The Fire House Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Fire House Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
El_ahrairah
06-26-07, 01:08 PM Hello all,
All constructive feedback/personal experience appreciated:
I recently ran an encounter at an Inn in the countryside that involved heavy use of fire rules, something that seems only brushed upon in the DMG.
The PCs wake to find that portions of the Inn are on fire, as an Orog and several orcs have caught up with them for the purpose of vengeance (they killed the Orog'sother two brothers, this is the epilogue of the module, Sons of Gruumsh).
The map I made had specific areas on certain floors on fire. I ruled that a fire only 5'x5' is only a fire threat if you run through it, but that any fire larger than that, required a PC to make a reflex save to avoid catching on fire. The roll would be fairly simple, DC 10 or such, simply to reflect that the fire is large enough to endanger the character if they got too close, but not so dangerous that every square of movement had them catching on fire. I had the PCs roll for every square of movement.
As far as fire spreading, I just made a rule individually for that fire, to increase tension. The PC's would be getting attacked by orcs, and possibly helping other inn customers during the blaze. I made a timeline for the blaze: On round 6, all fire squares spread to one adjacent square, the same for round 12, etc... No real research or real scientific value, just a simple rule to indicate the fire is spreading.
My real problem with the fire damage rule presented in the DMG is that, if on fire, the PC need only make a reflex roll to put out the fire.
I don't have the entire rule set out yet, but I was thinking somewhere along the lines of this:
The reflex roll should be treated as either a move or standard action. If a full-round action is used, a better bonus is applied, and if a full round action is used to stop, drop, and roll, the fire would be put out automatically (or get a superior bonus than a regular action).
Every round a character is on fire, the DC goes up by 2.
If a character moves more than 5' while on fire, the cumalative DC to put it out goes up by 2. If a character moves more than their regular move (ie double move, charge), the cumalative DC goes up by 4.
I've also considered having damage increase every other round.

I'm still hashing it all out, and toying with possibilities. I want a more intricate fire system, but not something that will have everyone tearing their hair out.

Any of you have a good system in place? Comments?
weasel0
06-26-07, 02:33 PM Heh, I've played throught this one. They caught us at the dinner. It was rather fun. And short. We took all but one out on the one side with sleep and fireballed the other side the next round leaving 1 orog and 3 really burnt orcs. We then used water spells and normal fire fighting procedures to put everything out. Total time: about 4 rounds then 5min to put fire out.

I like the DCs and such, but this fire seems to be moving at a phenominal rate of speed.
El_ahrairah
06-26-07, 03:05 PM Yeah, maybe fire spreads at 10 and 20 rounds? Or 15 and 30.
weasel0
06-26-07, 04:02 PM With a nice, dry, full of burnable things, inn, 5' per min sounds good. Esp. since they're waking up with the fire already in progress(and should be in a few different spots). And if say the orcs are sadistic and throw extra combustable things in from time to time, then it could spread faster.
Anathema
06-26-07, 06:11 PM The DMG II actually covers burning buildings in its archetypal locations section; page 48.
El_ahrairah
06-26-07, 07:06 PM That's good to know, I'll check it out. Thanks!
Phrennzy
06-26-07, 10:08 PM With a nice, dry, full of burnable things, inn, 5' per min sounds good. Esp. since they're waking up with the fire already in progress(and should be in a few different spots). And if say the orcs are sadistic and throw extra combustable things in from time to time, then it could spread faster.

A nice, dry full of burnable things goes up faster than 5' per minute. Fire can be ungodly quick, especially if the inn is composed of wood and its' the dry season.
weasel0
06-27-07, 12:53 AM Mmmm, i do tend to think single-mindedly in terms of an always humid area.
Anathema
06-27-07, 01:15 AM Q: "How fast should a fire burn?"

A: "Fast enough to be dangerous and exciting, but slow enough to provide escape."
JustinA
06-27-07, 05:58 AM The DMG II actually covers burning buildings in its archetypal locations section; page 48.

