Tiger + TWF = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tiger + TWF = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-06-08, 05:56 PM Dagger spell shaper + TWF + Improved TWF + Greater TWF + Dancing Mongoose + wildshaped into tiger form = how many attacks on a pounce? At what to hit bonuses? And in what order? What happens when we change Dancing mongoose to Searing Blade?
Silvercrys
03-06-08, 07:27 PM I'm fairly certain Tigers can not fight with two daggers.

That said, if you could say which rule lets them, and what class levels/ability bonuses the character has, I could probably help.

(Along with any feats that may add to hit bonuses like Weapon Focus)
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-06-08, 08:03 PM Dagger spell shaper, Complete adventurer page 37, I think. Also gains weapon focus, either claw or dagger ala swordsage level 1 taken at around 15ish level.
Crimson_Concerto
03-06-08, 08:11 PM A Tiger's natural claw attacks don't get iterative attacks, so not only would your BAB not factor into that, but I don't think TWF, etc. help at all...
UltimateReality
03-06-08, 08:20 PM I'm fairly certain Tigers can not fight with two daggers.

That said, if you could say which rule lets them, and what class levels/ability bonuses the character has, I could probably help.

(Along with any feats that may add to hit bonuses like Weapon Focus)
I'm the DM the build is being presented to. *smiles and waves*

Perhaps it would help to restate the question(s):
1. Can a wild shaped druid use TWF on their natural attacks? If so, how does it work?
2. Can a wild shaped druid use Dancing Mongoose with its natural attacks? If so, how does it work?

As to #1, I think this is where TPK was going with it: Dagger Spell Shapers of 2nd level or higher have a "Dagger Claw" ability that lets them add any magical properties of daggers they're holding to the natural attacks of their wild shaped form. The example given uses a +1 flaming dagger and a +2 keen dagger in the other. It states that if the character turns into a leopard, one of her claw attacks becomes a +1 flaming claw, and the other becomes a +2 keen claw. TPK thinks this implies that you're still sort of fighting with the weapons. Also, the PrC requires TWF to get into, and he argues they would not require a feat that was useless to the character in wild shape when the vast majority of the PrC is based on being in wild shape.

Here's my alternate opinion:
A. Nowhere does TWF state anything about what happens if you're using natural weapons.
B. Animals already have Multiattack, a feat clearly similar to TWF but explicitly meant for use with natural attacks.
C. Dagger Claw only lets you apply magical enhancements to your natural attacks -- you're still using claw attacks, and not daggers.
D. The designers often included nearly-dead feats for PrC reqs, and TWF is still useful to the character if they're not in wild shape.

As to question #2, I'd let Dancing Mongoose work on a druid wild shaped into, say, a tiger. You still only get 2 extra attacks, and you'd be silly NOT to use them on your claw attacks (especially once you have the Dagger Claw ability), but there you have it.

ETA:

Bonus question: can a druid wild shaped into a tiger use Dancing Mongoose when pouncing? My call is yes, because a full round states you can take a free action, and the Swift Action rule says you can do one per turn and can take it any time you'd normally be allowed to take a free action.
Heros_Backpack
03-06-08, 08:42 PM With respect to natural weapons, TWF says simply that you can make an attack with a weapon in your off-hand. An unarmed strike (aka punch) is a weapon and could be used.

I would be inclined to house-rule a compromise between TWF and Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting.

Since the main difference between them is that TWF allows 2 weapons and both Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting both require three weapon/attacks or more, I would say that in wild shape, the TWF bonus applies to only one secondary attack while the Multi whatever bonus applies to all secondary attacks.

Would this be fair?
Crimson_Concerto
03-06-08, 08:43 PM Perhaps it would help to restate the question(s):
1. Can a wild shaped druid use TWF on their natural attacks? If so, how does it work?Ah, okay. Your questions seem more easily answerable.

No, natural attacks do not benefit from TWF or its derivatives because natural attacks are not off-hand weapons. Furthermore, as I stated before, natural attacks do not gain the benefit of iterative attacks for having a high BAB.

