Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GrondGala 07-09-07, 08:16 AM	G'day all, Would be most appreciative of a clarification on this one... I have 13 turn attempts per day (3 base + 2 cha + 8 extra turning). Let's say I cast Eagle's Splendour in the morning. Would this give me the extra turns I need to persist 2 spells?
runestar 07-09-07, 08:18 AM	Yes.
Phrennzy 07-09-07, 01:39 PM	In 3.5 Eagle's Splendor only lasts 1 min/ level. So You'd lose those extra turns once the spell effect wears off.
Merestil Haye 07-09-07, 04:31 PM	In 3.5 Eagle's Splendor only lasts 1 min/ level. So You'd lose those extra turns once the spell effect wears off.However, if he's already used the extra turn attempts, nothing bad happens. Character starts off with 12 turning attempts. He has used 0. Character casts Eagle's Splendour, increasing turn attempts to 14. Character casts persistent spell using DMM. Character can Turn 14 times per day and has used 7. Character casts persistent spell using DMM. Character can Turn14 times per day and has used 14. Eagle's Splendour expires. Character can Turn 12 times per day and has used 14. Character wishes to Turn Undead later in the day. Before he can do so he must find a way of increasing the number of time he can turn in a day to 15 or more. This is discussed in the FAQ - look under the Cleric entries.
GrondGala 07-09-07, 07:36 PM	Thank you all very much. This is discussed in the FAQ - look under the Cleric entries. Oooh, oooh! Where?
GrondGala 07-09-07, 08:52 PM	Found it! Thanks :)
Colmarr 07-11-07, 06:57 PM	It's worth noting that the FAQ is not authoritative law as far as D&D goes. Personally, I wouldn't allow it. If you do, I don't see why you wouldn't also allow prepared spell casters to magically create extra spell slots for themselves by leaving some open, casting the appropriate ability buff (eg. Fox's Cunning), and then filling their empty slots. Sure the slots go away when the Fox's Cunning expires, but by that time you can have cast all your long duration buffs "for free". My $0.02
GrondGala 07-11-07, 10:25 PM	What's the duration on Fox's Cunning? How long does it take to prepare spells? I hate being AFB ><
Colmarr 07-11-07, 10:42 PM	Fox's cunning lasts 1 min/level (of course it can be extended using the feat). As for spell preparation: If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state. So per RAW (and assuming the logic for turning attempts in the FAQ is correct) a wizard with Fox's Cunning and Extend Spell could pull off this trick at 8th level. The Fox's Cunning would use a 3rd level spell (or 2nd level with Sudden Extend Spell), but net the wizard additional spell slots of the appropriate level (determined by the wizards starting intelligence - eg. going from 16 Int to 18 Int grants the wizard a bonus 4th level slot). The trick isn't so bad at lower levels or low intelligence, but going from 26 Int to 28 Int grants a bonus 1st, 5th, and 9th level slot. Hence, I'd rule that Eagle's Splendour doesn't create extra turning attempts for the day.
runestar 07-11-07, 10:54 PM	It's worth noting that the FAQ is not authoritative law as far as D&D goes. Personally, I wouldn't allow it. If you do, I don't see why you wouldn't also allow prepared spell casters to magically create extra spell slots for themselves by leaving some open, casting the appropriate ability buff (eg. Fox's Cunning), and then filling their empty slots. Because while it specifically states that stat boosting spells do not grant bonus slots, the rules say nothing about not granting extra turn attempts or additional uses of special abilities whose quantity is stat-dependent. In effect, there is nothing explicitly stating that this does not work. For example, a knight with eagle's splendor cast on him would get 2 extra uses of knight's challenge. A barb with bear's endurance gets 2 extra rounds of rage. Turn undead should be compared along these lines, rather than with spellcasting, IMO. They are each governed by their own separate set of rules.:)
Colmarr 07-11-07, 11:33 PM	D'oh! :D You are of course correct that the text of Fox's Cunning specifically states that it doesn't grant spell slots. You then have the issue that a spell allegedly grants additional uses of one type of limited-use ability (turning) but not another (spells). /shrug. Your call, but either way, my original point is still valid - the FAQ is not authoritative law.
