Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Psathus 02-04-08, 06:12 AM	I've been DMing a monk for some time, she is currently a Monk 11/Crusader 2 with a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike [Tome of Battle], bringing her up to her maximum. And then, pushing her maximum, she took improved natural attack [Unarmed Strike] to deal 4d8 a hit. I am currently wondering if Monk's Belt stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike in this case? (I know Improved Natural Attack Stacks, since it doesn't boost any 'level', merely increasing the size of the damage dealt.
Father Dale 02-04-08, 12:09 PM	I'd think they 'stack.' They aren't really bonuses in the first place (such as an enhancement bonus or a circumstance bonus), they just have similar effects. Plus, they are from different sources, so even if they were bonuses, they should stack.
weasel0 02-04-08, 01:20 PM	Feats always stack.
darokinblade 02-04-08, 01:42 PM	weasel, I think that they are asking if an item, monk's belt, stacks with the feat superior unarmed strike. Both raise the monks effective level by 5, giving the next best damage for their strikes. I do concur with father dale tho, nothing in them says they do not stack, they are different sources. Usually, if an item and feat don't stack, one of them says so, such as keen weapons and improved critical.
weasel0 02-04-08, 02:42 PM	"I am currently wondering if Monk's Belt stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike in this case?" I answered it. Just from the opposite end. If SUS stacks with anything, then in this case it stacks with Monk's Belt.
Krusk 02-04-08, 08:15 PM	I believe that these stack, but keep in mind that unless you houserule anything, a monks unarmed damage tops out at level 20. Meaning she essentially won't be gaining any more unarmed damage ever, and eventually will have wasted a feat. Just something to keep in mind.
ElyasRavenwood 02-06-08, 11:53 PM	Lord Psathos, What does your DM say? And just out of curiosity, why would the feat Superior Unarmed strike stack with the Monks belt? I noticed in the entry for the monk’s belt states " the wearer's ac and unarmed damage are treated as a monk of five levels higher", p.248 DMG. The entry for the Superior Unarmed Strike states: "if you are a monk you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher". P33 ToB The descriptions are practically the same. The feat and magic have the same effect. They both allow the character unarmed damage of a monk 4 and 5 levels higher then his current level. In the game I believe a well-established precedent is: "identical types of bonuses do not stack"p.21Dmg. Then the Monks belt and Superior unarmed Strike feat would not stack in my opinion. The DMG goes on the bottom of the page to say, "Stacking restrictions keep the game within manageable limits". I know that some people will probably point out that I am miss applying a rule for bonus types to the bonus given by both a feat and a magical item. I don't think that I am. Oh just out of curiosity, what if I had a non monk character who took Improved Unarmed strike, and then Superior Unarmed Strike finished off with Improved Natural Attack? What kind of unarmed damage would the non-monk character do? What are your thoughts?
ElyasRavenwood 02-07-08, 12:01 AM	Lord_Psathus, I apologize; I should have read your post more closely. You are the DM. Well as one DM to another, I would rule that the monk’s belt and the Super Unarmed strike feat do not stack and provide the monk player character an effective+9 levels to their unarmed damage. I would decide this based on the "like bonuses do not stack" precedent.
Pezz 02-07-08, 12:10 AM	But what about bonuses without types? if a character got a +3 bonus to strength (no type) and then a +2 bonus to strength (again, no type, from a different item) would that not stack? types are inherent, magical, insight, holy, and unholy (i don't think i am missing any) but these don't have types assigned to them. RAW, it would work. however, I do think it is a bit cheesy. (Just be glad it's not a Warforged with mithril body and a battlefist [large sized damage])
ravenshrike 02-07-08, 12:18 AM	They're both referring to the characters actual level, and not to his current US damage. It acts sort of like Ray of Enfeeblement, in that the one with the greatest effect takes precedence.
Krusk 02-07-08, 02:32 AM	I believe that these stack I have no idea what I was thinking. If you actually look it is pretty clear they dont stack. I am sorry for any confusion.
weasel0 02-07-08, 02:55 PM	In keeping with 3.5, I'd have to agree they shouldn't. Like how they changed Imp. crit and Keen to not stacking. In 3.0, they did. Same thing but from different places so by rules they should stack like the SUS and the belt. From a balance POV, I can understand why they don't.
Lord_Psathus 02-10-08, 09:29 AM	Alright, thanks for all your help everybody. Now I just have to break it to the player that their unarmed strike is going down a bit. Thanks again! Lord_Psathus
Ace_of_time 02-14-08, 12:20 AM	I think that the bonuses from both are adding to your Actual Monk class levels. So they Over lap not stack. As a side note they could just increase their size to large which would increase Imp nat attack to huge. Any way it would have to say "what level monk you are considered to be" in order to stacks.
