are a swift action - you get one swift action per round. Most counters are immediate actions - doing that is the equivalent of taking your next swift action a little early. When playing a warblade, I found the easiest way to manage maneuvers and maneuver recovery is to print off the Wizards maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) onto card stock, and turn them upside-down as maneuvers are expended.
Salla 12-22-07, 12:29 AM	Don't know how he's "teleporting" around. Sudden Leap is a Jump, and is subject to the AAO rules. Shadow Hand has three teleporting maneuvers. Shadow Jaunt, Step, and Blink I believe they're called. A Standard, a Move, and a Swift action respectively, at increasing levels. They are true teleportations.
DarkRhystar 12-27-07, 12:27 PM	In the expansion book "The Book of Nine Swords" there is a class called the Sword Sage, one of my players brought this book over to my house, and asked if he could be the Sword Sage, I looked it over, and said OK Never allow any race, class, spell...etc without first understanding how it works. You're just asking for trouble by doing that. Beyond that, the Sword Sage isn't overpowered however if it looks that way it's likely that your player isn't playing it according to the rules. Pay special attention to maneuver use per battle and maneuver recovery. For example, the Sword Sage can only ready a maneuver once (no multiple copies), maneuvers are expended after use and need to be recovered, and the Sword Sage can only recover a single maneuver at a time (by wasting a full-round action) without Adaptive Style.
Gleekonu 01-05-08, 04:19 AM	The swordsage is a powerfull class if used right, but surely no more powerfull than a wizard, or sorc. The only thing to do is use "shock troops" to eat up all of the sword sages manuevers then immediately throw the "baddies" at the group. Every class in the tob is impressive. But all have weaknesses. You must read the mechanic and fully understand how each manuever that the player is trying to do works. the sudden recovery + vital recovery feats are a potent combo. but if you read the fine print you can only use vital recovery once a day. the book has downfalls you just have to find them. also check out the monsters in the tob as well you may find that the player is just about ready for a taste of his own medicine.
Gleekonu 01-05-08, 04:26 AM	also the sword sage gains his wisdom mod to his ac, so that makes for some pretty frustrating times trying to hit him. most of the ss manuevers are ranged touch attacks, so just put an enemy right in his face pref. with a reach weapon the AoO will make him spend more time getting away.