2. Can a wild shaped druid use Dancing Mongoose with its natural attacks? If so, how does it work?Sure. Natural weapons are still considered wielded. It works the same as usual. He would gain one extra attack with each of his claws and his bite attack with the normal Dancing Mongoose restriction that they must all be versus the same opponent.
EDIT: It may be worth mentioning that claws are in fact a favored weapon of the Tiger Claw discipline. There's no reason to assume the maneuvers don't work with natural attacks.

Also, the PrC requires TWF to get into, and he argues they would not require a feat that was useless to the character in wild shape when the vast majority of the PrC is based on being in wild shape.Nope. TWF is useless in Wildshape. Sorry.

As to question #2, I'd let Dancing Mongoose work on a druid wild shaped into, say, a tiger. You still only get 2 extra attacks, and you'd be silly NOT to use them on your claw attacks (especially once you have the Dagger Claw ability), but there you have it.Actually, a Tiger using the maneuver would get 3 extra attacks. It has two claws and a bite, and all weapons would benefit.
EDIT: Never mind. I just reread the maneuver and it specifies a maximum of two extra attacks. Please disregard...

Bonus question: can a druid wild shaped into a tiger use Dancing Mongoose when pouncing? My call is yes, because a full round states you can take a free action, and the Swift Action rule says you can do one per turn and can take it any time you'd normally be allowed to take a free action.You are correct. Dancing Mongoose can indeed be used when pouncing.
Muddman72
03-06-08, 08:46 PM Ok here is what I understand:

Question 1: TWF w/ natural attacks? No, they get multiattack but they don't get extra attacks from TWF since they already get claw/claw/bite. They wouldn't get claw claw claw claw bite, it simply doesn't work.

Question #2: Dancing mongoose technique? You must be fighting with two weapons. So for the same reason as #1, you're not using two weapons, your using natural weapons. Its the same as a were tiger using Dancing Mogoose, they can't without using two actual daggers.

Sorry dude, this just ain't working as far as I can see
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-06-08, 09:11 PM Ok here is what I understand:

Question 1: TWF w/ natural attacks? No, they get multiattack but they don't get extra attacks from TWF since they already get claw/claw/bite. They wouldn't get claw claw claw claw bite, it simply doesn't work.

Question #2: Dancing mongoose technique? You must be fighting with two weapons. So for the same reason as #1, you're not using two weapons, your using natural weapons. Its the same as a were tiger using Dancing Mogoose, they can't without using two actual daggers.

Sorry dude, this just ain't working as far as I can see

Do you mind sourcing these? Its not that I don't believe you, its just that they contradict the rules for natural weapons. Natural weapons are considered weapons, and if one were a monk one could use their "left" hand as an off hand weapon, why not the south paw? Further TWF does not require a base attack bonus, nor does it say anywhere that it requires an iterative attack bonus to work. It simply states that you get an extra attack with your off hand. The question as I see it can a natural attack, in this case claw, be considered an off hand weapon? I know there are rulings, particularly with monks, that rules a natural weapon is/can be used as an off hand weapon. Could someone show me were this has been changed, or were it is explicitly stated that a animals natural weapons do not count for an off hand atatck?
Crimson_Concerto
03-06-08, 10:40 PM TWF does not require a base attack bonus, nor does it say anywhere that it requires an iterative attack bonus to work.Be that as it may, if you read the text of the TWF feat you'll see that a tiger would gain absolutely no benefit from it, since it doesn't take any penalties for fighting with its two natural weapons.

Fighting with natural weapons is different than normal fighting. There's no such thing as a primary hand or off hand where natural attacks are concerned. There are primary natural weapons and secondary natural weapons, but that's hardly the same thing.

The question as I see it can a natural attack, in this case claw, be considered an off hand weapon?No, it cannot. Now, you bring up monks, but here's the thing: Monks are weird and special. Their weapons are unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and manufactured weapons all at the same time, and they benefit from each in different ways. By default, natural attacks can't me primary hand or off hand weapons; they follow no such distinction or categorization. Instead, they can be primary or secondary natural weapons, which is decidedly different.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-06-08, 11:11 PM Be that as it may, if you read the text of the TWF feat you'll see that a tiger would gain absolutely no benefit from it, since it doesn't take any penalties for fighting with its two natural weapons.

