Trip and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trip and AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pheron
04-14-07, 01:05 PM I've reviewed the RAW and there is still a dispute in my games about one aspect of the trip attack.
After a failed trip the defender get a free trip attack against the attacker. That's all well and good. If the attcker used a weapon he did not trigger an AoO when he started the trip, but the defender doesn't have a weapon. When the defender makes his free trip attack, does he trigger an AoO from the original attacker?
My reading of the rules is that unless you are *using* a weapon or have Improved Trip tou always trigger an AoO when tripping, but players in my game argue that beacuse the original attacker can drop his weapon to avoid being tripped the orginal defender does not trigger an AoO because the defender is user the attacks weapon as the method of trip. Therefore making it an armed instead of an unarmed trip attack.
Any thoughts on this?
tos_shai_hulud
04-14-07, 01:19 PM Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Note here that the trip attempt does not cause an attack of opportunity. Only the unarmed melee touch attack against your target does. The opposed check does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Now, when the trip attempt fails, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check. That Strength check is not an unarmed melee touch attack. It is not an attack at all. It is simply a Strength check. The melee touch has already occured when the attacker touched the defender. Contact does not need to be reestablished, because the attacker is still in contact with the defender.

So, no attack of opportunity against the defender.
ZenZ
04-15-07, 01:41 PM Does the Defender recieve an Attack of Opportunity if he tries to counter the Trip with a Trip after a failed Trip Attempt by the Attacker and does NOT have the Improved Trip Feat?

Does that make sense?
tos_shai_hulud
04-15-07, 02:01 PM Ok, let's try out some examples:

Assume that neither of two combatants has Improved Trip. We will call them A and D.

Scenario 1:
A attempts a trip attack against D.
D receives an attack of opportunity.
D chooses to make a normal melee attack.
A fails his trip attempt.
D attempts to trip A back.
Note here that D did not make a trip attack.
This is still A's attack, not D's. Since A's trip attempt (which was a part of his attack) failed, D receives the opportunity to attempt to trip him. D's trip attempt is actually still part of A's attack, so it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Scenario 2:
A attempts a trip attack against D.
D receives an attack of opportunity.
D chooses to make a Trip attack.
A receives an attack of opportunity.
Scenario 1:
A decides to make a melee attack.
Scenario 2:
A decides to make a trip attack.
D receives an attack of opportunity (but since D has already used an attack of opportunity, D can only take it IF he has Combat Reflexes).
If he has Combat Reflexes, he may make any type of attack of opportunity he likes, even if it might provoke a further attack of opportunity. (Note that A has also already used his attack of opportunity, so if D chooses an action that provokes one, A must have Combat Reflexes to capitalize on it.)
If A's attack of opportunity resulted in D's trip attempt no longer being a valid attack, D's trip attempt automatically fails.
Otherwise, resolve D's trip attack as normal.
If D's trip attack results somehow in A's trip attempt no longer being a valid attack, A's trip attempt automatically fails.
Otherwise, resolve A's trip attack as normal.

Does this clear it up at all?
Tony Vargas
04-16-07, 08:15 PM pheron: I think the idea is that when you try to trip someone, you're struggling with them, you either wrap a weapon like a chain around them and pull, or snag them with a hooked weapon like a guisarm, or just try to shove them down or kick thier feat out from under them. If you fail, it's possible that in the struggle, you go down (or lose your weapon), instead. So the defender's trip attempt isn't an attack, and wouldn't provoke, rather, it's part of resolving the attacker's action.
ZenZ
04-17-07, 12:14 AM Tos,

Care to demo if one of the two foes DOES have the Improved Trip Ability?

I find that a PC with the Feat: Improved Trip is very deadly. It is much easier to Trip than avoid being Tripped.
Nom
04-17-07, 12:20 AM Does the Defender recieve an Attack of Opportunity if he tries to counter the Trip with a Trip after a failed Trip Attempt by the Attacker and does NOT have the Improved Trip Feat?No. As Tos said, the AoO is provoked by the touch attack to start the trip, not by the opposed trip roll.
Nom
04-17-07, 12:28 AM Care to demo if one of the two foes DOES have the Improved Trip Ability?If a character has Improved Trip, make the following changes:

(1) No AoO is provoked by choosing to make a trip attack.

(2) If the attacker's trip is successful, he then gets a regular attack against the fallen defender.

If the initial trip attack fails from an Improved Trip-per, the defender may still attempt to trip back. If the defender has Improved Trip, they gain a +4 to this roll. They don't get a free attack because they didn't use an attack to begin with (and thus can't benefit from "as if you didn't use your attack for the trip attempt").
I find that a PC with the Feat: Improved Trip is very deadly. It is much easier to Trip than avoid being Tripped.And it's much easier to hit a guy once he's lying on the ground with a -4 AC penalty.

Note that quadrupeds, dwarves, and larger creatures are difficult to trip. Quadrupeds and dwarves get a +4 to their defensive trip roll, while larger creatures get a net +4 per size category on both attack and defense. The good news is that the +4 works in the tripper's favour against smaller creatures, a fact my PC made good use of in a recent battle against goblins in half-plate. AC 19 is all well and good, but their touch AC was only 11, and they gave up +9 to me on the opposed trip roll (+4 size, +4 improved trip, +1 ability score difference).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pheron 04-14-07, 01:05 PM	I've reviewed the RAW and there is still a dispute in my games about one aspect of the trip attack. After a failed trip the defender get a free trip attack against the attacker. That's all well and good. If the attcker used a weapon he did not trigger an AoO when he started the trip, but the defender doesn't have a weapon. When the defender makes his free trip attack, does he trigger an AoO from the original attacker? My reading of the rules is that unless you are using a weapon or have Improved Trip tou always trigger an AoO when tripping, but players in my game argue that beacuse the original attacker can drop his weapon to avoid being tripped the orginal defender does not trigger an AoO because the defender is user the attacks weapon as the method of trip. Therefore making it an armed instead of an unarmed trip attack. Any thoughts on this?
tos_shai_hulud 04-14-07, 01:19 PM	Making a Trip Attack Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks. If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. Note here that the trip attempt does not cause an attack of opportunity. Only the unarmed melee touch attack against your target does. The opposed check does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Now, when the trip attempt fails, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check. That Strength check is not an unarmed melee touch attack. It is not an attack at all. It is simply a Strength check. The melee touch has already occured when the attacker touched the defender. Contact does not need to be reestablished, because the attacker is still in contact with the defender. So, no attack of opportunity against the defender.
ZenZ 04-15-07, 01:41 PM	Does the Defender recieve an Attack of Opportunity if he tries to counter the Trip with a Trip after a failed Trip Attempt by the Attacker and does NOT have the Improved Trip Feat? Does that make sense?
tos_shai_hulud 04-15-07, 02:01 PM	Ok, let's try out some examples: Assume that neither of two combatants has Improved Trip. We will call them A and D. Scenario 1: A attempts a trip attack against D. D receives an attack of opportunity. D chooses to make a normal melee attack. A fails his trip attempt. D attempts to trip A back. Note here that D did not make a trip attack. This is still A's attack, not D's. Since A's trip attempt (which was a part of his attack) failed, D receives the opportunity to attempt to trip him. D's trip attempt is actually still part of A's attack, so it does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Scenario 2: A attempts a trip attack against D. D receives an attack of opportunity. D chooses to make a Trip attack. A receives an attack of opportunity. Scenario 1: A decides to make a melee attack. Scenario 2: A decides to make a trip attack. D receives an attack of opportunity (but since D has already used an attack of opportunity, D can only take it IF he has Combat Reflexes). If he has Combat Reflexes, he may make any type of attack of opportunity he likes, even if it might provoke a further attack of opportunity. (Note that A has also already used his attack of opportunity, so if D chooses an action that provokes one, A must have Combat Reflexes to capitalize on it.) If A's attack of opportunity resulted in D's trip attempt no longer being a valid attack, D's trip attempt automatically fails. Otherwise, resolve D's trip attack as normal. If D's trip attack results somehow in A's trip attempt no longer being a valid attack, A's trip attempt automatically fails. Otherwise, resolve A's trip attack as normal. Does this clear it up at all?
Tony Vargas 04-16-07, 08:15 PM	pheron: I think the idea is that when you try to trip someone, you're struggling with them, you either wrap a weapon like a chain around them and pull, or snag them with a hooked weapon like a guisarm, or just try to shove them down or kick thier feat out from under them. If you fail, it's possible that in the struggle, you go down (or lose your weapon), instead. So the defender's trip attempt isn't an attack, and wouldn't provoke, rather, it's part of resolving the attacker's action.
ZenZ 04-17-07, 12:14 AM	Tos, Care to demo if one of the two foes DOES have the Improved Trip Ability? I find that a PC with the Feat: Improved Trip is very deadly. It is much easier to Trip than avoid being Tripped.
Nom 04-17-07, 12:20 AM	Does the Defender recieve an Attack of Opportunity if he tries to counter the Trip with a Trip after a failed Trip Attempt by the Attacker and does NOT have the Improved Trip Feat?No. As Tos said, the AoO is provoked by the touch attack to start the trip, not by the opposed trip roll.
Nom 04-17-07, 12:28 AM	Care to demo if one of the two foes DOES have the Improved Trip Ability?If a character has Improved Trip, make the following changes: (1) No AoO is provoked by choosing to make a trip attack. (2) If the attacker's trip is successful, he then gets a regular attack against the fallen defender. If the initial trip attack fails from an Improved Trip-per, the defender may still attempt to trip back. If the defender has Improved Trip, they gain a +4 to this roll. They don't get a free attack because they didn't use an attack to begin with (and thus can't benefit from "as if you didn't use your attack for the trip attempt"). I find that a PC with the Feat: Improved Trip is very deadly. It is much easier to Trip than avoid being Tripped.And it's much easier to hit a guy once he's lying on the ground with a -4 AC penalty. Note that quadrupeds, dwarves, and larger creatures are difficult to trip. Quadrupeds and dwarves get a +4 to their defensive trip roll, while larger creatures get a net +4 per size category on both attack and defense. The good news is that the +4 works in the tripper's favour against smaller creatures, a fact my PC made good use of in a recent battle against goblins in half-plate. AC 19 is all well and good, but their touch AC was only 11, and they gave up +9 to me on the opposed trip roll (+4 size, +4 improved trip, +1 ability score difference).