I've found the DMG II rules for burning buildings to be fairly frustrating. They have a marginal utility in designing an encounter with a building engulfed in flames. But they noticeably lack any rules for how such a fire might be started, prevented, or put out. The rules for how such a fire spreads are minimalistic almost to the point of non-existence (the fire spreads to a new 10' by 10' area every minute -- which, paradoxically, means that the larger a fire is the longer it will take for it to spread outward). The rules also suggest reducing PC interactions with a burning building to a series of abstract skill checks encompassing several rounds at a time, oddly distancing them from what should be a fast-paced and dangerous encounter.

I've put together a set of rules for handling fires. They can be found at:

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/fire.html

They have been released under the OGL.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
El_ahrairah
06-27-07, 07:32 AM Very nice, Justin. It seems really sharp, I'll scrutinize it more closely when I'm not in a pre-work coma. :)

I'll still need to alter the reflex saves for putting out oneself, it just doesn't sit right.
Phrennzy
06-27-07, 09:03 AM Q: "How fast should a fire burn?"

A: "Fast enough to be dangerous and exciting, but slow enough to provide escape."

:thumbsup:
Fitz10019
06-29-07, 06:05 PM If a character moves more than 5' while on fire, the cumalative DC to put it out goes up by 2. If a character moves more than their regular move (ie double move, charge), the cumalative DC goes up by 4.

Sounds very exciting, and well thought-out.

One reservation: I don't see why moving faster (double movement in your 6-second turn means you moved faster, not that you spent more time moving) would increase the cumulative DC. You might even want to impose a concentration check requirement to walk instead of run while on fire. Or to do anything other than running or putting it out.
Heros_Backpack
06-29-07, 07:50 PM One reservation: I don't see why moving faster (double movement in your 6-second turn means you moved faster, not that you spent more time moving) would increase the cumulative DC. You might even want to impose a concentration check requirement to walk instead of run while on fire. Or to do anything other than running or putting it out.

Perhaps because moving faster means the air around you is moving past faster, so it is fanning the flames better - therefore the flames are burning better and are harder to put out?

For smaller or 'just-started' fires, I've always used an adaptation of Flaming Sphere - 1d6 dam and roll in a random direction each (designate time - often 1 round/minute) but those rules look better for larger fires.
pheron
06-29-07, 11:59 PM Doyou want a cinemic fire, then go for your idea of something that grows very slowly. If you're looking for something with more reality then the fire needs to grow fast. a lit christmas tree can take a room for small fire toi flashover (the point where *everything burnable bursts into flame) is about 45 seconds. With less flammable conditions it can take up to four or five minutes. But at that point evenyone in the room -- unprotected -- is dead.
Movies make fires look much easier to deal with than they really are. The housa across the street from mine burned down. You could not go charging in unless you had some sort of protection. The heat is simply too intense.
JustinA
07-02-07, 01:27 AM Very nice, Justin. It seems really sharp, I'll scrutinize it more closely when I'm not in a pre-work coma. :)

Thanks. :)

I'll still need to alter the reflex saves for putting out oneself, it just doesn't sit right.

Yeah. I like a lot of the rules I'm seeing bandied about in here.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
H4w00dJ48l0m3
07-23-07, 11:08 PM a real fire spreads unbelievably fast, but that's a cheesy way to slide in a TPK.

...I just read Justin's 'fire as a construct.' That's AWESOME, Dude! I am Totally gonna use that soon.:evillaugh
Finarin Panjoro
07-25-07, 12:02 PM I agree Justin's 'fire as construct' idea is brilliant. Very well done.

