Symbol of --- vs Search [Archive] - Wizards Community

Symbol of --- vs Search [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Averroes
04-25-07, 12:29 PM In my next mission the players are going to be fighting a big ol devil near a portal. In the creatures spellist it includes all the symbol spells. So I thought it would be fun (For me anyway:devil: ) to have the Devil lay various symbols around the room and attune herself and her minions to them.

The beguiler in my group will probally be smart and try to disable them. However I came across these two statements in the symbol of death description.

Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally."

Ok so they can see the symbol before they trigger it, making thier movement difficult. That makes sense until this part at the end.

Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.

Ok so they can see it from 60ft away but need to search for it? How does this work?
I'd ask my group but I don't want to ruin the suprise. I don't really want to have to stop the game for 10min while we debate it when it comes up.

Right now I'm thinking the search chech is only needed for a covered,(therefore ineffective) traps.
tos_shai_hulud
04-25-07, 12:38 PM Well, a smart creature would place several runes throughout a building so that another will not look out of place. This means that yes, they will see the rune/symbol and will assume that it is another rune devoted to some force of magic. Perhaps they are even interesting to look at. The idea that I get from it is that a rogue can sense danger. By searching the area, the rogue gets the impression that something about the rune is not quite right, and without looking at it, covers it up. More powerful spells are more difficult to notice and disable (by getting too close, you may just set it off instead). If you can avoid setting it off, you have no problem disabling it. For a wizard with Telekinesis, disabling it would be extremely simple, as they can just take a wooden block or something and hide the runes so it cannot activate.

This is just my interpretation, so someone who knows better might be better suited to answering this question.
olshanski_home
04-25-07, 12:42 PM Regardless of the funky descriptions, the target area or blast zone or trigger area should be all detectable by a rogue's "search" skill.

If there is a net trap 20 feet above on the ceiling, you could argue that search only has a range of 10 feet, so the rogue cannot detect it as a trap. It is much more fair to rule that the rogue can detect any component of the trap (trigger location, target location, or trap itself).

This means that the rogue can detect the trap via the blast radius. (since search has a range of 10 feet, he can detect blast range from up to 70 feet from the actual symbol).

As far as how "disabling" works, that is usually better left not described by the rules. The rogue's ability to disable traps is often a bone of contention, I'd usually describe it as the rogue somehow able to sneak up on the trap without triggering it, and then attempting to disable it. If he fails on disable device, he sets off the trap and is harmed by it.
Averroes
04-25-07, 04:37 PM As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune.

Looks at the rune seems problematic at best. I can already hear the argument over that one. It seems actually impossible not to see it. It says in the language that the symbol has to be displayed. So you move in 60' you see it. Boom! That seems kinda weak.

This still doesn't answer my question as far as why a search is necessary. As you have to be able to see the rune. So why would one have to search for it?

I might have this wrong. So help would be greatly apprecated.

For my purposes I am planning on having them be more like land mines. To which the Devils will be using to thier advantage. So I'm not going to mess with the 'look' rule.

Also it says in the description that if the trigger is touch trying to cover it activats it. So a wizard trying to cover them would actually activate them. I am actually thinking the trigger will be actual touch by any good aligned creatures as well as reading the rune.
olshanski_home
04-25-07, 04:43 PM Well there is "ye olde graphitti" runes that mean nothing.
A rogue would use his search skill at a range of about 65 feet to determine that there is evidence of a trap nearby. If the rogue succeeds on his DC33 search check (or whatever), then he has determined the presence of a magical trap. He has determined it by looking at the blast radius or some other give-away. I frankly don't know what exactly a rogue finds, but it is certainly nothing that a 20th level wizard or 20th level expert could find... but a 1st level rogue could... something about rogue training lets them find traps.

In any case, having determined the presence of a symbol trap... even if he hasn't looked at the symbol from within 60 feet, he can either warn the party not to enter the dangerous zone, or else he can try to disarm the trap.