Fighting with natural weapons is different than normal fighting. There's no such thing as a primary hand or off hand where natural attacks are concerned. There are primary natural weapons and secondary natural weapons, but that's hardly the same thing.

No, it cannot. Now, you bring up monks, but here's the thing: Monks are weird and special. Their weapons are unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and manufactured weapons all at the same time, and they benefit from each in different ways. By default, natural attacks can't me primary hand or off hand weapons; they follow no such distinction or categorization. Instead, they can be primary or secondary natural weapons, which is decidedly different.

I see the wisedom of your words. I have but one question left:

1) Why would the vast majority of Daggerspell shapers abilities only benefit it while in wild shape, it require a feat that is not usable while in wildshape?
Silvercrys
03-07-08, 07:55 AM Because they are linked through an organization to the Daggerspell Mage, whos abilities all relate to casting spells while wielding two daggers.

EDIT: The Master of Nine (Tome of Battle) requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and has nothing to do with attacking unarmed in particular. And the Order of the Bow Initiate requires ranks in Craft(Bowmaking). Prestige classes sometimes have prerequisites that are thematic only, and don't benefit class abilites at all.
tos_shai_hulud
03-07-08, 11:20 AM I would recommend Warshaper. This would allow you to keep tiger form while wielding two daggers (you use your druidic ability to take tiger form and the Warshaper ability to change your front paws back into hands). The DM would need to approve the change, as the tiger would be required to run on two hands and two claws in order to make the initial charge attack, but after it charges, it could attack as normal with the daggers, plus get its bite attack and two rake attacks (as secondary natural attacks).
Kouk
03-07-08, 02:21 PM Something I have thought about for a while, why couldn't an intelligent "animal" such as a Wildshaped Druid or a Shifter give up his "inherent" ability to attack like an animal?

Tigers have "2 claws and bite" as a full attack. Claws have the same attack bonus, bite is at -5 (secondary weapon).

Is that stronger or weaker than requiring the tiger to choose a paw as a "main hand" and the other is the "off hand", and the bite is a secondary natural attack?

The attack bonus on the paws is lower if you use TWF. If you just let the Druid animal attack like a normal PC, they will only get a maximum of 6 attacks (assuming relatively pure classed in regards to BAB) and it takes 3 feats and a pretty high Dex score to work.

Consider the Troglodyte or Lizardfolk. They can attack with weapons and bites and such. Of course, their damage is lower on their natural weapons, but they can use manufactured ones.

If you let the Druid take TWF for Wildshape though, don't allow the character to take Multiattack.

If you do it this way, everyone's happy. The player gets to use his TWF feats, and the DM doesn't have to learn more special rules.

Or maybe you could just remove the Bite attack altogether for a PC.

Is there some weird excessive power loophole I'm missing with this? The character will have extra attacks, but the same number as any other character with the same feats and BAB (plus or minus the Bite attack) and he can't use most of his equipment. Maybe some Druid spell makes this unworkable, I don't know. A gentleman's agreement not to use any loophole could still work though.
weasel0
03-08-08, 05:02 AM [Troglodyte]Full Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) and claw –1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6)Lizardfolk is near identical.

It's still using the same attack method as it's natural attacks, and as a monster, will never go up to multiple attacks from BAB as it's still only attacking, hand hand bite. It's merely substituted the weapons it doing dmg with. (which I feel is supported by the fact that they are assigned multiattack as they're feat of choice)
tos_shai_hulud
03-08-08, 04:54 PM Lizardfolk is near identical.

