Tome of Battle - Sudden Leap [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tome of Battle - Sudden Leap [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pmurray@bigpond.com
02-14-07, 02:10 AM The description of Sudden Lep states that you "move the distance determined by your check result".

Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates.

If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)?
Matthew77
02-14-07, 09:53 AM I treat Sudden Leap exactly as if the character had made any other jump.

Standing jump = half the distance,
Tumbling midair = half the distance.

If they did a move action, and then the Sudden Leap as a swift action at the end of it, then they could get the benefits of a running jump.
KingMarl
02-14-07, 11:02 AM The description of Sudden Leap states that you "move the distance determined by your check result".

Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates.

If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)?

The main benefit of this maneuver appears to be that you gain extra movement - since the Sudden Leap is not part of your movement, it doesn't count against your movement for the round.

I'd say all other considerations for the Jump should apply - if you haven't moved 20 ft. in a straight line, for example, you'd double the DCs (and thus half the distance).

Unfortunately, the Sudden Leap maneuver seems to be at odds with the Tumble skill. The skill specifies in several places that it's normal movement you can Tumble during. It supplies a -10 to the DC for tumbling if you're moving at full speed, and Complete Adventurer applies a -20 penalty for a sprinting tumble (where you tumble while running). That seems reasonable to apply here as well (in fact, you could argue that tumbling while jumping is harder than tumbling while running). Thus, you're looking at a minimum DC of 35 to jump past an opponent's square and 45 to jump through an opponent's square.

As for using a standard tumble check (or even a normal movement tumble check at -10), I'd say there's no chance of that even in a normal jump - moving slowly through the air requires flying, not jumping.
RadicalTaoist
02-14-07, 11:18 AM The bigger Sudden Leap question is if it allows you to double jump. :devil:
Marcus Majarra
02-15-07, 10:16 AM Actually, a better question would be: can you attempt Jump checks in mid-air?

My answer would be no, based on physics (air resistance isn't strong enough to give you sufficient leverage for a jump).
KingMarl
02-16-07, 10:22 AM Actually, a better question would be: can you attempt Jump checks in mid-air?

My answer would be no, based on physics (air resistance isn't strong enough to give you sufficient leverage for a jump).

Agreed. Pretty clearly you need to jump off something. If you're jumping (or flying, or falling, or whatever) there's nothing to jump off of.
Toptomcat
02-16-07, 11:54 AM But it does seem to allow wall jumps.
Icewraith
02-16-07, 05:41 PM Technically all you would need is something- even an unsupported, massive object- to get purchase in order to use sudden leap. Boots that temporarily conjure large blocks of lead under the user's feat for less than a second would allow for the use of sudden leap in mid-air, allowing for double jumps.

The way sudden leap is worded, it appears to ignore the normal movement requirements for moving before a jump and the normal penalties and usage for tumbling. Depending on how strictly you interpret "the initiator may tumble normally during the jump" the accelerated tumbling penalty may or may not apply.
pmurray@bigpond.com
02-17-07, 01:05 AM The tumbling would be a matter of choosing your jump and maybe twisting in midair - that's waht tumbling as part of movement is all about anyway. You don't need purchasein midair - ever seen a cat fall?
Marcus Majarra
02-17-07, 12:33 PM Technically all you would need is something- even an unsupported, massive object- to get purchase in order to use sudden leap. Boots that temporarily conjure large blocks of lead under the user's feat for less than a second would allow for the use of sudden leap in mid-air, allowing for double jumps.

The way sudden leap is worded, it appears to ignore the normal movement requirements for moving before a jump and the normal penalties and usage for tumbling. Depending on how strictly you interpret "the initiator may tumble normally during the jump" the accelerated tumbling penalty may or may not apply.
Are you certain? I don't remember that a solid object in mid-air grants any leverage on its own unless the object itself can remain in mid-air without falling (such as an airplane).
Toptomcat
02-17-07, 02:04 PM Imagine free fall as weightless, which it effectively is. That should clear up a lot of confusion.
Icewraith
02-17-07, 10:06 PM Equal and opposite reactions. This is just like a rocket engine, only you're ejecting magically conjured blocks or an unfortunate mid-air opponent for thrust instead of superheated gas.
Lord Nedd
02-17-07, 10:39 PM Hmm. This smacks of one of those lovely classical physics point reference problems.