GrondGala 07-11-07, 11:46 PM	So per RAW (and assuming the logic for turning attempts in the FAQ is correct) a wizard with Fox's Cunning and Extend Spell could pull off this trick at 8th level. The Fox's Cunning would use a 3rd level spell (or 2nd level with Sudden Extend Spell), but net the wizard additional spell slots of the appropriate level (determined by the wizards starting intelligence - eg. going from 16 Int to 18 Int grants the wizard a bonus 4th level slot). The trick isn't so bad at lower levels or low intelligence, but going from 26 Int to 28 Int grants a bonus 1st, 5th, and 9th level slot. Aside from the spell description explicitly forbidding this... Remember that the spell grants an enhancement bonus to the stat, just like, say, a Headband of Intellect. Enhancement bonuses don't stack. Any caster that can cast 9th level spells is going to have at LEAST an item of +4 to their casting stat. One would think anyway. The sole exception, of course, being a character with Vow of Poverty. But that's a whole different level of broken ;) Oh, and they'd likely have their attribute increases in their casting stats by that level anyway.
Andrew 07-12-07, 01:09 AM	The above posters are right regarding the rules and the FAQ. One point of advice from the phrasing of your question: If this question relates to your character in someone else's game, it's important to have some moderation and to give good support instead of just throwing the FAQ at your DM. Divine Metamagic, especially for Persistent, is a strong ability, and it requires trust between you and your DM to make it work in a game. A good dialog is needed between player and DM to be clear on what both consider fair for the campaign and to ensure that the character can be presented with appropriate challenges.
runestar 07-12-07, 06:15 AM	Your call, but either way, my original point is still valid - the FAQ is not authoritative law. No, it most certainly is not. But their explanation is the most convincing and exhaustive one I have ever read. Consider me sold regarding their take on this particular issue.:)
Leilond 07-12-07, 06:25 AM	The above posters are right regarding the rules and the FAQ. One point of advice from the phrasing of your question: If this question relates to your character in someone else's game, it's important to have some moderation and to give good support instead of just throwing the FAQ at your DM. Divine Metamagic, especially for Persistent, is a strong ability, and it requires trust between you and your DM to make it work in a game. A good dialog is needed between player and DM to be clear on what both consider fair for the campaign and to ensure that the character can be presented with appropriate challenges. This is the way to go. Talk with your DM, pointing out how the rules is supposed to work withing the FAQ suggestion and ask him if he agree and sound fair for the campaign you're playing
Phrennzy 07-12-07, 10:50 AM	Because while it specifically states that stat boosting spells do not grant bonus slots, the rules say nothing about not granting extra turn attempts or additional uses of special abilities whose quantity is stat-dependent. In effect, there is nothing explicitly stating that this does not work. Wait, does this mean that a cloak of Charimsa will not give a Sorcerer extra spells per day? Or is just that buffing yourself with the spell does not grant the extra spells per day?
Downtym 07-12-07, 11:11 AM	G'day all, Would be most appreciative of a clarification on this one... I have 13 turn attempts per day (3 base + 2 cha + 8 extra turning). Let's say I cast Eagle's Splendour in the morning. Would this give me the extra turns I need to persist 2 spells? In this example, you would gain 2 Turns from casting Eagle's Splendor on yourself - for a total of 15 - for the duration of the spell. Now, assume you run off and use 13 Turns and then Eagle's Splendor runs out. How many Turns do you have left? 0. You've used 13 and without Eagle's Splendor, you have 13 per day that you can use. You cannot cherry-pick and decide to "use" the 2 from Eagle's Splendor first. So, now you've used 13 Turns and you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself again. You now have 2 Turns to use. (15 per day - 13 used = 2 left). You use 2 Turns and Eagle's Splendor runs out. How many Turns do you have left? 0 (Technically, -2). If you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself again, you would still have 0 Turns left (15 per day - 15 used = 0 left).
