Tail attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tail attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zedlar
04-23-08, 05:11 PM I created a new PC race for my campaign. This race has an adroit tail, and I've already listed that when a character of this race uses a full attack, they get an additional 'dex-based unarmed strike' against an adjacent creature other than the one which they are primarily attacking.

Does that make sense for how a tail attack would work?

Also, should he receive multi-weapon penalties to the attack rolls? It seems like giving him -4, -8 to his attack rolls would completely discourage him from using his tail. and getting ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting as a means to decreasethe penalty doesn't make sense, since it's not his other hand.

Are there any official rules for attacking with tertiary appendages? I can't find any.
tos_shai_hulud
04-23-08, 05:28 PM You are treating combat differently from my interpretation. My interpretation is that combat is not static. A creature does not stand in one place attacking. He could spin around 180 degrees in the middle of his attack, should that be his desire, and it would have no effect on his combat. This is because in 3.5, creatures do not have a facing. During a combat round, they are moving about as they desire. Within six seconds, a lot of movement can occur, especially to a trained fighter.

Because of this, limiting the tail attack to only a creature behind the character seems arbitrary to me. It seems to impose facing restrictions, as though the creature would not be able to spin around and slap the same foe he has been using his primary weapon against. I would think his tail would be usable as any of his other weapons.

Additionally, natural weapons usually fall under natural weapon rules, not two-weapon fighting rules. So, if the race is capable of using both manufactured weapons and tail attacks, then it would be a secondary natural weapon. He would be assessed a -5 penalty to his tail attack only, but no penalty to his primary weapon attack.
Sinfire Titan
04-23-08, 05:29 PM All attacks after the manufactured weapons or primary natural weapon are considered secondary. There is no such thing as a tertiary natural attack.

As to granting a race a Tail attack, the average medium creature's Tail Slap deals 1d8+1.5 Str.

The penalties for making extra attacks beyond the manufactured weapons are -5 to all of them. If you are using a primary natural weapon instead of a manufactured weapon, then the penalties apply to any natural weapons other than the primary ones (a creature with two claws as the primary weapon takes no penalties to those two claws, but assuming they also had another form of natural weapon in addition to the claws every attack but the first two claw attacks takes the -5).

The feats Multiattack and Improved Multiattack can remove the penalty or reduce it.

The average Tail Attack is based on the feats Dragon Tail and the Soulmeld of the same name (Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, respectively).

Remember that a creature can only make a single attack with each natural weapon listed (creatures with more than one claw, wing attacks, tentacles, multiple heads with bites, etc. can make a single attack with each instance of those natural weapons, assuming appropriate penalties). No creature gets multiple attacks from a High BAB with natural weapons.

If this is confusing you, just say so. I can clarify it for you.
tos_shai_hulud
04-23-08, 05:33 PM The feats Multiattack and Improved Multiattack can remove the penalty or reduce it.

Those feats are only available to a creature with at least three natural weapons. Unless he has two other natural attack options, he cannot take Multiattack nor Improved Multiattack.
Zedlar
04-23-08, 11:58 PM Thanks for the responses this is helping.

I do understand what you mean, and my ruling is starting to solidify in my mind. No one commented on making the attack DEX-based. When I was thinking about how it would work, it seemed to me like hitting someone with your tail after hitting them with your sword would be more about dexterity than strength... am I over-thinking it?

Also: If I just treat it as a second attack with a natural weapon, should I make him wait until he would normally get a second attack before he can use it? and if not, how should I treat it alongside the base second attack? What I mean is, once he gets his second attack from reaching attack bonus +6 (which would turn his tail attack into a third attack), should the tail attack get an additional -5 penalty, like a normal third attack would, or should I keep it at -5?

