Turning/Rebuking undead items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Turning/Rebuking undead items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-03-07, 01:45 AM Libris Mortis contains some items that affect turning/rebuking. For instance, the Lyre of the Restful Soul reduces turn resistance by four (potentially reducing an undead creature's effective hit dice versus turning below his actual hit dice). The best I can figure, if a bard were playing this lyre, and a cleric attempted a turn check, any vampires in the area would have no turn resistance, and any five or fewer hit die skeletons would be treated as one hit die skeletons. Is this too powerful an item? Additionally, a 10th level cleric would be able to destroy a five hit die vampire with his turn check or a nine hit die skeleton (as both would be treated as five hit dice for the purpose of turning). What about rebuking and commanding? Would this allow a 10th level evil cleric to command a 5th level vampire?

What about the Phylactery of Undead Turning from the SRD? Assuming the same 10th level cleric, could he now destroy undead with effectively 7 hit dice? And the evil cleric command them?

Does the Rod of the Netherworld from Libris Mortis stack with the Phylactery of Undead Turning granting a total of +7 to turning? Would a 7th level cleric be able to turn undead as a 14th level cleric? Would he be able to destroy any undead creature of 7 or fewer hit dice?

Now, if we combine all of these, a bard playing the Lyre of the Restful Soul in the presence of a 7th level vampire while a 7th level evil cleric wearing the Phylactery of Undead Turning and holding the Rod of the Netherworld rebukes undead, would the cleric gain control over the vampire? Each of these items is rather inexpensive, and a party might be able to find these items by 7th level, and almost definitely by 10th level. Was this intended? Or am I misreading how these things work?
kymaera
04-03-07, 04:45 PM The Phylactery of Undead Turning both in the name and in the text says that it is for turning, not rebuking. So that part of the combo wouldn't work.
tos_shai_hulud
04-03-07, 11:02 PM I figured that since the RAW declares them synonymous, it would work for the combo:

Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.

Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.

Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is "turning."

Am I interpreting this incorrectly?
kymaera
04-04-07, 02:03 PM Its aura is listed as "Moderate necromancy [good]"
That would imply that it applies only to turning, not rebuking since good clerics cannot rebuke as a rule.

Though, it would be easy to have a version that applies to rebuking.
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-07, 02:24 PM So, with that in mind, any ideas for this stuff? Would a 7th level cleric working with a decent bard (1st level probably, who takes a 10 on the perform check), be able to destroy or command a 7th level vampire? Is that ok if it does work? If a cleric spends all of his effort improving his turning abilities, should I allow things like that to happen?
Marcus Majarra
04-04-07, 05:03 PM If your cleric spends all his effort improving his turning abilities and arranges things so that his party is better equipped to fight/destroy undead, he's becoming an undead-slaying specialist. There should be no reason not to allow this. Organized groups of intelligent undead should be acquiring living underlings (such as living clerics or necromancers working with the undead for the promise of vampiric undeath, for example) to help defeat the cleric and his group, since using undead shock troops is usually a bad idea.

Keep in mind, however, that undead will always win when people die, so sending living underlings to fight their opponents is a win-win scenario. In the end, the living die, while the undead persist.
DreadArchon
04-05-07, 05:55 PM I'm DM'ing a group that uses the anti-undead stuff in Libris Mortis somewhat often. Having had numerous hours of experience with this, I would say that the items are fine, because (a) your characters are expending significant resources on specialization, which can really cause them problems when not fighting what they're built to fight (say there's a golem of some sort in the tomb), and (b) turning udead is underwhelming when limited to core only.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-03-07, 01:45 AM	Libris Mortis contains some items that affect turning/rebuking. For instance, the Lyre of the Restful Soul reduces turn resistance by four (potentially reducing an undead creature's effective hit dice versus turning below his actual hit dice). The best I can figure, if a bard were playing this lyre, and a cleric attempted a turn check, any vampires in the area would have no turn resistance, and any five or fewer hit die skeletons would be treated as one hit die skeletons. Is this too powerful an item? Additionally, a 10th level cleric would be able to destroy a five hit die vampire with his turn check or a nine hit die skeleton (as both would be treated as five hit dice for the purpose of turning). What about rebuking and commanding? Would this allow a 10th level evil cleric to command a 5th level vampire? What about the Phylactery of Undead Turning from the SRD? Assuming the same 10th level cleric, could he now destroy undead with effectively 7 hit dice? And the evil cleric command them? Does the Rod of the Netherworld from Libris Mortis stack with the Phylactery of Undead Turning granting a total of +7 to turning? Would a 7th level cleric be able to turn undead as a 14th level cleric? Would he be able to destroy any undead creature of 7 or fewer hit dice? Now, if we combine all of these, a bard playing the Lyre of the Restful Soul in the presence of a 7th level vampire while a 7th level evil cleric wearing the Phylactery of Undead Turning and holding the Rod of the Netherworld rebukes undead, would the cleric gain control over the vampire? Each of these items is rather inexpensive, and a party might be able to find these items by 7th level, and almost definitely by 10th level. Was this intended? Or am I misreading how these things work?
kymaera 04-03-07, 04:45 PM	The Phylactery of Undead Turning both in the name and in the text says that it is for turning, not rebuking. So that part of the combo wouldn't work.
tos_shai_hulud 04-03-07, 11:02 PM	I figured that since the RAW declares them synonymous, it would work for the combo: Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead. Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead. Regardless of the effect, the general term for the activity is "turning." Am I interpreting this incorrectly?
kymaera 04-04-07, 02:03 PM	Its aura is listed as "Moderate necromancy [good]" That would imply that it applies only to turning, not rebuking since good clerics cannot rebuke as a rule. Though, it would be easy to have a version that applies to rebuking.
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-07, 02:24 PM	So, with that in mind, any ideas for this stuff? Would a 7th level cleric working with a decent bard (1st level probably, who takes a 10 on the perform check), be able to destroy or command a 7th level vampire? Is that ok if it does work? If a cleric spends all of his effort improving his turning abilities, should I allow things like that to happen?
Marcus Majarra 04-04-07, 05:03 PM	If your cleric spends all his effort improving his turning abilities and arranges things so that his party is better equipped to fight/destroy undead, he's becoming an undead-slaying specialist. There should be no reason not to allow this. Organized groups of intelligent undead should be acquiring living underlings (such as living clerics or necromancers working with the undead for the promise of vampiric undeath, for example) to help defeat the cleric and his group, since using undead shock troops is usually a bad idea. Keep in mind, however, that undead will always win when people die, so sending living underlings to fight their opponents is a win-win scenario. In the end, the living die, while the undead persist.
DreadArchon 04-05-07, 05:55 PM	I'm DM'ing a group that uses the anti-undead stuff in Libris Mortis somewhat often. Having had numerous hours of experience with this, I would say that the items are fine, because (a) your characters are expending significant resources on specialization, which can really cause them problems when not fighting what they're built to fight (say there's a golem of some sort in the tomb), and (b) turning udead is underwhelming when limited to core only.