I would like to see an easier way of handling fire spreading. Tracking the hit points of each square would become a logistical nightmare for an already overworked DM. I suggest that if the fire attacks a neighboring square and if it scores greater than half damage with the attack it moves into that square. Another thought is that if a player start or ends his movement in a square that is on fire he takes fire damage. Thus if the fire moves into his square before he can move out of it he takes damage. This also means the fire can 'concentrate' on spreading while still effectively attacking nearby creatures.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
El_ahrairah 06-26-07, 01:08 PM	Hello all, All constructive feedback/personal experience appreciated: I recently ran an encounter at an Inn in the countryside that involved heavy use of fire rules, something that seems only brushed upon in the DMG. The PCs wake to find that portions of the Inn are on fire, as an Orog and several orcs have caught up with them for the purpose of vengeance (they killed the Orog'sother two brothers, this is the epilogue of the module, Sons of Gruumsh). The map I made had specific areas on certain floors on fire. I ruled that a fire only 5'x5' is only a fire threat if you run through it, but that any fire larger than that, required a PC to make a reflex save to avoid catching on fire. The roll would be fairly simple, DC 10 or such, simply to reflect that the fire is large enough to endanger the character if they got too close, but not so dangerous that every square of movement had them catching on fire. I had the PCs roll for every square of movement. As far as fire spreading, I just made a rule individually for that fire, to increase tension. The PC's would be getting attacked by orcs, and possibly helping other inn customers during the blaze. I made a timeline for the blaze: On round 6, all fire squares spread to one adjacent square, the same for round 12, etc... No real research or real scientific value, just a simple rule to indicate the fire is spreading. My real problem with the fire damage rule presented in the DMG is that, if on fire, the PC need only make a reflex roll to put out the fire. I don't have the entire rule set out yet, but I was thinking somewhere along the lines of this: The reflex roll should be treated as either a move or standard action. If a full-round action is used, a better bonus is applied, and if a full round action is used to stop, drop, and roll, the fire would be put out automatically (or get a superior bonus than a regular action). Every round a character is on fire, the DC goes up by 2. If a character moves more than 5' while on fire, the cumalative DC to put it out goes up by 2. If a character moves more than their regular move (ie double move, charge), the cumalative DC goes up by 4. I've also considered having damage increase every other round. I'm still hashing it all out, and toying with possibilities. I want a more intricate fire system, but not something that will have everyone tearing their hair out. Any of you have a good system in place? Comments?
weasel0 06-26-07, 02:33 PM	Heh, I've played throught this one. They caught us at the dinner. It was rather fun. And short. We took all but one out on the one side with sleep and fireballed the other side the next round leaving 1 orog and 3 really burnt orcs. We then used water spells and normal fire fighting procedures to put everything out. Total time: about 4 rounds then 5min to put fire out. I like the DCs and such, but this fire seems to be moving at a phenominal rate of speed.
El_ahrairah 06-26-07, 03:05 PM	Yeah, maybe fire spreads at 10 and 20 rounds? Or 15 and 30.
weasel0 06-26-07, 04:02 PM	With a nice, dry, full of burnable things, inn, 5' per min sounds good. Esp. since they're waking up with the fire already in progress(and should be in a few different spots). And if say the orcs are sadistic and throw extra combustable things in from time to time, then it could spread faster.
Anathema 06-26-07, 06:11 PM	The DMG II actually covers burning buildings in its archetypal locations section; page 48.
El_ahrairah 06-26-07, 07:06 PM	That's good to know, I'll check it out. Thanks!
Phrennzy 06-26-07, 10:08 PM	With a nice, dry, full of burnable things, inn, 5' per min sounds good. Esp. since they're waking up with the fire already in progress(and should be in a few different spots). And if say the orcs are sadistic and throw extra combustable things in from time to time, then it could spread faster. A nice, dry full of burnable things goes up faster than 5' per minute. Fire can be ungodly quick, especially if the inn is composed of wood and its' the dry season.
weasel0 06-27-07, 12:53 AM	Mmmm, i do tend to think single-mindedly in terms of an always humid area.
Anathema 06-27-07, 01:15 AM	Q: "How fast should a fire burn?" A: "Fast enough to be dangerous and exciting, but slow enough to provide escape."