It's still using the same attack method as it's natural attacks, and as a monster, will never go up to multiple attacks from BAB as it's still only attacking, hand hand bite. It's merely substituted the weapons it doing dmg with. (which I feel is supported by the fact that they are assigned multiattack as they're feat of choice)

This has been covered in the FAQ. I don't have time to quote it all out, but likely someone else could. In general, the idea is that the Troglodyte is combining manufactured and natural attacks. If you look, the claw attack is at a -1, not a +1. This is because it is treated as a secondary natural attack (and the Troglodyte has multiattack, making all secondary attacks at -2). This means that if the Troglodyte were a 16th level fighter, his attack progression would be:

Club +17/+12/+7/+2, Claw +15, Bite +15

This is because the club, as a manufactured weapon, is assessed the same attacks as a normal melee attack while the natural weapons (claw and bite) are natural weapons and gain only one attack.

In the instance of the tiger with two claw attacks and a bite attack the tiger does not receive additional bonuses for a high base attack bonus because he is attacking with natural weapons, but if the tiger wanted, he could attack with unarmed strike. Now, it is entirely up to the DM what to allow for this. I, personally, like the ingenuity and would grant the tiger his full complement of unarmed strikes (with the front claws, treating it almost as if he were a human wearing a slashing variant of guantlets). I would also allow his bite attack in a full attack action as a secondary natural attack (manufactured weapons always count as primary attacks).
calronmoonflower
03-08-08, 07:39 PM I looked up Dancing Mongoose and it seems that it can be applied to natural weapons.

On a pounce a tiger gets 2 claws, a bite, and 2 rake attacks. With the boost you can double this to 10 attacks.

If you pick up a level in monk you will also be allowed unarmed strikes while wild shaped, but that is about the only way to get those two-weapon fighting benefits in tiger form.

For Searing Blade it is a standard action (misprint?) with no attack allowed :rolleyes: . If you do the logical thing and fix it you get the standard 5 attacks.
Crimson_Concerto
03-09-08, 01:52 AM On a pounce a tiger gets 2 claws, a bite, and 2 rake attacks. With the boost you can double this to 10 attacks.No. Dancing Mongoose specifies a maximum of 2 extra attacks.
calronmoonflower
03-09-08, 03:37 AM No. Dancing Mongoose specifies a maximum of 2 extra attacks.

Opps, make it seven.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-06-08, 05:56 PM	Dagger spell shaper + TWF + Improved TWF + Greater TWF + Dancing Mongoose + wildshaped into tiger form = how many attacks on a pounce? At what to hit bonuses? And in what order? What happens when we change Dancing mongoose to Searing Blade?
Silvercrys 03-06-08, 07:27 PM	I'm fairly certain Tigers can not fight with two daggers. That said, if you could say which rule lets them, and what class levels/ability bonuses the character has, I could probably help. (Along with any feats that may add to hit bonuses like Weapon Focus)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-06-08, 08:03 PM	Dagger spell shaper, Complete adventurer page 37, I think. Also gains weapon focus, either claw or dagger ala swordsage level 1 taken at around 15ish level.
Crimson_Concerto 03-06-08, 08:11 PM	A Tiger's natural claw attacks don't get iterative attacks, so not only would your BAB not factor into that, but I don't think TWF, etc. help at all...
UltimateReality 03-06-08, 08:20 PM	I'm fairly certain Tigers can not fight with two daggers. That said, if you could say which rule lets them, and what class levels/ability bonuses the character has, I could probably help. (Along with any feats that may add to hit bonuses like Weapon Focus) I'm the DM the build is being presented to. smiles and waves Perhaps it would help to restate the question(s): 1. Can a wild shaped druid use TWF on their natural attacks? If so, how does it work? 2. Can a wild shaped druid use Dancing Mongoose with its natural attacks? If so, how does it work? As to #1, I think this is where TPK was going with it: Dagger Spell Shapers of 2nd level or higher have a "Dagger Claw" ability that lets them add any magical properties of daggers they're holding to the natural attacks of their wild shaped form. The example given uses a +1 flaming dagger and a +2 keen dagger in the other. It states that if the character turns into a leopard, one of her claw attacks becomes a +1 flaming claw, and the other becomes a +2 keen claw. TPK thinks this implies that you're still sort of fighting with the weapons. Also, the PrC requires TWF to get into, and he argues they would not require a feat that was useless to the character in wild shape when the vast majority of the PrC is based on being in wild shape. Here's my alternate opinion: A. Nowhere does TWF state anything about what happens if you're using natural weapons. B. Animals already have Multiattack, a feat clearly similar to TWF but explicitly meant for use with natural attacks. C. Dagger Claw only lets you apply magical enhancements to your natural attacks -- you're still using claw attacks, and not daggers. D. The designers often included nearly-dead feats for PrC reqs, and TWF is still useful to the character if they're not in wild shape. As to question #2, I'd let Dancing Mongoose work on a druid wild shaped into, say, a tiger. You still only get 2 extra attacks, and you'd be silly NOT to use them on your claw attacks (especially once you have the Dagger Claw ability), but there you have it. ETA: Bonus question: can a druid wild shaped into a tiger use Dancing Mongoose when pouncing? My call is yes, because a full round states you can take a free action, and the Swift Action rule says you can do one per turn and can take it any time you'd normally be allowed to take a free action.
Heros_Backpack 03-06-08, 08:42 PM	With respect to natural weapons, TWF says simply that you can make an attack with a weapon in your off-hand. An unarmed strike (aka punch) is a weapon and could be used. I would be inclined to house-rule a compromise between TWF and Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting. Since the main difference between them is that TWF allows 2 weapons and both Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting both require three weapon/attacks or more, I would say that in wild shape, the TWF bonus applies to only one secondary attack while the Multi whatever bonus applies to all secondary attacks. Would this be fair?
Crimson_Concerto 03-06-08, 08:43 PM	Perhaps it would help to restate the question(s): 1. Can a wild shaped druid use TWF on their natural attacks? If so, how does it work?Ah, okay. Your questions seem more easily answerable. No, natural attacks do not benefit from TWF or its derivatives because natural attacks are not off-hand weapons. Furthermore, as I stated before, natural attacks do not gain the benefit of iterative attacks for having a high BAB. 2. Can a wild shaped druid use Dancing Mongoose with its natural attacks? If so, how does it work?Sure. Natural weapons are still considered wielded. It works the same as usual. He would gain one extra attack with each of his claws and his bite attack with the normal Dancing Mongoose restriction that they must all be versus the same opponent. EDIT: It may be worth mentioning that claws are in fact a favored weapon of the Tiger Claw discipline. There's no reason to assume the maneuvers don't work with natural attacks. Also, the PrC requires TWF to get into, and he argues they would not require a feat that was useless to the character in wild shape when the vast majority of the PrC is based on being in wild shape.Nope. TWF is useless in Wildshape. Sorry. As to question #2, I'd let Dancing Mongoose work on a druid wild shaped into, say, a tiger. You still only get 2 extra attacks, and you'd be silly NOT to use them on your claw attacks (especially once you have the Dagger Claw ability), but there you have it.Actually, a Tiger using the maneuver would get 3 extra attacks. It has two claws and a bite, and all weapons would benefit. EDIT: Never mind. I just reread the maneuver and it specifies a maximum of two extra attacks. Please disregard... Bonus question: can a druid wild shaped into a tiger use Dancing Mongoose when pouncing? My call is yes, because a full round states you can take a free action, and the Swift Action rule says you can do one per turn and can take it any time you'd normally be allowed to take a free action.You are correct. Dancing Mongoose can indeed be used when pouncing.