As far as damage, I've already decided to follow the 'unarmed attack' model for that (d3 nonlethal for a medium creature). What I haven't told the player is that I'm going to make tail-mounted weapons available to him later which will increase his damage. Giving his initial tail attack the damage of a Tail Swipe would be far overpowering, I think...
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-08, 12:20 AM What you are proposing (a dex-based unarmed strike) is not within the core rules. That is not to say that it is a bad idea, but this is not the forum for it. You should look in the House Rules forum. This forum is devoted to helping users understand the Rules as Written (RAW).

Unarmed strikes are not necessarily made with fists. They are punches, head-butts, kicks, elbows, shoulder thrusts, or whatever else you can think of. That means that your player could include his tail without granting an additional attack. The player could simply describe his action as, "I perform a spinning jump to slap my enemy across the face with my tail!" but that would be an ordinary unarmed attack. If you want the tail to be a natural weapon (which is what you seem to be describing), the only thing the rules provide for is a weapon that (usually) deals lethal damage. If it is always a secondary weapon, it ALWAYS takes a -5 penalty and ALWAYS deals 0.5x strength damage (even if the character decides to use it as their only attack for the round). Should you deem the tail attack to be a primary attack, then and only then can full strength bonus be applied to damage. Because it is a melee attack, the rules claim that the attack is a Strength-based attack, although with the Weapon Finesse feat, the player could choose strength or dexterity.

In essence, the RAW does not provide for what you are suggesting, but that does not make your suggestion wrong. Go to the House Rules forum and post your query there. They can help you find a solution beyond the RAW.
Zedlar
04-24-08, 01:11 AM What you are proposing (a dex-based unarmed strike) is not within the core rules. That is not to say that it is a bad idea, but this is not the forum for it. You should look in the House Rules forum. This forum is devoted to helping users understand the Rules as Written (RAW).

Unarmed strikes are not necessarily made with fists. They are punches, head-butts, kicks, elbows, shoulder thrusts, or whatever else you can think of. That means that your player could include his tail without granting an additional attack. The player could simply describe his action as, "I perform a spinning jump to slap my enemy across the face with my tail!" but that would be an ordinary unarmed attack. If you want the tail to be a natural weapon (which is what you seem to be describing), the only thing the rules provide for is a weapon that (usually) deals lethal damage. If it is always a secondary weapon, it ALWAYS takes a -5 penalty and ALWAYS deals 0.5x strength damage (even if the character decides to use it as their only attack for the round). Should you deem the tail attack to be a primary attack, then and only then can full strength bonus be applied to damage. Because it is a melee attack, the rules claim that the attack is a Strength-based attack, although with the Weapon Finesse feat, the player could choose strength or dexterity.

In essence, the RAW does not provide for what you are suggesting, but that does not make your suggestion wrong. Go to the House Rules forum and post your query there. They can help you find a solution beyond the RAW.

I'd like to follow the rules as much as possible, but I guess I'm not going to with the damage. Everything else, however, I want help with.

I thought that the .5x STR mod applys to off-hand weapons, not multiple attacks, have I been doing that wrong?
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-08, 03:18 AM You are confusing natural attacks with iterative attacks. When attacking with a manufactured weapon, you receive iterative attacks. If you have a +6 Base Attack Bonus, when making a full attack action, you may make one attack with a +6 bonus and another with a +1 bonus. This is not the case for natural attacks. If you have a primary natural attack, you may make one attack at full attack bonus, full strength bonus. If you have a secondary natural attack, you may make one attack at full attack bonus -5. If you are allowed to attack with both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon, your natural weapon is always secondary. This means that your attacks would be +6/+1 with the manufactured weapon and +1 with the natural weapon. If you decided to attack with only the natural weapon, you could never gain more than one attack, even though you have a base attack bonus that is eligible for iterative attacks.

That said, let's assume that the player decides to use two-weapon fighting. Let's assume that his off-hand weapon is light. Now, his bonuses are at a -4 to his primary weapon and -8 to his off-hand weapon. He receives the following attacks: +2/-3 primary weapon, -2 off-hand weapon, and +1 natural weapon. Notice that the two-weapon fighting penalties did not apply to the natural weapon. That is because two-weapon fighting penalties apply specifically to the primary and off-hand weapon.