eamon 07-12-07, 11:54 AM	Concerning stat boost such as eagle’s splendor and the gaining of bonus spell slots: Aside from the spell description explicitly forbidding this... Huh, I'd never noticed! What a pointless limitation. Useless rules just make things more complex. I'm pretty sure if a player asked me I'd let him anyway. So a paladin gets a boost to his saves and can automagically heal more damage with lay on hand, but a sorcerer can't cast an extra spell... hmmm odd. Of course, the question is, when does a sorcerer gain his slots because of high charisma - during his 15 minute daily preparation, or constantly? If he gains them constantly, then clearly, he'ld need to be able to cast an eagles splendor which lasts for the entire 15 minutes (that's 15th caster level right there), and anyways, by casting a spell before preparation he loses it afterwards (meaning, it would cost him two slots a day...) so it would probably never be worthwhile... ...ok sorry for the rambling post ;)
Merestil Haye 07-12-07, 12:26 PM	Wait, does this mean that a cloak of Charimsa will not give a Sorcerer extra spells per day? Or is just that buffing yourself with the spell does not grant the extra spells per day?Modifiers to abilities grant the new value for all purposes that the rules or the source of the modification itself do not explicitly rule out. Since the buff spells say they exclude bonus spells, bonus spells are excluded. Since the ability enhancement items do not exclude increased bonus spells, bonus spells are granted.
runestar 07-12-07, 12:42 PM	Wait, does this mean that a cloak of Charimsa will not give a Sorcerer extra spells per day? Or is just that buffing yourself with the spell does not grant the extra spells per day? Just buffing. It certainly does not seem fair for a 2nd lv spell to be granting, say, a 3rd lv or higher spell slot...;)
Phrennzy 07-12-07, 12:48 PM	Just buffing. It certainly does not seem fair for a 2nd lv spell to be granting, say, a 3rd lv or higher spell slot...;) Oh, lol, DUR! Thanks. My Sorcerer was beginning to sweat.
eamon 07-13-07, 08:35 AM	Just buffing. It certainly does not seem fair for a 2nd lv spell to be granting, say, a 3rd lv or higher spell slot...;) Except that it does seem fair (at least as fair as a palading "suddenly" gaining extra turning and healing), seeing as it costs an extra action, and further seeing that you'd need to buff for a full 15 minutes somehow, which isn't easy ;-). I think the rule is just there to avoid confusion an people thinking that you could buff, and "suddenly" get more spells, despite the fact that you gain your spellslots only during the 15 minutes of meditation each day ;-). Compare also to charisma and intelligence damage. This doesn't cause you to lose spells (unless your primary casting stat falls to below 10+spell level). In other words, normally, you should only be able to gain bonus spells if you could be boosted for the entire duration of the daily meditation - quite unlike turn undead, which is simply granted without meditation (right?) In any case, beyond being a seriously worthless strategy, the spell for some odd reason explicitly prevents it. You could even rule that casting the spell before your daily meditation ruins your required 8 hours of rest, meaning someone else would have to cast it :D. Well, enough gedankenexperiment already...
weasel0 07-13-07, 04:52 PM	Just buffing. It certainly does not seem fair for a 2nd lv spell to be granting, say, a 3rd lv or higher spell slot...;) Even if it did, once the buff expired, the extra slots and their respectively prepared spells would vanish.
runestar 07-13-07, 10:45 PM	Even if it did, once the buff expired, the extra slots and their respectively prepared spells would vanish. Which is moot if you have already cast the spell in the slot anyways.:)
eamon 07-14-07, 09:02 AM	Even if it did, once the buff expired, the extra slots and their respectively prepared spells would vanish. They would not... If you have a headband of intellect on while concentrating on new spells as a wizard, if, later on in the day, you take it off you don't instantly lose (or vice-versa gain) spell slots - right?
Nom 07-15-07, 12:37 AM	Lose, yes. Gain, no. You instantly gain the potential, but the slots themselves come into play unprepared (think of it as "cast") and can't be made ready until you've gone through your normal rest-and-prep regimen.