You can simulate a magically created lead brick under your feet as a rock on a frickonless plane (along the axes of the push, of course). As you push with your feet, all you would do is push the lead brick along an infinite distance.

Or in other words, as you tried to push off the lead bricks, they would just fly off in the direction of opposite of the force vector (the kick motion) at a speed equal to the strength of the jump - a small amount of air friction + any additional forces such as gravity. Eventually, the brick will hit something ... or someone. (A great 'Gods Must be Crazy moment, there... Do that date me?! )

In order to have these boots work properly, you would need to make the bricks be held immovable for a round before disappearing.

It is possible in a magical campaign. The question is, is it worth the time to design such an item as a DM?

-LN
Donovan Morningfire
05-15-07, 04:30 PM Simple Solution = Sudden Leap + Leaping Dragon Stance (+10 to Jump checks, automatically considered to have a running start). Lots of movement as a swift action and still leaves you a full-round action if necessary.

I've used that combo to descriptively spring-board off a hobgoblin's shield to come to the immediate aid of non-combat focused PCs (opted not to try Tumble and suffer the AoO since I needed the distance). Even allowed one player to make a pretty good wisecrack about it.

The way Sudden Leap is written, I'd agree the penalties for using Tumble and not having a running start would apply.
fukifino
05-15-07, 06:54 PM You could also use the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2 (no penalty for standing jumps, +5 to check if you actually move 20ft.)

Don't really have an opinion on the tumble component.
pmurray@bigpond.com
05-16-07, 12:57 AM Ok.

Leap of the Heavens (PHII)
Quick trait (+10' move = +4 to the jump check)
And (drum roll)
... 1 level of Thief-Acrobat (Complete Adventurer)! Allows you to tumble at full speed.
Donovan Morningfire
05-16-07, 07:45 PM You could also use the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2 (no penalty for standing jumps, +5 to check if you actually move 20ft.)
That works too, but depending on how feat-starved your Warblade is, it might be a feat that could be better spent elsewhere on a feat chain such as Spring Attack, Great Cleave, or even Weapon Mastery.
Optimized_Commoner
05-20-07, 10:03 AM As for the "jump off something unsupported in mid air", then yes it's entirely possible (in real world physics) so long as you can touch it with your feet. You push them one way, they push you the other way. Simple newtonian action-reaction pair. Same reason a rocket can propel itself forwards by sending a column of burning jet fuel backwards.

The only way this won't work is if the object is too fragile and breaks when you kick it, since this will disperse most of the force you create.

Only problem with conjuring something under your feet is that if you're moving up (due to your momentum) and they're moving down (due to gravity) is that you won't be able to connect to kick off unless you conjure them while your knees are bent and very quickly unbend them to jump.
Karla
06-04-07, 10:25 AM Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates.

There's a customer service ruling on this one, quoted here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9897970&postcount=211

Basically jump-related maneuvers are not treated as if they were standing jumps for purposes of DCs/range.

If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)?
My personal opinion would be that the entire jump has to be made at the same speed. So you choose (before rolling) whether to move (up to) your full jump distance at full speed or elect to move half your rolled jump distance at half speed.
pmurray@bigpond.com
06-04-07, 08:30 PM There's a customer service ruling on this one, quoted here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9897970&postcount=211

Basically jump-related maneuvers are not treated as if they were standing jumps for purposes of DCs/range.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. I will ask the DM if I may re-engineer my character just a tad in light of this ruling and trade in Leap of the Heavens for another feat. Adaptive Style, here I come! W00T!
Karla
06-05-07, 05:31 AM Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

You're welcome. That thread really is required reading for anyone wishing to play or DM a character using Tome of Battle.

I remain fairly impressed with Wizard's customer service for rules queries - they're fast and if not always 'right' first time, are open to discussion where something is obviously wrong or confusing with their answer - but I'd have to say the playtesting/proofreading on Tome of Battle was well short of the standard I'd expect. And the lack of any 'official' collated errata or custserv FAQ after all this time is extremely disappointing.

(And there's still not one consistent explanation of how the Crusader's recovery mechanism is supposed to work! CustServ had after several iterations eventually settled on one - and then the Sage went and contradicted it again! So it's anyone's guess really!)
pmurray@bigpond.com
06-06-07, 05:07 AM but I'd have to say the playtesting/proofreading on Tome of Battle was well short of the standard I'd expect

No kidding. Iron Heart Surge, in particular - there's a ruling somehere to the effect that if you are in an antimagic field, a surge will dispel it completely. Ridiculous.