Draco_Whitewind 02-14-08, 03:36 AM	There is absolutely NO reason as to why they would not stack. The item in question is NOT duplicating some benefit effect such as bestowing a feat. it just treats the monk as if 5 levels higher for the purposes of damage and AC. The feat from the tome of battle, Superior unarmed strike increases the unarmed strike damage of a monk by 4 levels. This is JUST like caster level increases from various items, and class features. (Like the archmage plus many spells and other abilities that can push a caster level up). The Rules as written, point to absolutely no problem with the monk's belt stacking with superior unarmed strike. it is a nasty combo that allows a monk a heap more damage early, but nothing too ridiculous or game shattering yet, just powerful together.
Ace_of_time 02-14-08, 05:06 PM	Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. The belt above only treats the PC as a monk 5 levels higher for AC and unarmed damage. It doesn't increase your class levels in the monk class. The feat increases damage by the table unless you are a monk in which case you deal damage as a monk 4 levels high then you are. Both add to your class levels as they are. So they have 11 levels in monk so the belt would give them the AC bonus and unarmed damage of a 16th level monk but he is still 11th level. If the PC was some where where magic doesn't work then the feat would still let her deal damage as a 15th level monk because she even with the belt on only has 11 levels in monk class and both of them add to your class levels (for damage/AC) not what you are considered to be for the monk class.
Draco_Whitewind 02-14-08, 05:28 PM	I've emailed customer service, hopefully we can get it cleared up. but however, I see no reason they would not stack. It honestly looks exactly like unamed bonuses, and similar to caster level boost feats and abilities.
Ace_of_time 02-14-08, 06:15 PM	I assumed it would work the same as powerful build and monkey grip do. Thanks. I'll check back when you posted it. I really don't see the point any tring to get the max possible before your supposed to. The DM is just going to have to up the encounters to make up the defference and in reg games that will get someone/ all killed. But to each his/her own as they say.
Sunic_Flames 02-14-08, 06:53 PM	I'd allow them to stack if for no other reason than monks need all the help they can get. Furthermore, as what is effectively an unnamed bonus it would stack. Yeah, monk unarmed damage doesn't go above 20th level. That's why you go Monk 11/Crusader 9 and get the full benefits. Along with every worthwhile benefit of the monk class. Clearly the player knows this.
Draco_Whitewind 02-14-08, 09:37 PM	And the Custerv email answer Subject Superior unarmed strike + Monk's belt Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/14/2008 02:33 PM David, Yes, this feat and this item will stack. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. <a href="http://www.wizards.com/survey/custservemail0105.htm"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>. To login to your account, or update your question please <a href="http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/acct_login.php?p_userid=dracowhitewind3@ aol.com&p_next_page=myq_ilp.php">click here</a>. Joe Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (David ******) 02/14/2008 02:25 PM Both the feat superior unarmed strike, and the Monk's belt would increase the wearer's level for damage if he were a monk. does the feat which increases it by 4 levels, and the item, which would increase it by 5 levels, since neither are named bonuses of any kind, stack? If no, why not? Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. ******************** Page Number: Pg 33 Book Name: Tome of Battle, Not bad, I was hoping that was the case. Just hope the party wizard doesn't constantly enlarge him, :)
calronmoonflower 02-15-08, 03:32 AM	I've emailed customer service, hopefully we can get it cleared up. but however, I see no reason they would not stack. It honestly looks exactly like unamed bonuses, and similar to caster level boost feats and abilities. I do. They are two separate effects, one of which that renders the other irrelevant. Both refer directly back to you monk levels and there for the two effects are incapable of stacking. Think of it this way, each insert a new value instead of just adding to a value that already exists.
Draco_Whitewind 02-15-08, 04:18 AM	Items, skills and feats can't play ignorant of each other. The superior unarmed strike ability states absolutely nothing that its any sort of bonus that just doesn't set you higher. Both check the level of which your unarmed strike damage is, compared to your unarmed strike level and add to it. There is absolutely no name to the bonus, in fact its not a "bonus" that superior unarmed strike gives. You're just a monk as 4 levels higher for your unarmed strike damage if you are already one. two ITEMS granting the benefit could be questionable to stacking, that much I'd give you. but the item can't avoid seeing someone with their unarmed strike at +4 levels and add right on top of it. (And just to the poster above many posts up - Keen and improved critical are poor precedents, given that was done for "balance", and not for any sense of spirit of the rules or consistency like many other changes. in 3.0 they did stack just fine, and wasn't ever even a tiny bit broken.)
Ace_of_time 02-15-08, 09:58 AM	Powerful build and monkey grip is just about the same thing that we are talking about here. And they don't stack ether. Nether of those things ask for what you are considered to be for damage when adding the levels. They both add to your current class levels and any levels you get after that from XP or another class. What if the monk was a goliath and had take the monks belt and unamed strike feat (that we are talking about) and the monkey grip feat? Are you going to tell them that they can use the first to feats item combo because monks just suck but you can't use huge weapon with the 2nd combo because it is against the rules and they don't stack. He/she can get the same damage with out the two of them stacking. There is no reason to bend the rules for just one person or class. In this case.