Now, let's see what happens when we have a monk making a flurry of blows attack. Once again, we will assume a +6 base attack bonus and only one level of monk. If the monk decides to make a flurry of blows attack, he takes a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round. Unlike two-weapon fighting, this penalty applies to all attacks, so it applies to his natural weapon attack, as well. Now his attacks are at +4/+4/-1 flurry of blows (interchanging any monk weapons or unarmed strikes as he likes) and -1 for his tail attack.

Now, let's combine flurry of blows and two-weapon fighting with the tail attack, and just to complicate things further, we'll add in that the monk is holding shuriken, and starts off by throwing a shuriken, allowing him to use Rapid Shot and throw a second. Rapid Shot imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round, as well. And, finally, let's assume that he has both two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting. So his attacks are at +0/+0 shuriken +0/-5 flurry of blows (interchanging any monk weapons or unarmed strikes as he likes) +0/-5 off-hand and -3 for his tail attack. At this point, you might be wondering where these numbers come from, so I will break down each one. First of all, if the character has two-weapon fighting, he takes a -2 to his primary weapon and off-hand weapon. He takes a -2 to all attacks for flurry of blows, and he takes a -2 to all attacks from Rapid Shot. So, his normal +6 attacks go down to +0. He gets a second attack from rapid shot, a third attack from flurry of blows, and then his normal second iterative attack at a -5. Then, for his off-hand, he has the same +6 down to +0 and the second from Improved two-weapon fighting at -5. His tail attack is not affected by the two-weapon fighting, but takes a -4 from the flurry and rapid shot, so it goes from +1 to -3.

Does that make sense?

As far as damage, he gets full strength bonus for all of his primary attacks and half strength bonus for all of his off-hand attacks AND his tail attack.

The damage die you assign to his tail attack is completely up to you, although the standard for a medium creature is 1d8. That doesn't mean that all medium creatures with tails deal 1d8 damage. It means that is just what most medium creatures with tails deal. If you desire, you can set your player's tail attack to any damage die you like.
Zedlar
04-24-08, 09:54 AM Does that make sense?

It does. Thank you for taking the time to show me some examples. I have a question of clarification: You said that once he got his standard second attack (at BAB+6), his attacks (with the tail) would be +6/+1/+1. So, does that mean that once he got his standard third attack (at BAB+11) his attacks (with tail) would be +11/+6/+1/+1 or would it be +11/+6/+1/+6?

Also, I still don't understand this part:

As far as damage, he gets full strength bonus for all of his primary attacks and half strength bonus for all of his off-hand attacks AND his tail attack.

I understand what you mean, I just don't understand where it's coming from. I can't find anything anywhere that assigns half-strength bonus to anything other than 'weapons in the off-hand' specifically. Is it something in one of the monster manuals?

Thanks again for taking the time to help. I'm just starting a new campaign using 3.x rules for the first time (Last time I DMed was AD&D2)... So, I'll proly have a couple more questions as I get started :)
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-08, 10:04 AM It does. Thank you for taking the time to show me some examples. I have a question of clarification: You said that once he got his standard second attack (at BAB+6), his attacks (with the tail) would be +6/+1/+1. So, does that mean that once he got his standard third attack (at BAB+11) his attacks (with tail) would be +11/+6/+1/+1 or would it be +11/+6/+1/+6?

It would be +11/+6/+1 with the manufactured weapon and +6 with the tail.

Also, I still don't understand this part:

I understand what you mean, I just don't understand where it's coming from. I can't find anything anywhere that assigns half-strength bonus to anything other than 'weapons in the off-hand' specifically. Is it something in one of the monster manuals?