My current character abuses Blood In The Water with twin kukris, TWF, and (at level 11) Dancing Mongoose. That's 8 attacks, threatening a critical on 15-20, and no limit to the bonus you can stack up. It makes sense to have the druid summon a bag of rats so you can pump up the bonus to something nutty before going up against the BBEG.

Anyway. It's just a game. :)
Karla
06-06-07, 04:05 PM No kidding. Iron Heart Surge, in particular - there's a ruling somehere to the effect that if you are in an antimagic field, a surge will dispel it completely. Ridiculous.

Yeah, that's not a ruling that makes much sense to me. IHS should be about dramatically throwing off effects on your own body - so it ought to let you shake off dominations, charms, stuns, dazes - which it doesn't - but shouldn't totally nullify external area effects - which it does! However that's not really what I was driving at as that's a CustServ ruling - the problem is that the ToB ought to define what IHS works on and what it doesn't, but doesn't actually say in enough detail.

I love the ToB ideas to bits - but a bit of playtesting to discover the holes, ambiguities and downright stupidities (my favourite was when CustServ told me that damage rolls were an exception to the rule which (amongst others) specifically states that bonuses to damage rolls do not stack!) would not have gone amiss!

My current character abuses Blood In The Water with twin kukris, TWF, and (at level 11) Dancing Mongoose. That's 8 attacks, threatening a critical on 15-20, and no limit to the bonus you can stack up.

Hm... my character's a Dervish/Warblade so could in theory use twin scimitars like this. If she had any TWF feats that is, which alas she doesn't. Ah well, maybe next character... :)
hecknoshow
06-11-07, 02:43 PM Just to help out about being able to take purchase on something that is in midair so you can jump off it. It can be done if its Mass is at least 1half to 1third the character jumping(approx/educated guess).

