ToB Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

ToB Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mandarbgrim
08-22-07, 04:01 PM For a non-martial adapt character Martial study gives a Manuever Known & its use once per battle, correct?

For a Martial Adapt it simply gives the initiator 1 more Manuever known, except that it can never be changed?

Using a Warblade as an example, my main question is...If my Warblade takes Martial Study to gain an Ironheart Manuever does he use it like a normal manuever known, meaning that it takes up a manuever readied slot? Or does he gain a readied manuever slot, as well, that is always filled with that manuever known?

Does this change if it is a type of manuever that he doesn't normally have access to? Such as a Shadow Hand Manuever?

These seem a bit obvious, but it just seems odd that a Fighter taking Martial Study for a Shadow Hand manuever would actually benefit from this feat more than a Warblade doing that same thing. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding.
Salla
08-22-07, 06:02 PM Martial Study would give the Warblade a new maneuver known, but it would not increase his number of readied maneuvers. It doesn't matter if it's a maneuver in a discipline he would already have access to. Notice that there is a feat that increases the number of maneuvers you can read (but it's only for Swordsages).
OGS-Remix
08-22-07, 06:42 PM These seem a bit obvious, but it just seems odd that a Fighter taking Martial Study for a Shadow Hand manuever would actually benefit from this feat more than a Warblade doing that same thing. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding.

There are three things working against the Fighter:

1) They can only get single manuevers through this feat. Lots of the good manuevers have pre-reqs which means you have to take this feat multiple times.
2) Fighter initiator level is 1/2 their HD(with no other martial adept levels), Warblade initiator level is generally higher which means they can take higher level(better) manuevers.
3) Warblades can recover their manuevers in combat. Fighters can't.
Mandarbgrim
08-22-07, 08:23 PM That's how I thought it worked, but I wasn't sure. It just seems odd that Martial Study for a...cross-class school is far more useful for a non-initiator than a different kind of initiator.

From what it looks like, a Warblade is still considered 1/2 Initiator level for manuevers from different schools & can't recover the manuevers from Martial study in combat.

I admit your 3 issues are fully relevant to a Warblade who is gaining manuevers known of schools he has access too, but it seems like he has those same issues against him for different schools...and additionally he doesn't gain a slot in which to use this manuever, he must use up his own... So the only advantage from the feat is a minor amount of versatility.
Marcus Majarra
08-23-07, 03:17 AM From what it looks like, a Warblade is still considered 1/2 Initiator level for manuevers from different schools & can't recover the manuevers from Martial study in combat.
This is incorrect. By becoming one of the martial adept's maneuvers known, it follows the same regulations as the other maneuvers said martial adept knows, including initiator level and recovery method. What you said applies to characters without martial adept levels. As it is, no martial adept class is limited to having maneuvers of only a given set of schools; it's just that they only learn maneuvers of a given set of schools as part of their class features.
Mandarbgrim
08-23-07, 08:04 AM I was extending my understanding of the multiclass martial adept to the use of Martial Study. It seemed to make sense, and still does, but it works out better to not do so.
Marcus Majarra
08-23-07, 10:57 AM I was extending my understanding of the multiclass martial adept to the use of Martial Study. It seemed to make sense, and still does, but it works out better to not do so.
I don't believe it does make sense to do so. Unlike multiclassing, Martial Study doesn't add another source of manuevers known unless you have none already to begin with. I believe the problematic issue here would be to determine what happens if you take Martial Study while already a multiclass martial adept. To which class' manuevers do you add the new manuever?
Salla
08-23-07, 01:09 PM I don't believe it does make sense to do so. Unlike multiclassing, Martial Study doesn't add another source of manuevers known unless you have none already to begin with. I believe the problematic issue here would be to determine what happens if you take Martial Study while already a multiclass martial adept. To which class' manuevers do you add the new manuever?