Thanks again for taking the time to help. I'm just starting a new campaign using 3.x rules for the first time (Last time I DMed was AD&D2)... So, I'll proly have a couple more questions as I get started :)

A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.
Zedlar
04-24-08, 10:16 AM Okay. I think I got it now. Thanks :) I'll report back if we run into confusion trying to use it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zedlar 04-23-08, 05:11 PM	I created a new PC race for my campaign. This race has an adroit tail, and I've already listed that when a character of this race uses a full attack, they get an additional 'dex-based unarmed strike' against an adjacent creature other than the one which they are primarily attacking. Does that make sense for how a tail attack would work? Also, should he receive multi-weapon penalties to the attack rolls? It seems like giving him -4, -8 to his attack rolls would completely discourage him from using his tail. and getting ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting as a means to decreasethe penalty doesn't make sense, since it's not his other hand. Are there any official rules for attacking with tertiary appendages? I can't find any.
tos_shai_hulud 04-23-08, 05:28 PM	You are treating combat differently from my interpretation. My interpretation is that combat is not static. A creature does not stand in one place attacking. He could spin around 180 degrees in the middle of his attack, should that be his desire, and it would have no effect on his combat. This is because in 3.5, creatures do not have a facing. During a combat round, they are moving about as they desire. Within six seconds, a lot of movement can occur, especially to a trained fighter. Because of this, limiting the tail attack to only a creature behind the character seems arbitrary to me. It seems to impose facing restrictions, as though the creature would not be able to spin around and slap the same foe he has been using his primary weapon against. I would think his tail would be usable as any of his other weapons. Additionally, natural weapons usually fall under natural weapon rules, not two-weapon fighting rules. So, if the race is capable of using both manufactured weapons and tail attacks, then it would be a secondary natural weapon. He would be assessed a -5 penalty to his tail attack only, but no penalty to his primary weapon attack.
Sinfire Titan 04-23-08, 05:29 PM	All attacks after the manufactured weapons or primary natural weapon are considered secondary. There is no such thing as a tertiary natural attack. As to granting a race a Tail attack, the average medium creature's Tail Slap deals 1d8+1.5 Str. The penalties for making extra attacks beyond the manufactured weapons are -5 to all of them. If you are using a primary natural weapon instead of a manufactured weapon, then the penalties apply to any natural weapons other than the primary ones (a creature with two claws as the primary weapon takes no penalties to those two claws, but assuming they also had another form of natural weapon in addition to the claws every attack but the first two claw attacks takes the -5). The feats Multiattack and Improved Multiattack can remove the penalty or reduce it. The average Tail Attack is based on the feats Dragon Tail and the Soulmeld of the same name (Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, respectively). Remember that a creature can only make a single attack with each natural weapon listed (creatures with more than one claw, wing attacks, tentacles, multiple heads with bites, etc. can make a single attack with each instance of those natural weapons, assuming appropriate penalties). No creature gets multiple attacks from a High BAB with natural weapons. If this is confusing you, just say so. I can clarify it for you.
tos_shai_hulud 04-23-08, 05:33 PM	The feats Multiattack and Improved Multiattack can remove the penalty or reduce it. Those feats are only available to a creature with at least three natural weapons. Unless he has two other natural attack options, he cannot take Multiattack nor Improved Multiattack.
Zedlar 04-23-08, 11:58 PM	Thanks for the responses this is helping. I do understand what you mean, and my ruling is starting to solidify in my mind. No one commented on making the attack DEX-based. When I was thinking about how it would work, it seemed to me like hitting someone with your tail after hitting them with your sword would be more about dexterity than strength... am I over-thinking it? Also: If I just treat it as a second attack with a natural weapon, should I make him wait until he would normally get a second attack before he can use it? and if not, how should I treat it alongside the base second attack? What I mean is, once he gets his second attack from reaching attack bonus +6 (which would turn his tail attack into a third attack), should the tail attack get an additional -5 penalty, like a normal third attack would, or should I keep it at -5? As far as damage, I've already decided to follow the 'unarmed attack' model for that (d3 nonlethal for a medium creature). What I haven't told the player is that I'm going to make tail-mounted weapons available to him later which will increase his damage. Giving his initial tail attack the damage of a Tail Swipe would be far overpowering, I think...
