Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faelar006 09-18-07, 03:47 PM	This question came up during our session the other day and I was wanting to see if anyone could provide some clarification on this. The group was fighting a cleric with the Death Domain. I grappled the cleric and ended up pinning him, exercising my option to keep him from speaking. The Death domain ability allows the cleric to touch someone and deliver a death touch. Since the death touch is a supernatural ability and as such is not subject to Concentration checks or AoOs, I assume that it does not have verbal, somatic or material components. However, since the text of the domain ability specifies that a touch attack must be made, I was wondering if a pinned character would be able to make a touch attack while using a supernatural ability. I know that pinning someone requires that you be in close proximity and that you do come into contact with them, but does that fulfill the requirements of a touch attack? The point is moot for the purposes of that session, since the DM eventually ruled in my favor after we looked at all the information on touch attacks, supernatural abilities, pinning and grappling that we had available and I told him I wouldn't argue with his final ruling (I'm a DM too so I know how that goes). He ended up escaping my pin and death touching me a couple of rounds later, (but I lived!). I'm mainly wanting to know because I want to tell him if I was wrong in my argument and because I've started running a game and would like to have some additional support to fall back on if a similar situation arises. Thanks, Faelar
Kouk 09-18-07, 08:52 PM	I don't think this situation is exactly covered in the rules, but I see no reason why you couldn't make a Touch attack or cast a Supernatural ability while Pinned. You already can make a Grapple check to break out of the Pin, so presumably your hands are free, or at least already touching the other guy (pretty good pin if you have his hands tied up as well, but the game only makes a distinction about having their mouth held closed). It is explicitly allowed that you can cast a spell while Pinned, I don't think it would be hard to deliver that spell.
Lootus 09-18-07, 09:33 PM	I believe the only action you can take while pinned is to try to escape. So the cleric could not use his Death Touch supernatural ability while pinned.
Kouk 09-18-07, 09:46 PM	The only action you can take while pinned is to try to escape. So the cleric could not use his Death Touch supernatural ability while pinned. The Grapple entry says, Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. You can read it the literalist way and say that that is perhaps the only thing you can do, which bars Supernatural or Spell-like abilities I suppose... but Supernatural abilities say: Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). Which makes them even easier to use than a spell. You could argue that you may be able to "cast" the ability, but you then could not deliver it in any way. This seems to be the most literal interpretation of the rules. However, I feel you have to be "touching" the opponent in a Grapple, so it would not be an issue to make a Touch Attack. You are already touching each other, not trying to dodge.
Matthew77 09-18-07, 10:13 PM	You can't make any attacks while being pinned, touch or non-touch. You can cast a spell with no somatic or verbal component, or you can try to escape, but you can't make attack rolls for anything other than attempting to break the pin. If Pinning you gives me enough control to keep your mouth closed and stop you from moving or hitting me, it certainly gives me enough control to keep your magically charged hand from touching me.
weasel0 09-20-07, 05:44 PM	And such is where the abstract of DnD battle comes to a flaw. Nothing says you have to use your hand to touch. Any part of you can conceivably be used. Foot, leg, hand, arm(which is how you would pin a hand without touching), torso, head are all legitamite casting points of a touch attack(regardless of armor even). If it weren't, clerics wouldn't be able to deliver touch attacks(healing) through metal gauntlets(which they can).
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 11:29 PM	good question by the way. my g/f's a jergalite (death/fate) cleric in FR and this recently came to light as well. few schools of thought: strict interpretation-(Su) or no, it's still a touch attack, ie)a standard action to activate and touch. normally, you have to break out of pin to upgrade to grappling to make said attack(s). i'd even allow it on a Full Attack desite it being a Full Round Action (2 attacks, but not a StnrdAct) which is wonky technically; 1 "attack" to break pin, 1 to "touch", viola! corpse on top...but, i did say "strict interpretation". RAW means you probably have to bust out first then tag 'em metaphorical interpretation:-Death Touch (Su) is rare, you paid for it as a domain, only clerics get it, yes? You get 1 shot/day, that's it, so it should be a bit special considering it's either hit or miss, no grey area. Unless they did their intel on target, you should be rewarded for having a limited Domain Power (spells are on Cleric list anyway). that is, you're touching, regardless, bam! it's subtle, final, simple. grapple/pin/etc. might be irrelevant. consider FTR of equal Lvl. if he has you grappled, he's probably going to twist you up...and win. unless you get very lucky on an opposed grapple check, you're burger. this is why some clerics will hold a charged spell when they know the check is in the mail (incoming grapple), and even then, you still gotta' make the touch...which shouldn't be too hard on the AoO the Ftr draws assuming he doesn't have Imp. Grab/Grapple
heffroncm 09-22-07, 12:02 AM	Well, remember that a Touch Attack spell actually can't be delivered with any part of the body. You charge one hand with energy. It's specific enough that you can't use that hand to cast any other spells while charged. Now, while pinned, your movement is restricted. The entire point is your limbs can't be moved. As such, you're not going to be able to get your hand on the guy unless you break the pin first. Breaking a pin is an attack, and activating the supernatural ability is a standard action which includes an attack. No reason in my mind that you can't activate the ability, roll to break the pin, and if successful make your touch attack. If you miss, no big, still charged, try it again next round.
weasel0 09-22-07, 11:51 AM	Well, remember that a Touch Attack spell actually can't be delivered with any part of the body. You charge one hand with energy. Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. No where does it say that it's your hand. In fact, that bold part says "If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." The guy pinning you is definatly touching you. Spell discharges, he saves or dies.
heffroncm 09-22-07, 12:06 PM	I was operating off memory, could have sworn that touch spells and abilities were in a "hand," that you had to have a free hand to use them, couldn't use them while you were using a weapon and shield, and that there was a feat which would let you hold a charge in each hand. All of that taken together seemed to say the hand was the focal point, especially considering the flavor text of the touch spells and abilities that have them. I guess my problem is that Wizards, Clerics, and Druids already rule the game. Grapple was the one area that, short of Freedom of Movement or Dimension Door, they were in trouble. Now, with an Irresistable Dance, Maddening Scream, or Nybor's Joyful Voyage, it's actually more dangerous to grapple a caster than to melee him.
1 ton ghost 09-22-07, 01:44 PM	just a heads up, Death Touch that fails to "touch" or overcome subject's current HP is still expended. it's not treated like an Inflict/Cure/etc in that you can hold it. this further limitation might allude to more relaxed conditions given grapple, but it's open to interpretation. realistically, yeah, i think the hand is the focal point of the attack, though i guess you could kick or head butt i suppose though i think it might, um, sap some of the dramatic punch of snuffing out someone's life force. the headbutt of doom... probably should make the opposed grapple check to bust a pin, then 1 more to attack in grapple. as previously mentioned but now expanded, grapple darws AoO typically. you could feasibly make the death touch (standard action/attack) or an Inflict (i think, standard action) and make the touch alot easier than a normal hit. any dmg rendered stops grapple. my question is can you still bust out that spell given the free attack via AoO and touch, or must it be already charged/held and pending incoming grappler? we allow this for death touch, but it's alot simpler as a (Su) rather than (Sp) and the like.