I free-run alot and after reading this thread a friend of mine and I tried it using each other as spring boards while in the air. Its damn hard though but I'm prob only lvl 1or2(3if I'm feelin generous) as it is so a lvl8 shouldn't find it so hard. On a side note, being a Human springboard hurts, ALOT(land on face).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-14-07, 02:10 AM	The description of Sudden Lep states that you "move the distance determined by your check result". Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates. If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)?
Matthew77 02-14-07, 09:53 AM	I treat Sudden Leap exactly as if the character had made any other jump. Standing jump = half the distance, Tumbling midair = half the distance. If they did a move action, and then the Sudden Leap as a swift action at the end of it, then they could get the benefits of a running jump.
KingMarl 02-14-07, 11:02 AM	The description of Sudden Leap states that you "move the distance determined by your check result". Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates. If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)? The main benefit of this maneuver appears to be that you gain extra movement - since the Sudden Leap is not part of your movement, it doesn't count against your movement for the round. I'd say all other considerations for the Jump should apply - if you haven't moved 20 ft. in a straight line, for example, you'd double the DCs (and thus half the distance). Unfortunately, the Sudden Leap maneuver seems to be at odds with the Tumble skill. The skill specifies in several places that it's normal movement you can Tumble during. It supplies a -10 to the DC for tumbling if you're moving at full speed, and Complete Adventurer applies a -20 penalty for a sprinting tumble (where you tumble while running). That seems reasonable to apply here as well (in fact, you could argue that tumbling while jumping is harder than tumbling while running). Thus, you're looking at a minimum DC of 35 to jump past an opponent's square and 45 to jump through an opponent's square. As for using a standard tumble check (or even a normal movement tumble check at -10), I'd say there's no chance of that even in a normal jump - moving slowly through the air requires flying, not jumping.
RadicalTaoist 02-14-07, 11:18 AM	The bigger Sudden Leap question is if it allows you to double jump. :devil:
Marcus Majarra 02-15-07, 10:16 AM	Actually, a better question would be: can you attempt Jump checks in mid-air? My answer would be no, based on physics (air resistance isn't strong enough to give you sufficient leverage for a jump).
KingMarl 02-16-07, 10:22 AM	Actually, a better question would be: can you attempt Jump checks in mid-air? My answer would be no, based on physics (air resistance isn't strong enough to give you sufficient leverage for a jump). Agreed. Pretty clearly you need to jump off something. If you're jumping (or flying, or falling, or whatever) there's nothing to jump off of.
Toptomcat 02-16-07, 11:54 AM	But it does seem to allow wall jumps.
Icewraith 02-16-07, 05:41 PM	Technically all you would need is something- even an unsupported, massive object- to get purchase in order to use sudden leap. Boots that temporarily conjure large blocks of lead under the user's feat for less than a second would allow for the use of sudden leap in mid-air, allowing for double jumps. The way sudden leap is worded, it appears to ignore the normal movement requirements for moving before a jump and the normal penalties and usage for tumbling. Depending on how strictly you interpret "the initiator may tumble normally during the jump" the accelerated tumbling penalty may or may not apply.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-17-07, 01:05 AM	The tumbling would be a matter of choosing your jump and maybe twisting in midair - that's waht tumbling as part of movement is all about anyway. You don't need purchasein midair - ever seen a cat fall?
Marcus Majarra 02-17-07, 12:33 PM	Technically all you would need is something- even an unsupported, massive object- to get purchase in order to use sudden leap. Boots that temporarily conjure large blocks of lead under the user's feat for less than a second would allow for the use of sudden leap in mid-air, allowing for double jumps. The way sudden leap is worded, it appears to ignore the normal movement requirements for moving before a jump and the normal penalties and usage for tumbling. Depending on how strictly you interpret "the initiator may tumble normally during the jump" the accelerated tumbling penalty may or may not apply. Are you certain? I don't remember that a solid object in mid-air grants any leverage on its own unless the object itself can remain in mid-air without falling (such as an airplane).
Toptomcat 02-17-07, 02:04 PM	Imagine free fall as weightless, which it effectively is. That should clear up a lot of confusion.
Icewraith 02-17-07, 10:06 PM	Equal and opposite reactions. This is just like a rocket engine, only you're ejecting magically conjured blocks or an unfortunate mid-air opponent for thrust instead of superheated gas.
Lord Nedd 02-17-07, 10:39 PM	Hmm. This smacks of one of those lovely classical physics point reference problems. You can simulate a magically created lead brick under your feet as a rock on a frickonless plane (along the axes of the push, of course). As you push with your feet, all you would do is push the lead brick along an infinite distance. Or in other words, as you tried to push off the lead bricks, they would just fly off in the direction of opposite of the force vector (the kick motion) at a speed equal to the strength of the jump - a small amount of air friction + any additional forces such as gravity. Eventually, the brick will hit something ... or someone. (A great 'Gods Must be Crazy moment, there... Do that date me?! ) In order to have these boots work properly, you would need to make the bricks be held immovable for a round before disappearing. It is possible in a magical campaign. The question is, is it worth the time to design such an item as a DM? -LN
Donovan Morningfire 05-15-07, 04:30 PM	Simple Solution = Sudden Leap + Leaping Dragon Stance (+10 to Jump checks, automatically considered to have a running start). Lots of movement as a swift action and still leaves you a full-round action if necessary. I've used that combo to descriptively spring-board off a hobgoblin's shield to come to the immediate aid of non-combat focused PCs (opted not to try Tumble and suffer the AoO since I needed the distance). Even allowed one player to make a pretty good wisecrack about it. The way Sudden Leap is written, I'd agree the penalties for using Tumble and not having a running start would apply.