JustinA 06-27-07, 05:58 AM	The DMG II actually covers burning buildings in its archetypal locations section; page 48. I've found the DMG II rules for burning buildings to be fairly frustrating. They have a marginal utility in designing an encounter with a building engulfed in flames. But they noticeably lack any rules for how such a fire might be started, prevented, or put out. The rules for how such a fire spreads are minimalistic almost to the point of non-existence (the fire spreads to a new 10' by 10' area every minute -- which, paradoxically, means that the larger a fire is the longer it will take for it to spread outward). The rules also suggest reducing PC interactions with a burning building to a series of abstract skill checks encompassing several rounds at a time, oddly distancing them from what should be a fast-paced and dangerous encounter. I've put together a set of rules for handling fires. They can be found at: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/fire.html They have been released under the OGL. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
El_ahrairah 06-27-07, 07:32 AM	Very nice, Justin. It seems really sharp, I'll scrutinize it more closely when I'm not in a pre-work coma. :) I'll still need to alter the reflex saves for putting out oneself, it just doesn't sit right.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 09:03 AM	Q: "How fast should a fire burn?" A: "Fast enough to be dangerous and exciting, but slow enough to provide escape." :thumbsup:
Fitz10019 06-29-07, 06:05 PM	If a character moves more than 5' while on fire, the cumalative DC to put it out goes up by 2. If a character moves more than their regular move (ie double move, charge), the cumalative DC goes up by 4. Sounds very exciting, and well thought-out. One reservation: I don't see why moving faster (double movement in your 6-second turn means you moved faster, not that you spent more time moving) would increase the cumulative DC. You might even want to impose a concentration check requirement to walk instead of run while on fire. Or to do anything other than running or putting it out.
Heros_Backpack 06-29-07, 07:50 PM	One reservation: I don't see why moving faster (double movement in your 6-second turn means you moved faster, not that you spent more time moving) would increase the cumulative DC. You might even want to impose a concentration check requirement to walk instead of run while on fire. Or to do anything other than running or putting it out. Perhaps because moving faster means the air around you is moving past faster, so it is fanning the flames better - therefore the flames are burning better and are harder to put out? For smaller or 'just-started' fires, I've always used an adaptation of Flaming Sphere - 1d6 dam and roll in a random direction each (designate time - often 1 round/minute) but those rules look better for larger fires.
pheron 06-29-07, 11:59 PM	Doyou want a cinemic fire, then go for your idea of something that grows very slowly. If you're looking for something with more reality then the fire needs to grow fast. a lit christmas tree can take a room for small fire toi flashover (the point where *everything burnable bursts into flame) is about 45 seconds. With less flammable conditions it can take up to four or five minutes. But at that point evenyone in the room -- unprotected -- is dead. Movies make fires look much easier to deal with than they really are. The housa across the street from mine burned down. You could not go charging in unless you had some sort of protection. The heat is simply too intense.
JustinA 07-02-07, 01:27 AM	Very nice, Justin. It seems really sharp, I'll scrutinize it more closely when I'm not in a pre-work coma. :) Thanks. :) I'll still need to alter the reflex saves for putting out oneself, it just doesn't sit right. Yeah. I like a lot of the rules I'm seeing bandied about in here. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
H4w00dJ48l0m3 07-23-07, 11:08 PM	a real fire spreads unbelievably fast, but that's a cheesy way to slide in a TPK. ...I just read Justin's 'fire as a construct.' That's AWESOME, Dude! I am Totally gonna use that soon.:evillaugh
Finarin Panjoro 07-25-07, 12:02 PM	I agree Justin's 'fire as construct' idea is brilliant. Very well done. I would like to see an easier way of handling fire spreading. Tracking the hit points of each square would become a logistical nightmare for an already overworked DM. I suggest that if the fire attacks a neighboring square and if it scores greater than half damage with the attack it moves into that square. Another thought is that if a player start or ends his movement in a square that is on fire he takes fire damage. Thus if the fire moves into his square before he can move out of it he takes damage. This also means the fire can 'concentrate' on spreading while still effectively attacking nearby creatures.