Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fitz10019 02-27-08, 12:53 PM	Tiny creatures cannot flank, since they share a square with whom they are attacking The PHB is clear... "if [an imaginary line drawn between two allies] passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space, then the opponent is flanked... Exception:... Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent." (PHB p. 153) The DMG, however... "Creatures two size categories apart can occupy the same space... If a creature occupies part of an opponent's space, it provides flanking to all allied creatures outside the opponent's space. " (DMG p. 29) Does flanking from within an opponent's space only occur from size Small and up? If so, why?
Urithair 02-27-08, 02:39 PM	Are you implying that the Law given to us by WoTC is not inerrant? BLASHPHEMER Yeah, this looks like a contradiction, I would go with the DMG interpretation.
Sildatorak 02-27-08, 03:01 PM	I've always interpreted those to mean that if you have a tiny creature in your space you are flanked by everyone else, but the little bugger doesn't get any bonus.
Baddum12 02-27-08, 04:31 PM	Yes, tiny creatures may provide flanking; however, they themselves never actually benefit from flanking.
Fitz10019 02-27-08, 05:16 PM	I appreciate the replies. DMG, p. 29, "Any time more than one allied creature occupies an opponent's space... the allied creatures provide each other with the benefit of flanking... Example: A colony of stirges (Tiny) attacks a human (Medium)... [the stirges] provide each other with flanking against the human." This example even has Tiny creatures GETTING flank bonuses (albeit from each other). We're talking about the "Big and Little Creatures in Combat" section, "Mixing It Up" subsection. Maybe even veterans need to re-read it. We all seem to have different ideas on this. I think the "no flank" rule for Tiny refers specifically to the Tiny creature being in a square that normally would be flanking for Medium creatures, just like the "no AoO" rule for Tiny creatures. It's all about their reach of 0 feet. However, their short reach is irrelevant when they share space with their opponent.
White_Wizard 02-29-08, 12:41 PM	The PHB is clear... "if [an imaginary line drawn between two allies] passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space, then the opponent is flanked... Exception:... Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent." (PHB p. 153) The DMG, however... "Creatures two size categories apart can occupy the same space... If a creature occupies part of an opponent's space, it provides flanking to all allied creatures outside the opponent's space. " (DMG p. 29) Does flanking from within an opponent's space only occur from size Small and up? If so, why? Yeah, that's problematic, but I've always figured out that Creatures with reach of 0 (provided that they are in the right position to flank an opponent) do not gain any bonus to their attack rolls (I figure flanking like actively trying to hamper the enemy's movements and smaller creatures - reach 0 -, though they may try, cannot be a real obstacle to a man). On the other hand they are sufficiently active to enable another creature in the right position to gain both the +2 bonus (provided he is in the right position and that he has a reach higher than 0).
mvincent 03-03-08, 03:49 PM	The PHB is clear... "if [an imaginary line drawn between two allies] passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space, then the opponent is flanked... Exception:... Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent." (PHB p. 153) The DMG, however... "Creatures two size categories apart can occupy the same space... If a creature occupies part of an opponent's space, it provides flanking to all allied creatures outside the opponent's space. " (DMG p. 29) Does flanking from within an opponent's space only occur from size Small and up? If so, why?The DMG quote seems intended to apply only to opponents that threaten (i.e. it would not apply to say; unarmed, unconscious or tiny opponents). The DMG point does not seem intended to change the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) for Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: "Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy." Edit: disregard this post. Tiny and smaller creatures evidently do threaten (their own squares).
Khadmus 03-04-08, 05:59 PM	I believe that, contradictory to the example, a Tiny creature in a Medium creature's square provides flanking to all adjacent allies; yet does not recieve a +2 bonus itself.
Fitz10019 03-04-08, 06:51 PM	I think the conflict is that Flanking and AoOs are usually described based on Squares around an enemy. From surrounding squares, these rules do not apply to 0 reach creatures. However, the rules DO apply when the 0-reachers co-occupy squares with their enemies. The DMG is very clear that a group of tinys, if all co-occupy an enemy's squares, they ALL both GIVE and GET the flanking bonus.
Edymnion 03-04-08, 07:03 PM	Yes, its all about threatening. You cannot provide a flanking bonus to someone if you do not threaten the creature in the middle. Its just that Tiny and smaller creatures have no reach, and hence cannot normally threaten any square but their own.
mvincent 03-04-08, 07:22 PM	Tiny and smaller creatures have no reach, and hence cannot normally threaten any square but their own.Do we have any evidence that they threaten their own squares? I had believed that they didn't threaten at all. Indeed swarms (which are comprised of tiny or smaller creatures) "do not threaten creatures in their square". Edit: nevermind. I found a reference. From the RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a): "a Tiny or smaller creature threatens the square it occupies"