Muddman72 03-06-08, 08:46 PM	Ok here is what I understand: Question 1: TWF w/ natural attacks? No, they get multiattack but they don't get extra attacks from TWF since they already get claw/claw/bite. They wouldn't get claw claw claw claw bite, it simply doesn't work. Question #2: Dancing mongoose technique? You must be fighting with two weapons. So for the same reason as #1, you're not using two weapons, your using natural weapons. Its the same as a were tiger using Dancing Mogoose, they can't without using two actual daggers. Sorry dude, this just ain't working as far as I can see
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-06-08, 09:11 PM	Ok here is what I understand: Question 1: TWF w/ natural attacks? No, they get multiattack but they don't get extra attacks from TWF since they already get claw/claw/bite. They wouldn't get claw claw claw claw bite, it simply doesn't work. Question #2: Dancing mongoose technique? You must be fighting with two weapons. So for the same reason as #1, you're not using two weapons, your using natural weapons. Its the same as a were tiger using Dancing Mogoose, they can't without using two actual daggers. Sorry dude, this just ain't working as far as I can see Do you mind sourcing these? Its not that I don't believe you, its just that they contradict the rules for natural weapons. Natural weapons are considered weapons, and if one were a monk one could use their "left" hand as an off hand weapon, why not the south paw? Further TWF does not require a base attack bonus, nor does it say anywhere that it requires an iterative attack bonus to work. It simply states that you get an extra attack with your off hand. The question as I see it can a natural attack, in this case claw, be considered an off hand weapon? I know there are rulings, particularly with monks, that rules a natural weapon is/can be used as an off hand weapon. Could someone show me were this has been changed, or were it is explicitly stated that a animals natural weapons do not count for an off hand atatck?
Crimson_Concerto 03-06-08, 10:40 PM	TWF does not require a base attack bonus, nor does it say anywhere that it requires an iterative attack bonus to work.Be that as it may, if you read the text of the TWF feat you'll see that a tiger would gain absolutely no benefit from it, since it doesn't take any penalties for fighting with its two natural weapons. Fighting with natural weapons is different than normal fighting. There's no such thing as a primary hand or off hand where natural attacks are concerned. There are primary natural weapons and secondary natural weapons, but that's hardly the same thing. The question as I see it can a natural attack, in this case claw, be considered an off hand weapon?No, it cannot. Now, you bring up monks, but here's the thing: Monks are weird and special. Their weapons are unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and manufactured weapons all at the same time, and they benefit from each in different ways. By default, natural attacks can't me primary hand or off hand weapons; they follow no such distinction or categorization. Instead, they can be primary or secondary natural weapons, which is decidedly different.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-06-08, 11:11 PM	Be that as it may, if you read the text of the TWF feat you'll see that a tiger would gain absolutely no benefit from it, since it doesn't take any penalties for fighting with its two natural weapons. Fighting with natural weapons is different than normal fighting. There's no such thing as a primary hand or off hand where natural attacks are concerned. There are primary natural weapons and secondary natural weapons, but that's hardly the same thing. No, it cannot. Now, you bring up monks, but here's the thing: Monks are weird and special. Their weapons are unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and manufactured weapons all at the same time, and they benefit from each in different ways. By default, natural attacks can't me primary hand or off hand weapons; they follow no such distinction or categorization. Instead, they can be primary or secondary natural weapons, which is decidedly different. I see the wisedom of your words. I have but one question left: 1) Why would the vast majority of Daggerspell shapers abilities only benefit it while in wild shape, it require a feat that is not usable while in wildshape?
Silvercrys 03-07-08, 07:55 AM	Because they are linked through an organization to the Daggerspell Mage, whos abilities all relate to casting spells while wielding two daggers. EDIT: The Master of Nine (Tome of Battle) requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and has nothing to do with attacking unarmed in particular. And the Order of the Bow Initiate requires ranks in Craft(Bowmaking). Prestige classes sometimes have prerequisites that are thematic only, and don't benefit class abilites at all.