qmslager 07-15-07, 01:43 AM	Because while it specifically states that stat boosting spells do not grant bonus slots, the rules say nothing about not granting extra turn attempts or additional uses of special abilities whose quantity is stat-dependent. In effect, there is nothing explicitly stating that this does not work. For example, a knight with eagle's splendor cast on him would get 2 extra uses of knight's challenge. A barb with bear's endurance gets 2 extra rounds of rage. Turn undead should be compared along these lines, rather than with spellcasting, IMO. They are each governed by their own separate set of rules.:) In this case the rules are very explicit regardless of the FAQ. A spell booster temporarily increases ability scores. As the SRD discusses what happens when ability scores are raised temporarily, it says that all ability checks are at the higher score as are any check that relies on the ability modifier. The turn attempts are reliant on the ability modifier. Although the argument about extra spells is valid and a good point casters still get a boost to their appropriate caster level checks, SR attempts, and save DC's. Is a +2 to a paladins lay on hands as good as a +2 to a wizards hold person DC? I don't know. But this is covered in both FAQ and SRD. As far as extra spells for near permanent items, that was their point of existence in previous versions but under 3.5 I can see an argument that suggests they do not get extra slots. But the hard and fast rule and I think a FAQ is that you do get the extra slot because of it's near permanency, and in fact i think I've read that in later books. IMO the reason you don't get the bonus spell simply goes down to use. You can't boost any score high enough that wasting a spell to get a spell makes it worth it even if you spontaneously cast and you were sixteenth level. At most you will only get one extra higher level spell slot that you then have to spend time preparing the spell, and then quickly use it. For a sorceror who usually takes only attack spells he casts the spell waits fifteen minutes and then finally has fireball prepared again so he can attack the monster who has probably eaten him already? It's sort of a pointless attempt. There is no item that returns lost spells if the PC never had the spells to begin with. And I don't know of many monsters who will give you the pleasure of waiting fifteen minutes so you can cast fireball again. it might be beneficial to a sorceror if he was in the process of creating a potion, scroll, magic ring or wondrous itemso it can get done faster, but beyond that it is useless. C
eamon 07-15-07, 04:33 AM	Lose, yes. Gain, no. You instantly gain the potential, but the slots themselves come into play unprepared (think of it as "cast") and can't be made ready until you've gone through your normal rest-and-prep regimen. Do you have a reference for that? It's not what you'd expect to have happen based for instance on the description of Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm). Furthermore the rules on spell preparation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) say: A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. There's no place I can see that says you lose them if you intelligence drops, unless your intelligence drops below the minimum.
Nom 07-15-07, 05:57 PM	Do you have a reference for that? It's not what you'd expect to have happen based for instance on the description of Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm).Touch of idiocy is silent on the issue. There's no place I can see that says you lose them if you intelligence drops, unless your intelligence drops below the minimum.You need to make the distinction between slots and spellcasting. You get your regular slots regardless; you just can't put spells in them that are higher level than you can cast, and if the spell is already there you can't cast it. In contrast, there's ample precedent that the rules consider your current ability score (including damage, drain, bonuses and penalties) to always affect all things affected by that score, barring those few that are not (most Int mods and skill points, some buff spells and spell slots). The only point that bonus spells are called out as an exception is the short buffing spells; so we assume that otherwise they are affected. There's also ample precedent that (where possible) uncast spells are lost when slots are lost. For example, death rules, negative level rules, FAQ entry on X/day abilities. Spell slots are simply an X/day ability, with the added stipulation that you must undergo certain rituals before you can use them. Thus, I find it completely coherent with the rules to say that: (1) A slot must have been available during your daily prep to be used. (2) When you lose slots (mostly bonus slots through ability changing), you lose matching uncast slots where possible. (3) When you regain slots and have not used daily prep since you lost them, they come back with the spells intact. There's no explicit or even decent implicit precedent for #3 either way, but I like to think that they work roughly the same as other X/day abilities, and that restoring the ability penalties or damage also negates their effect on X/day abilities. Otherwise, touch of idiocy or similar can wipe multiple spells. Note that if you don't give the spells back with the slots then you ought to track which spell is in which slot. Otherwise you get a silly situation where multiple Int loss and recovery could cause you to lose your bonus spells multiple times.