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-08, 12:20 AM	What you are proposing (a dex-based unarmed strike) is not within the core rules. That is not to say that it is a bad idea, but this is not the forum for it. You should look in the House Rules forum. This forum is devoted to helping users understand the Rules as Written (RAW). Unarmed strikes are not necessarily made with fists. They are punches, head-butts, kicks, elbows, shoulder thrusts, or whatever else you can think of. That means that your player could include his tail without granting an additional attack. The player could simply describe his action as, "I perform a spinning jump to slap my enemy across the face with my tail!" but that would be an ordinary unarmed attack. If you want the tail to be a natural weapon (which is what you seem to be describing), the only thing the rules provide for is a weapon that (usually) deals lethal damage. If it is always a secondary weapon, it ALWAYS takes a -5 penalty and ALWAYS deals 0.5x strength damage (even if the character decides to use it as their only attack for the round). Should you deem the tail attack to be a primary attack, then and only then can full strength bonus be applied to damage. Because it is a melee attack, the rules claim that the attack is a Strength-based attack, although with the Weapon Finesse feat, the player could choose strength or dexterity. In essence, the RAW does not provide for what you are suggesting, but that does not make your suggestion wrong. Go to the House Rules forum and post your query there. They can help you find a solution beyond the RAW.
Zedlar 04-24-08, 01:11 AM	What you are proposing (a dex-based unarmed strike) is not within the core rules. That is not to say that it is a bad idea, but this is not the forum for it. You should look in the House Rules forum. This forum is devoted to helping users understand the Rules as Written (RAW). Unarmed strikes are not necessarily made with fists. They are punches, head-butts, kicks, elbows, shoulder thrusts, or whatever else you can think of. That means that your player could include his tail without granting an additional attack. The player could simply describe his action as, "I perform a spinning jump to slap my enemy across the face with my tail!" but that would be an ordinary unarmed attack. If you want the tail to be a natural weapon (which is what you seem to be describing), the only thing the rules provide for is a weapon that (usually) deals lethal damage. If it is always a secondary weapon, it ALWAYS takes a -5 penalty and ALWAYS deals 0.5x strength damage (even if the character decides to use it as their only attack for the round). Should you deem the tail attack to be a primary attack, then and only then can full strength bonus be applied to damage. Because it is a melee attack, the rules claim that the attack is a Strength-based attack, although with the Weapon Finesse feat, the player could choose strength or dexterity. In essence, the RAW does not provide for what you are suggesting, but that does not make your suggestion wrong. Go to the House Rules forum and post your query there. They can help you find a solution beyond the RAW. I'd like to follow the rules as much as possible, but I guess I'm not going to with the damage. Everything else, however, I want help with. I thought that the .5x STR mod applys to off-hand weapons, not multiple attacks, have I been doing that wrong?
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-08, 03:18 AM	You are confusing natural attacks with iterative attacks. When attacking with a manufactured weapon, you receive iterative attacks. If you have a +6 Base Attack Bonus, when making a full attack action, you may make one attack with a +6 bonus and another with a +1 bonus. This is not the case for natural attacks. If you have a primary natural attack, you may make one attack at full attack bonus, full strength bonus. If you have a secondary natural attack, you may make one attack at full attack bonus -5. If you are allowed to attack with both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon, your natural weapon is always secondary. This means that your attacks would be +6/+1 with the manufactured weapon and +1 with the natural weapon. If you decided to attack with only the natural weapon, you could never gain more than one attack, even though you have a base attack bonus that is eligible for iterative attacks. That said, let's assume that the player decides to use two-weapon fighting. Let's assume that his off-hand weapon is light. Now, his bonuses are at a -4 to his primary weapon and -8 to his off-hand weapon. He receives the following