tos_shai_hulud 03-07-08, 11:20 AM	I would recommend Warshaper. This would allow you to keep tiger form while wielding two daggers (you use your druidic ability to take tiger form and the Warshaper ability to change your front paws back into hands). The DM would need to approve the change, as the tiger would be required to run on two hands and two claws in order to make the initial charge attack, but after it charges, it could attack as normal with the daggers, plus get its bite attack and two rake attacks (as secondary natural attacks).
Kouk 03-07-08, 02:21 PM	Something I have thought about for a while, why couldn't an intelligent "animal" such as a Wildshaped Druid or a Shifter give up his "inherent" ability to attack like an animal? Tigers have "2 claws and bite" as a full attack. Claws have the same attack bonus, bite is at -5 (secondary weapon). Is that stronger or weaker than requiring the tiger to choose a paw as a "main hand" and the other is the "off hand", and the bite is a secondary natural attack? The attack bonus on the paws is lower if you use TWF. If you just let the Druid animal attack like a normal PC, they will only get a maximum of 6 attacks (assuming relatively pure classed in regards to BAB) and it takes 3 feats and a pretty high Dex score to work. Consider the Troglodyte or Lizardfolk. They can attack with weapons and bites and such. Of course, their damage is lower on their natural weapons, but they can use manufactured ones. If you let the Druid take TWF for Wildshape though, don't allow the character to take Multiattack. If you do it this way, everyone's happy. The player gets to use his TWF feats, and the DM doesn't have to learn more special rules. Or maybe you could just remove the Bite attack altogether for a PC. Is there some weird excessive power loophole I'm missing with this? The character will have extra attacks, but the same number as any other character with the same feats and BAB (plus or minus the Bite attack) and he can't use most of his equipment. Maybe some Druid spell makes this unworkable, I don't know. A gentleman's agreement not to use any loophole could still work though.
weasel0 03-08-08, 05:02 AM	[Troglodyte]Full Attack: Club +1 melee (1d6) and claw –1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4) and bite –1 melee (1d4); or javelin +1 ranged (1d6)Lizardfolk is near identical. It's still using the same attack method as it's natural attacks, and as a monster, will never go up to multiple attacks from BAB as it's still only attacking, hand hand bite. It's merely substituted the weapons it doing dmg with. (which I feel is supported by the fact that they are assigned multiattack as they're feat of choice)
tos_shai_hulud 03-08-08, 04:54 PM	Lizardfolk is near identical. It's still using the same attack method as it's natural attacks, and as a monster, will never go up to multiple attacks from BAB as it's still only attacking, hand hand bite. It's merely substituted the weapons it doing dmg with. (which I feel is supported by the fact that they are assigned multiattack as they're feat of choice) This has been covered in the FAQ. I don't have time to quote it all out, but likely someone else could. In general, the idea is that the Troglodyte is combining manufactured and natural attacks. If you look, the claw attack is at a -1, not a +1. This is because it is treated as a secondary natural attack (and the Troglodyte has multiattack, making all secondary attacks at -2). This means that if the Troglodyte were a 16th level fighter, his attack progression would be: Club +17/+12/+7/+2, Claw +15, Bite +15 This is because the club, as a manufactured weapon, is assessed the same attacks as a normal melee attack while the natural weapons (claw and bite) are natural weapons and gain only one attack. In the instance of the tiger with two claw attacks and a bite attack the tiger does not receive additional bonuses for a high base attack bonus because he is attacking with natural weapons, but if the tiger wanted, he could attack with unarmed strike. Now, it is entirely up to the DM what to allow for this. I, personally, like the ingenuity and would grant the tiger his full complement of unarmed strikes (with the front claws, treating it almost as if he were a human wearing a slashing variant of guantlets). I would also allow his bite attack in a full attack action as a secondary natural attack (manufactured weapons always count as primary attacks).
calronmoonflower 03-08-08, 07:39 PM	I looked up Dancing Mongoose and it seems that it can be applied to natural weapons. On a pounce a tiger gets 2 claws, a bite, and 2 rake attacks. With the boost you can double this to 10 attacks. If you pick up a level in monk you will also be allowed unarmed strikes while wild shaped, but that is about the only way to get those two-weapon fighting benefits in tiger form. For Searing Blade it is a standard action (misprint?) with no attack allowed :rolleyes: . If you do the logical thing and fix it you get the standard 5 attacks.
Crimson_Concerto 03-09-08, 01:52 AM	On a pounce a tiger gets 2 claws, a bite, and 2 rake attacks. With the boost you can double this to 10 attacks.No. Dancing Mongoose specifies a maximum of 2 extra attacks.
calronmoonflower 03-09-08, 03:37 AM	No. Dancing Mongoose specifies a maximum of 2 extra attacks. Opps, make it seven.