fukifino 05-15-07, 06:54 PM	You could also use the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2 (no penalty for standing jumps, +5 to check if you actually move 20ft.) Don't really have an opinion on the tumble component.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-16-07, 12:57 AM	Ok. Leap of the Heavens (PHII) Quick trait (+10' move = +4 to the jump check) And (drum roll) ... 1 level of Thief-Acrobat (Complete Adventurer)! Allows you to tumble at full speed.
Donovan Morningfire 05-16-07, 07:45 PM	You could also use the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2 (no penalty for standing jumps, +5 to check if you actually move 20ft.) That works too, but depending on how feat-starved your Warblade is, it might be a feat that could be better spent elsewhere on a feat chain such as Spring Attack, Great Cleave, or even Weapon Mastery.
Optimized_Commoner 05-20-07, 10:03 AM	As for the "jump off something unsupported in mid air", then yes it's entirely possible (in real world physics) so long as you can touch it with your feet. You push them one way, they push you the other way. Simple newtonian action-reaction pair. Same reason a rocket can propel itself forwards by sending a column of burning jet fuel backwards. The only way this won't work is if the object is too fragile and breaks when you kick it, since this will disperse most of the force you create. Only problem with conjuring something under your feet is that if you're moving up (due to your momentum) and they're moving down (due to gravity) is that you won't be able to connect to kick off unless you conjure them while your knees are bent and very quickly unbend them to jump.
Karla 06-04-07, 10:25 AM	Do you have to halve that if you did not move 20' prior? Or is it as it says - you move the number of feet that your check result indicates. There's a customer service ruling on this one, quoted here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9897970&postcount=211 Basically jump-related maneuvers are not treated as if they were standing jumps for purposes of DCs/range. If you tumble midair to avoid an attack of opportunity, do you figure the distance by treating the squares you move through as half movement (as usual)? My personal opinion would be that the entire jump has to be made at the same speed. So you choose (before rolling) whether to move (up to) your full jump distance at full speed or elect to move half your rolled jump distance at half speed.
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-04-07, 08:30 PM	There's a customer service ruling on this one, quoted here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9897970&postcount=211 Basically jump-related maneuvers are not treated as if they were standing jumps for purposes of DCs/range. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. I will ask the DM if I may re-engineer my character just a tad in light of this ruling and trade in Leap of the Heavens for another feat. Adaptive Style, here I come! W00T!
Karla 06-05-07, 05:31 AM	Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. You're welcome. That thread really is required reading for anyone wishing to play or DM a character using Tome of Battle. I remain fairly impressed with Wizard's customer service for rules queries - they're fast and if not always 'right' first time, are open to discussion where something is obviously wrong or confusing with their answer - but I'd have to say the playtesting/proofreading on Tome of Battle was well short of the standard I'd expect. And the lack of any 'official' collated errata or custserv FAQ after all this time is extremely disappointing. (And there's still not one consistent explanation of how the Crusader's recovery mechanism is supposed to work! CustServ had after several iterations eventually settled on one - and then the Sage went and contradicted it again! So it's anyone's guess really!)
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-06-07, 05:07 AM	but I'd have to say the playtesting/proofreading on Tome of Battle was well short of the standard I'd expect No kidding. Iron Heart Surge, in particular - there's a ruling somehere to the effect that if you are in an antimagic field, a surge will dispel it completely. Ridiculous. My current character abuses Blood In The Water with twin kukris, TWF, and (at level 11) Dancing Mongoose. That's 8 attacks, threatening a critical on 15-20, and no limit to the bonus you can stack up. It makes sense to have the druid summon a bag of rats so you can pump up the bonus to something nutty before going up against the BBEG. Anyway. It's just a game. :)
Karla 06-06-07, 04:05 PM	No kidding. Iron Heart Surge, in particular - there's a ruling somehere to the effect that if you are in an antimagic field, a surge will dispel it completely. Ridiculous. Yeah, that's not a ruling that makes much sense to me. IHS should be about dramatically throwing off effects on your own body - so it ought to let you shake off dominations, charms, stuns, dazes - which it doesn't - but shouldn't totally nullify external area effects - which it does! However that's not really what I was driving at as that's a CustServ ruling - the problem is that the ToB ought to define what IHS works on and what it doesn't, but doesn't actually say in enough detail. I love the ToB ideas to bits - but a bit of playtesting to discover the holes, ambiguities and downright stupidities (my favourite was when CustServ told me that damage rolls were an exception to the rule which (amongst others) specifically states that bonuses to damage rolls do not stack!) would not have gone amiss! My current character abuses Blood In The Water with twin kukris, TWF, and (at level 11) Dancing Mongoose. That's 8 attacks, threatening a critical on 15-20, and no limit to the bonus you can stack up. Hm... my character's a Dervish/Warblade so could in theory use twin scimitars like this. If she had any TWF feats that is, which alas she doesn't. Ah well, maybe next character... :)
hecknoshow 06-11-07, 02:43 PM	Just to help out about being able to take purchase on something that is in midair so you can jump off it. It can be done if its Mass is at least 1half to 1third the character jumping(approx/educated guess). I free-run alot and after reading this thread a friend of mine and I tried it using each other as spring boards while in the air. Its damn hard though but I'm prob only lvl 1or2(3if I'm feelin generous) as it is so a lvl8 shouldn't find it so hard. On a side note, being a Human springboard hurts, ALOT(land on face).