attacks: +2/-3 primary weapon, -2 off-hand weapon, and +1 natural weapon. Notice that the two-weapon fighting penalties did not apply to the natural weapon. That is because two-weapon fighting penalties apply specifically to the primary and off-hand weapon. Now, let's see what happens when we have a monk making a flurry of blows attack. Once again, we will assume a +6 base attack bonus and only one level of monk. If the monk decides to make a flurry of blows attack, he takes a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round. Unlike two-weapon fighting, this penalty applies to all attacks, so it applies to his natural weapon attack, as well. Now his attacks are at +4/+4/-1 flurry of blows (interchanging any monk weapons or unarmed strikes as he likes) and -1 for his tail attack. Now, let's combine flurry of blows and two-weapon fighting with the tail attack, and just to complicate things further, we'll add in that the monk is holding shuriken, and starts off by throwing a shuriken, allowing him to use Rapid Shot and throw a second. Rapid Shot imposes a -2 penalty to all attacks in the round, as well. And, finally, let's assume that he has both two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting. So his attacks are at +0/+0 shuriken +0/-5 flurry of blows (interchanging any monk weapons or unarmed strikes as he likes) +0/-5 off-hand and -3 for his tail attack. At this point, you might be wondering where these numbers come from, so I will break down each one. First of all, if the character has two-weapon fighting, he takes a -2 to his primary weapon and off-hand weapon. He takes a -2 to all attacks for flurry of blows, and he takes a -2 to all attacks from Rapid Shot. So, his normal +6 attacks go down to +0. He gets a second attack from rapid shot, a third attack from flurry of blows, and then his normal second iterative attack at a -5. Then, for his off-hand, he has the same +6 down to +0 and the second from Improved two-weapon fighting at -5. His tail attack is not affected by the two-weapon fighting, but takes a -4 from the flurry and rapid shot, so it goes from +1 to -3. Does that make sense? As far as damage, he gets full strength bonus for all of his primary attacks and half strength bonus for all of his off-hand attacks AND his tail attack. The damage die you assign to his tail attack is completely up to you, although the standard for a medium creature is 1d8. That doesn't mean that all medium creatures with tails deal 1d8 damage. It means that is just what most medium creatures with tails deal. If you desire, you can set your player's tail attack to any damage die you like.
Zedlar 04-24-08, 09:54 AM	Does that make sense? It does. Thank you for taking the time to show me some examples. I have a question of clarification: You said that once he got his standard second attack (at BAB+6), his attacks (with the tail) would be +6/+1/+1. So, does that mean that once he got his standard third attack (at BAB+11) his attacks (with tail) would be +11/+6/+1/+1 or would it be +11/+6/+1/+6? Also, I still don't understand this part: As far as damage, he gets full strength bonus for all of his primary attacks and half strength bonus for all of his off-hand attacks AND his tail attack. I understand what you mean, I just don't understand where it's coming from. I can't find anything anywhere that assigns half-strength bonus to anything other than 'weapons in the off-hand' specifically. Is it something in one of the monster manuals? Thanks again for taking the time to help. I'm just starting a new campaign using 3.x rules for the first time (Last time I DMed was AD&D2)... So, I'll proly have a couple more questions as I get started :)
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-08, 10:04 AM	It does. Thank you for taking the time to show me some examples. I have a question of clarification: You said that once he got his standard second attack (at BAB+6), his attacks (with the tail) would be +6/+1/+1. So, does that mean that once he got his standard third attack (at BAB+11) his attacks (with tail) would be +11/+6/+1/+1 or would it be +11/+6/+1/+6? It would be +11/+6/+1 with the manufactured weapon and +6 with the tail. Also, I still don't understand this part: I understand what you mean, I just don't understand where it's coming from. I can't find anything anywhere that assigns half-strength bonus to anything other than 'weapons in the off-hand' specifically. Is it something in one of the monster manuals? Thanks again for taking the time to help. I'm just starting a new campaign using 3.x rules for the first time (Last time I DMed was AD&D2)... So, I'll proly have a couple more questions as I get started :) A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1½ times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only ½ the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses.
Zedlar 04-24-08, 10:16 AM	Okay. I think I got it now. Thanks :) I'll report back if we run into confusion trying to use it.