Once a rogue is aware of a symbol trap, what's to stop him from closing his eyes and trying to close-in on the rune using his trap sense and whatnot in order to disable the trap? This seems like a reasonable use of disable device. On a failed roll, he accidentally looked at the rune, on a successful roll, he was able to approach and mar the rune without looking at it.

Sometimes its best to accept the rules for what they are... abstractions. It isn't a good idea to apply real-world physics or beliefs about reality to D&D world. (fireballs underwater? people falling 200 feet and walking away?)
tos_shai_hulud
04-25-07, 04:48 PM As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune.

Looks at the rune seems problematic at best. I can already hear the argument over that one. It seems actually impossible not to see it. It says in the language that the symbol has to be displayed. So you move in 60' you see it. Boom! That seems kinda weak.

This still doesn't answer my question as far as why a search is necessary. As you have to be able to see the rune. So why would one have to search for it?

I would follow olshanski_home's advice and keep it abstract. The search check is simply a mechanic of the game to realize that it is a trap. What would make someone think, "Oh, there is a rune on the wall. Clearly, that is a trap"? A smart caster would have placed other runes on the walls that had no effect, and this rune happens to have an effect. How would one distinguish a magical rune from a nonmagical one. Perhaps the search check is for the rogue to sense the magic. Perhaps it is for the rogue to figure out a way to avert his eyes while still investigating. Perhaps he needs to trick the magic to make it think he doesn't see, read, touch, or do any of those other things to the trap. If he succeeds, he knows that it is definitely a trap. If he fails by a little, there is no trap. If he fails by a lot, perhaps he even set the trap off, just as if he failed with a disable device check. Who knows what he is doing to discover that some random writing on the wall is a trap, but whatever it is, that is the mechanic for it. If he discovers it is a trap, then he needs to disable it. Once again, this is something that olshanski_home recommends to keep abstract, and again, I would have to agree with him. Who knows what a rogue might do to make it work. Perhaps he covers it up, or uses his dagger to screw it up. Whatever it is, it doesn't need to be explained.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Averroes 04-25-07, 12:29 PM	In my next mission the players are going to be fighting a big ol devil near a portal. In the creatures spellist it includes all the symbol spells. So I thought it would be fun (For me anyway:devil: ) to have the Devil lay various symbols around the room and attune herself and her minions to them. The beguiler in my group will probally be smart and try to disable them. However I came across these two statements in the symbol of death description. Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally." Ok so they can see the symbol before they trigger it, making thier movement difficult. That makes sense until this part at the end. Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death. Ok so they can see it from 60ft away but need to search for it? How does this work? I'd ask my group but I don't want to ruin the suprise. I don't really want to have to stop the game for 10min while we debate it when it comes up. Right now I'm thinking the search chech is only needed for a covered,(therefore ineffective) traps.
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 12:38 PM	Well, a smart creature would place several runes throughout a building so that another will not look out of place. This means that yes, they will see the rune/symbol and will assume that it is another rune devoted to some force of magic. Perhaps they are even interesting to look at. The idea that I get from it is that a rogue can sense danger. By searching the area, the rogue gets the impression that something about the rune is not quite right, and without looking at it, covers it up. More powerful spells are more difficult to notice and disable (by getting too close, you may just set it off instead). If you can avoid setting it off, you have no problem disabling it. For a wizard with Telekinesis, disabling it would be extremely simple, as they can just take a wooden block or something and hide the runes so it cannot activate. This is just my interpretation, so someone who knows better might be better suited to answering this question.
olshanski_home 04-25-07, 12:42 PM	Regardless of the funky descriptions, the target area or blast zone or trigger area should be all detectable by a rogue's "search" skill. If there is a net trap 20 feet above on the ceiling, you could argue that search only has a range of 10 feet, so the rogue cannot detect it as a trap. It is much more fair to rule that the rogue can detect any component of the trap (trigger location, target location, or trap itself). This means that the rogue can detect the trap via the blast radius. (since search has a range of 10 feet, he can detect blast range from up to 70 feet from the actual symbol). As far as how "disabling" works, that is usually better left not described by the rules. The rogue's ability to disable traps is often a bone of contention, I'd usually describe it as the rogue somehow able to sneak up on the trap without triggering it, and then attempting to disable it. If he fails on disable device, he sets off the trap and is harmed by it.
Averroes 04-25-07, 04:37 PM	As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Looks at the rune seems problematic at best. I can already hear the argument over that one. It seems actually impossible not to see it. It says in the language that the symbol has to be displayed. So you move in 60' you see it. Boom! That seems kinda weak. This still doesn't answer my question as far as why a search is necessary. As you have to be able to see the rune. So why would one have to search for it? I might have this wrong. So help would be greatly apprecated. For my purposes I am planning on having them be more like land mines. To which the Devils will be using to thier advantage. So I'm not going to mess with the 'look' rule. Also it says in the description that if the trigger is touch trying to cover it activats it. So a wizard trying to cover them would actually activate them. I am actually thinking the trigger will be actual touch by any good aligned creatures as well as reading the rune.
olshanski_home 04-25-07, 04:43 PM	Well there is "ye olde graphitti" runes that mean nothing. A rogue would use his search skill at a range of about 65 feet to determine that there is evidence of a trap nearby. If the rogue succeeds on his DC33 search check (or whatever), then he has determined the presence of a magical trap. He has determined it by looking at the blast radius or some other give-away. I frankly don't know what exactly a rogue finds, but it is certainly nothing that a 20th level wizard or 20th level expert could find... but a 1st level rogue could... something about rogue training lets them find traps. In any case, having determined the presence of a symbol trap... even if he hasn't looked at the symbol from within 60 feet, he can either warn the party not to enter the dangerous zone, or else he can try to disarm the trap. Once a rogue is aware of a symbol trap, what's to stop him from closing his eyes and trying to close-in on the rune using his trap sense and whatnot in order to disable the trap? This seems like a reasonable use of disable device. On a failed roll, he accidentally looked at the rune, on a successful roll, he was able to approach and mar the rune without looking at it. Sometimes its best to accept the rules for what they are... abstractions. It isn't a good idea to apply real-world physics or beliefs about reality to D&D world. (fireballs underwater? people falling 200 feet and walking away?)
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 04:48 PM	As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Looks at the rune seems problematic at best. I can already hear the argument over that one. It seems actually impossible not to see it. It says in the language that the symbol has to be displayed. So you move in 60' you see it. Boom! That seems kinda weak. This still doesn't answer my question as far as why a search is necessary. As you have to be able to see the rune. So why would one have to search for it? I would follow olshanski_home's advice and keep it abstract. The search check is simply a mechanic of the game to realize that it is a trap. What would make someone think, "Oh, there is a rune on the wall. Clearly, that is a trap"? A smart caster would have placed other runes on the walls that had no effect, and this rune happens to have an effect. How would one distinguish a magical rune from a nonmagical one. Perhaps the search check is for the rogue to sense the magic. Perhaps it is for the rogue to figure out a way to avert his eyes while still investigating. Perhaps he needs to trick the magic to make it think he doesn't see, read, touch, or do any of those other things to the trap. If he succeeds, he knows that it is definitely a trap. If he fails by a little, there is no trap. If he fails by a lot, perhaps he even set the trap off, just as if he failed with a disable device check. Who knows what he is doing to discover that some random writing on the wall is a trap, but whatever it is, that is the mechanic for it. If he discovers it is a trap, then he needs to disable it. Once again, this is something that olshanski_home recommends to keep abstract, and again, I would have to agree with him. Who knows what a rogue might do to make it work. Perhaps he covers it up, or uses his dagger to screw it up. Whatever it is, it doesn't need to be explained.