Tiny Creature Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tiny Creature Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Davro
07-18-07, 06:25 AM Couple of questions about tiny creatures in combat:

1) Can a tiny creature, in an opponent's square, provide or benefit from flanking?

PHB/SRD says no. Is there a published rule that provide exceptions without specialised feat/class feature use?

2) If a tiny creature is in an opponent's square, can it be bullrushed by the opponent? (Punt the little kittyform rogue.)
Eater_Of_Souls
07-18-07, 07:19 AM 1) In short nope
2) Yes and gets - 8 to strenght check from normal size opponent.
Initial bullrush is treated as usual but if your opponent won't fail the check by at least 5 feet you cannot bullrush tiny creature, since you cannot end you move in to occupied square, so you must bullrush at least 2 squares (since tiny creature is fighting in an occupied square where your move would end unless you beat opponents check result by 5 to move it one more square).
Normally you could take 5 foot step but rules state that bullrush cannot be done if it leaves you to occupied square.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-18-07, 02:02 PM 1) Can a tiny creature, in an opponent's square, provide or benefit from flanking?Yes. See "Mixing it Up" in the DMG (p. 29).
calvinNhobbes
07-18-07, 02:05 PM In the DMG it states that multiple smaller creatures in an opponents square provide flanking bonuses.
I'm not sure if this got errated or not. I'll have to wait until I have the DMG in front of me to give a page number.

EDIT: Tim has the page#.
Davro
07-18-07, 02:08 PM Yes. See "Mixing it Up" in the DMG (p. 29).

Just confirmed this with my player.

Bit annoyed that that bit didn't make it into the SRD, at least not on www.d20srd.org
Eater_Of_Souls
07-18-07, 02:12 PM In the DMG it states that multiple smaller creatures in an opponents square provide flanking bonuses.
I'm not sure if this got errated or not. I'll have to wait until I have the DMG in front of me to give a page number.

EDIT: Tim has the page#.
Multiple tiny creatures can occupy a square with a larger creature but they cannot threaten near by squares only creatures that are small or larger can threaten adjacent squares.
So in effect this means that they no do not get AoO to any squares that surrounds their square(unlike small normal and larger creatures) only if a creature moves through their square they may have an AoO.

Edit: missing part in DM page 29 say that multiple allied creatures in same square get flank bonus for each other.

From SRD:
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures

Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Davro 07-18-07, 06:25 AM	Couple of questions about tiny creatures in combat: 1) Can a tiny creature, in an opponent's square, provide or benefit from flanking? PHB/SRD says no. Is there a published rule that provide exceptions without specialised feat/class feature use? 2) If a tiny creature is in an opponent's square, can it be bullrushed by the opponent? (Punt the little kittyform rogue.)
Eater_Of_Souls 07-18-07, 07:19 AM	1) In short nope 2) Yes and gets - 8 to strenght check from normal size opponent. Initial bullrush is treated as usual but if your opponent won't fail the check by at least 5 feet you cannot bullrush tiny creature, since you cannot end you move in to occupied square, so you must bullrush at least 2 squares (since tiny creature is fighting in an occupied square where your move would end unless you beat opponents check result by 5 to move it one more square). Normally you could take 5 foot step but rules state that bullrush cannot be done if it leaves you to occupied square.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-18-07, 02:02 PM	1) Can a tiny creature, in an opponent's square, provide or benefit from flanking?Yes. See "Mixing it Up" in the DMG (p. 29).
calvinNhobbes 07-18-07, 02:05 PM	In the DMG it states that multiple smaller creatures in an opponents square provide flanking bonuses. I'm not sure if this got errated or not. I'll have to wait until I have the DMG in front of me to give a page number. EDIT: Tim has the page#.
Davro 07-18-07, 02:08 PM	Yes. See "Mixing it Up" in the DMG (p. 29). Just confirmed this with my player. Bit annoyed that that bit didn't make it into the SRD, at least not on www.d20srd.org
Eater_Of_Souls 07-18-07, 02:12 PM	In the DMG it states that multiple smaller creatures in an opponents square provide flanking bonuses. I'm not sure if this got errated or not. I'll have to wait until I have the DMG in front of me to give a page number. EDIT: Tim has the page#. Multiple tiny creatures can occupy a square with a larger creature but they cannot threaten near by squares only creatures that are small or larger can threaten adjacent squares. So in effect this means that they no do not get AoO to any squares that surrounds their square(unlike small normal and larger creatures) only if a creature moves through their square they may have an AoO. Edit: missing part in DM page 29 say that multiple allied creatures in same square get flank bonus for each other. From SRD: Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.