eamon 07-16-07, 11:43 AM	@Nom: Your explanation doesn't answer my question. It may be that you're right, but you haven't actually referred to any section which states that spell slots take effect immediately. The only SRD section about preparing spells and spell slots and how it works I know of is the section on spell preparation. As a matter of fact, spells which do lower your ability explicitly state that this causes the loss of spells when the ability drops below the limit - suggesting that spells aren't lost otherwise. Spells which increase your primary casting stat temporarily explicitly state they don't grant extra spell slots. In fact, all explicit rules[/i[ simply state that your spells are effected insofar as that you need a certain minimum casting stat, and insofar as that temporary increases have no effect. So while you may be right, where's the reference? You make the counter argument that it just makes more sense to have them be lost even temporarily. Playing devil's advocate here, it's easy to make an alternative scenario which also makes sense: If spell slots are to be considered X/day abilities as per your suggestion, then consider them abilities active while you are preparing spells. A spell slot is represents the ability to take a lot of quiet time and thereby focus your mind to gain the ability to cast a spell. It's perfectly consistent to say that the ability granted by a spell slot could be roughly paraphrased as "You have the ability to use one spell of your choice of the level of this spell slot or lower 1/day. Activating the 'Spell Slot' ability takes 1 uninterrupted hour, however, you may activate multiple 'Spell Slot' abilities simultaneously". Relevant then is what your primary casting stat is during the quiet time (and potentially during the 8 hours preceding it) of the spell preparation process. [i]I'm saying, it's perfectly consistent to consider spell slots only relevant while preparing spells, and irrelevant once used. Touch of idiocy is not silent on the matter. It has only the following to say on the loss of a primary casting stat: This spell’s effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level. This suggests that exactly when the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required do you lose the ability to cast spells. Things like Energy drain are not ability drain, and function quite differently - they don't change your primary casting stat. So what are the two interpretations possible? A. A short-term change in your primary casting stat instantly affects the number of spells you can cast per day. B. A short term change in your primary casting stat has no effect because bonus spells are determined during long-term rest and spell preparation. If any confusion exists between those two options, when is it most apparent, and when you thus expect WotC to clarify the difference? When your casting stat changes temporarily, such as in touch of idiocy and in fox's cunning. Both stat-boosting and stat-damaging spells explicitly refer to an interpretation in which this short term change has no effect except if your casting stat falls below the required minimum. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that actually temporary changes to your casting stat only affect slots which does you no good (or bad) whatsoever (beyond the DC and minimum requirements and all that).
eamon 07-16-07, 11:47 AM	IMO the reason you don't get the bonus spell simply goes down to use. You can't boost any score high enough that wasting a spell to get a spell makes it worth it even if you spontaneously cast and you were sixteenth level. At most you will only get one extra higher level spell slot that you then have to spend time preparing the spell, and then quickly use it. For a sorceror who usually takes only attack spells he casts the spell waits fifteen minutes and then finally has fireball prepared again so he can attack the monster who has probably eaten him already? It's sort of a pointless attempt. There is no item that returns lost spells if the PC never had the spells to begin with. And I don't know of many monsters who will give you the pleasure of waiting fifteen minutes so you can cast fireball again. it might be beneficial to a sorceror if he was in the process of creating a potion, scroll, magic ring or wondrous itemso it can get done faster, but beyond that it is useless. Exactly ;)
Merestil Haye 07-16-07, 01:16 PM	I'm saying, it's perfectly consistent to consider spell slots only relevant while preparing spells, and irrelevant once used.No, it's not. The rules say that when an ability score changes, you immediately calculate what benefits the new ability gives you and apply those benefits. Nowhere does it say that applying a change to the number of spells granted by a high spellcasting ability is deferred until you next rest. It applies immediately, just like every other modifier to an ability score. That means :- Look up the new score Determine what bonus spells the new score gives you Calculate how many spells of each level you can now cast. If this results in reducing the number of spells of some levels you can cast, then you lose the ability to cast one spell slot of that level.A preparing caster may choose which prepared spell is lost.The FAQ confirms that reductions in the ability score are applied immediately.Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points. Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels.The boost spells rule themselves out. Even if you were to locate a 750th level caster and persuade him to cast an Extended ability boost spell (which lasts more than a full day) you get no bonus spell slots. Nothing about Touch of Idiocy says you don't lose spells So you do.
weasel0 07-16-07, 03:12 PM	:clap: @ Merestil Haye
eamon 07-17-07, 06:17 AM	The FAQ confirms that reductions in the ability score are applied immediately. Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for. :cool: