Tome & Blood Improved Familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tome & Blood Improved Familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raynx
03-25-07, 08:54 PM I am confused about the wording used in the Improved Familiars entry in Tome & Blood, on page 15.

"Granted Abilities: In addition to their own special qualities, all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat, improved evasion, empathic link, and shared spells at 1st level (see above)."

This sounds to me that Improved Familiars bestow their respective masters with the special qualities of themselves...
Meaning, I could gain a Homunculus Familiar that has the SQ: Construct and Poison, and make my Caster have the same.
Is this true? Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...), however I have assumed up to this point that Improved Familiars do not need to grant such specialized bonuses due to their higher functionality and survivability.

Could someone clarify this issue for me, please?
olshanski_home
03-26-07, 12:03 PM Tome and Blood is 3.0 rules instead of 3.5.

What I think they are saying is that most familiars grant a specific boon to the master, I think toads grant +3 HP, rats give a +2 Fort save, Weasels give a +2 Reflex save, etcetera. That is simply based on what type of familiar you have. If you look at the familiars, each familiar grants a specific boon to the caster:

You don't get the "abilities" of the familiar in any case... someone with a rat familiar doesn't get to deliver disease with a bite attack, and so forth.
Raynx
03-26-07, 12:48 PM Tome and Blood is 3.0 rules instead of 3.5.

Sorry, I should have mentioned this. The campaign we are going to be doing soon is 3.0, and 3.5 books are banned.

What I think they are saying is that most familiars grant a specific boon to the master, I think toads grant +3 HP, rats give a +2 Fort save, Weasels give a +2 Reflex save, etcetera. That is simply based on what type of familiar you have. If you look at the familiars, each familiar grants a specific boon to the caster:

Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...)
Fully aware of this.

You don't get the "abilities" of the familiar in any case... someone with a rat familiar doesn't get to deliver disease with a bite attack, and so forth.
I'm not trying to start conflict or argument, but what is your confirmation for this statement? Once again, the reason I don't understand the problem is the way it was written, not what was written.
olshanski_home
03-26-07, 01:04 PM Well, I don't have the 3.0 books anymore, so I cannot say one way or another. I will not argue.

I ask you this: Does a wizard with an owl or raven familiar get the ability to fly on account of having those familiars?
Does a wizard with a rat familiar get a swim and climb speed?
Raynx
03-26-07, 02:16 PM Well, I don't have the 3.0 books anymore, so I cannot say one way or another. I will not argue.

I ask you this: Does a wizard with an owl or raven familiar get the ability to fly on account of having those familiars?
Does a wizard with a rat familiar get a swim and climb speed?

I know that, logically, simply having a magical pet does not grant one the abilities to emulate that pet to a near-perfect degree.
I'm not contesting that.
Besides, movement speeds are not Special Qualities.
Special Qualities entails Energy Resistances, Low-Light Vision, Darkvision, Immunities, Damage Reduction, Alternate Forms, Regeneration, Electricity Sense, not being subject to critical hits, flanking, or sneak attacks... to name the SQs of the Improved Familiars detailed on pages 15-16 of Tome & Blood.

And thank you for your posts.
ryryguy
03-26-07, 05:02 PM "Granted Abilities: In addition to their own special qualities, all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat, improved evasion, empathic link, and shared spells at 1st level (see above)."

Is this true? Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...), however I have assumed up to this point that Improved Familiars do not need to grant such specialized bonuses due to their higher functionality and survivability.

Could someone clarify this issue for me, please?

I certainly never interpreted as meaning the special familiar grants its own special qualities to its master. It does just seem like poor word choice. As you note, the Improved Familiar is its own reward and doesn't need to grant the special bonuses that regular familiars grant. Adding, say, the DR of an elemental familiar as a grant to its master, on top of the utility of having the elemental familiar, seems grossly overpowered.

Here's how I interpret that phrase: not a list of things that familiars grant their masters, but a list of granted abilities that the familiar itself gets. I.e., its special qualities are its own special qualities plus improved evasion, empathic link, share spells. I believe those things are listed as special qualities for a familiar. The only thing in the list that wouldn't be listed there is "all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat", and having that phrase there that is the poor wording.
Raynx
03-26-07, 06:05 PM Thank you, Ryryguy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raynx 03-25-07, 08:54 PM	I am confused about the wording used in the Improved Familiars entry in Tome & Blood, on page 15. "Granted Abilities: In addition to their own special qualities, all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat, improved evasion, empathic link, and shared spells at 1st level (see above)." This sounds to me that Improved Familiars bestow their respective masters with the special qualities of themselves... Meaning, I could gain a Homunculus Familiar that has the SQ: Construct and Poison, and make my Caster have the same. Is this true? Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...), however I have assumed up to this point that Improved Familiars do not need to grant such specialized bonuses due to their higher functionality and survivability. Could someone clarify this issue for me, please?
olshanski_home 03-26-07, 12:03 PM	Tome and Blood is 3.0 rules instead of 3.5. What I think they are saying is that most familiars grant a specific boon to the master, I think toads grant +3 HP, rats give a +2 Fort save, Weasels give a +2 Reflex save, etcetera. That is simply based on what type of familiar you have. If you look at the familiars, each familiar grants a specific boon to the caster: You don't get the "abilities" of the familiar in any case... someone with a rat familiar doesn't get to deliver disease with a bite attack, and so forth.
Raynx 03-26-07, 12:48 PM	Tome and Blood is 3.0 rules instead of 3.5. Sorry, I should have mentioned this. The campaign we are going to be doing soon is 3.0, and 3.5 books are banned. What I think they are saying is that most familiars grant a specific boon to the master, I think toads grant +3 HP, rats give a +2 Fort save, Weasels give a +2 Reflex save, etcetera. That is simply based on what type of familiar you have. If you look at the familiars, each familiar grants a specific boon to the caster: Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...) Fully aware of this. You don't get the "abilities" of the familiar in any case... someone with a rat familiar doesn't get to deliver disease with a bite attack, and so forth. I'm not trying to start conflict or argument, but what is your confirmation for this statement? Once again, the reason I don't understand the problem is the way it was written, not what was written.
olshanski_home 03-26-07, 01:04 PM	Well, I don't have the 3.0 books anymore, so I cannot say one way or another. I will not argue. I ask you this: Does a wizard with an owl or raven familiar get the ability to fly on account of having those familiars? Does a wizard with a rat familiar get a swim and climb speed?
Raynx 03-26-07, 02:16 PM	Well, I don't have the 3.0 books anymore, so I cannot say one way or another. I will not argue. I ask you this: Does a wizard with an owl or raven familiar get the ability to fly on account of having those familiars? Does a wizard with a rat familiar get a swim and climb speed? I know that, logically, simply having a magical pet does not grant one the abilities to emulate that pet to a near-perfect degree. I'm not contesting that. Besides, movement speeds are not Special Qualities. Special Qualities entails Energy Resistances, Low-Light Vision, Darkvision, Immunities, Damage Reduction, Alternate Forms, Regeneration, Electricity Sense, not being subject to critical hits, flanking, or sneak attacks... to name the SQs of the Improved Familiars detailed on pages 15-16 of Tome & Blood. And thank you for your posts.
ryryguy 03-26-07, 05:02 PM	"Granted Abilities: In addition to their own special qualities, all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat, improved evasion, empathic link, and shared spells at 1st level (see above)." Is this true? Normally, I would shrug it off as poor word choice or sentence structure, but I've yet to see a table for the specific bonuses an Improved Familiar gives its master (IE +2 Spot in Daylight, etc...), however I have assumed up to this point that Improved Familiars do not need to grant such specialized bonuses due to their higher functionality and survivability. Could someone clarify this issue for me, please? I certainly never interpreted as meaning the special familiar grants its own special qualities to its master. It does just seem like poor word choice. As you note, the Improved Familiar is its own reward and doesn't need to grant the special bonuses that regular familiars grant. Adding, say, the DR of an elemental familiar as a grant to its master, on top of the utility of having the elemental familiar, seems grossly overpowered. Here's how I interpret that phrase: not a list of things that familiars grant their masters, but a list of granted abilities that the familiar itself gets. I.e., its special qualities are its own special qualities plus improved evasion, empathic link, share spells. I believe those things are listed as special qualities for a familiar. The only thing in the list that wouldn't be listed there is "all familiars grant their master the Alertness feat", and having that phrase there that is the poor wording.
Raynx 03-26-07, 06:05 PM	Thank you, Ryryguy.