I would presume you decide which class you would add it to when you take the feat. Seems simplest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mandarbgrim 08-22-07, 04:01 PM	For a non-martial adapt character Martial study gives a Manuever Known & its use once per battle, correct? For a Martial Adapt it simply gives the initiator 1 more Manuever known, except that it can never be changed? Using a Warblade as an example, my main question is...If my Warblade takes Martial Study to gain an Ironheart Manuever does he use it like a normal manuever known, meaning that it takes up a manuever readied slot? Or does he gain a readied manuever slot, as well, that is always filled with that manuever known? Does this change if it is a type of manuever that he doesn't normally have access to? Such as a Shadow Hand Manuever? These seem a bit obvious, but it just seems odd that a Fighter taking Martial Study for a Shadow Hand manuever would actually benefit from this feat more than a Warblade doing that same thing. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding.
Salla 08-22-07, 06:02 PM	Martial Study would give the Warblade a new maneuver known, but it would not increase his number of readied maneuvers. It doesn't matter if it's a maneuver in a discipline he would already have access to. Notice that there is a feat that increases the number of maneuvers you can read (but it's only for Swordsages).
OGS-Remix 08-22-07, 06:42 PM	These seem a bit obvious, but it just seems odd that a Fighter taking Martial Study for a Shadow Hand manuever would actually benefit from this feat more than a Warblade doing that same thing. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding. There are three things working against the Fighter: 1) They can only get single manuevers through this feat. Lots of the good manuevers have pre-reqs which means you have to take this feat multiple times. 2) Fighter initiator level is 1/2 their HD(with no other martial adept levels), Warblade initiator level is generally higher which means they can take higher level(better) manuevers. 3) Warblades can recover their manuevers in combat. Fighters can't.
Mandarbgrim 08-22-07, 08:23 PM	That's how I thought it worked, but I wasn't sure. It just seems odd that Martial Study for a...cross-class school is far more useful for a non-initiator than a different kind of initiator. From what it looks like, a Warblade is still considered 1/2 Initiator level for manuevers from different schools & can't recover the manuevers from Martial study in combat. I admit your 3 issues are fully relevant to a Warblade who is gaining manuevers known of schools he has access too, but it seems like he has those same issues against him for different schools...and additionally he doesn't gain a slot in which to use this manuever, he must use up his own... So the only advantage from the feat is a minor amount of versatility.
Marcus Majarra 08-23-07, 03:17 AM	From what it looks like, a Warblade is still considered 1/2 Initiator level for manuevers from different schools & can't recover the manuevers from Martial study in combat. This is incorrect. By becoming one of the martial adept's maneuvers known, it follows the same regulations as the other maneuvers said martial adept knows, including initiator level and recovery method. What you said applies to characters without martial adept levels. As it is, no martial adept class is limited to having maneuvers of only a given set of schools; it's just that they only learn maneuvers of a given set of schools as part of their class features.
Mandarbgrim 08-23-07, 08:04 AM	I was extending my understanding of the multiclass martial adept to the use of Martial Study. It seemed to make sense, and still does, but it works out better to not do so.
Marcus Majarra 08-23-07, 10:57 AM	I was extending my understanding of the multiclass martial adept to the use of Martial Study. It seemed to make sense, and still does, but it works out better to not do so. I don't believe it does make sense to do so. Unlike multiclassing, Martial Study doesn't add another source of manuevers known unless you have none already to begin with. I believe the problematic issue here would be to determine what happens if you take Martial Study while already a multiclass martial adept. To which class' manuevers do you add the new manuever?
Salla 08-23-07, 01:09 PM	I don't believe it does make sense to do so. Unlike multiclassing, Martial Study doesn't add another source of manuevers known unless you have none already to begin with. I believe the problematic issue here would be to determine what happens if you take Martial Study while already a multiclass martial adept. To which class' manuevers do you add the new manuever? I would presume you decide which class you would add it to when you take the feat. Seems simplest.