Ace_of_time 02-15-08, 10:13 AM	And the Custerv email answer Subject Superior unarmed strike + Monk's belt Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/14/2008 02:33 PM David, Yes, this feat and this item will stack. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. <a href="http://www.wizards.com/survey/custservemail0105.htm"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>. To login to your account, or update your question please <a href="http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/acct_login.php?p_userid=dracowhitewind3@ aol.com&p_next_page=myq_ilp.php">click here</a>. Joe Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (David ******) 02/14/2008 02:25 PM Both the feat superior unarmed strike, and the Monk's belt would increase the wearer's level for damage if he were a monk. does the feat which increases it by 4 levels, and the item, which would increase it by 5 levels, since neither are named bonuses of any kind, stack? If no, why not? Belt, Monk’s This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. ******************** Page Number: Pg 33 Book Name: Tome of Battle, Not bad, I was hoping that was the case. Just hope the party wizard doesn't constantly enlarge him, :) The problem I have is that nether of those add levels to your class levels. They only up your damage and in the belts case AC. Both only add to you class levels for damage. how are you increasing their levels by 4 and 5 with both feat when they don't increase class level at all. Just what your considered to be for damage and both add that from your what your class level is. There is no way possible for them to stack.
Draco_Whitewind 02-15-08, 02:33 PM	Edit: cancel that, I'm not going to Cop-out over this. I honestly did not know there were other examples of feats and items not stacking in that method. So, I guess indeed they don't stack. :( (Ironically I had this same issue when I thought uncanny dodge worked a lot better than how it does)
weasel0 02-15-08, 06:05 PM	So instead what ya do is you use the monk's belt in combo with Imp Nat weapon and problem solved. (and then use say a 1/2 Ogre or Minotaur as the base creature and watch the dmg stack) this also solves the lv 20 dmg cap as the belt can be removed and sold/replaced for something more useful as you get higher in levels.
Ace_of_time 02-16-08, 01:08 AM	You don't need a large race. Just use magic. Per enlarge person spell combined with "The belt" and improved natural weapon would give 4d8 damage. The feat could still be used as a back up for when the belt isn't able to work. That is likily to happen at 13th level.
Sunic_Flames 02-16-08, 09:47 AM	The only reason Keen and Improved Critical don't stack in 3.5 is 3.0 +x Keen Vorpal Bladed Gauntlet + Improved Critical: Bladed Gauntlet = instant kill on a 9-20. As is often the case with balance issues, they double fixed it by both removing the stacking and making vorpal natural 20 only. When only the former or the latter would have been necessary, and the latter more suitable as it actually fixes the problem without an unexpected cascade effect. Needless to say, they overcompensated. Chances are by the time you have both half your opponents are immune to critical hits anyways. :P
calronmoonflower 02-16-08, 08:33 PM	You don't need a large race. Just use magic. Per enlarge person spell combined with "The belt" and improved natural weapon would give 4d8 damage. The feat could still be used as a back up for when the belt isn't able to work. That is likily to happen at 13th level. Or you can get the parties arcane caster to buff you with Mighty Wallop, Greater.
Ace_of_time 02-17-08, 02:12 AM	Mighty Wallop, Greater???? Never heard of it. I'll have to look it up.
calronmoonflower 02-17-08, 03:58 AM	It's on page 115 of Races of the Dragon.
Ace_of_time 02-19-08, 10:02 AM	It would be better if you could put it on an item. You could have them make some potions for the heat of battle when he is busy. It wouldn't stack with imp natural weapon feat.
Douglasm 02-22-08, 03:46 PM	Both the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike say your unarmed damage is as for a Monk "of X levels higher". Neither of them states what it is higher in relation to. There is no mention whatsoever in either the item or feat description directly referencing your actual Monk level. In the absence of such a statement, the obvious interpretation is "higher than without this item/feat", in which case they clearly do stack.
Ace_of_time 02-22-08, 08:21 PM	If that was the case you would just get the damage for 5th level monk or 4th level monk. It is understand that they are talking about you monk level. Are you really saying that they are not talking about adding to you monk level but then saying it would still give the damage for 20th level? How is that even possible?!?:confused: :confused: Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. The only way to be five levels higher monk for damage is by adding 5 to your monk class levels and then using that damage and AC. The same would be true for the feat. You would add the =4 to your monk level because it says four levels high for damage. Meaning you would add 4 to your class levels and then use that damage. If you look at them like you would a word problem in math you will see it.
Douglasm 02-23-08, 12:03 AM	It is understood that they are talking about your effective monk level for unarmed strike damage. This is not the same as your actual monk level. Try this wording: "The wearer's AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher than would otherwise be the case." Say you're an 11th level monk. Without the monk's belt, you have the unarmed damage of an 11th level monk. With it, you have the unarmed damage of a 16th level monk. Now add Superior Unarmed Strike. Without it but with the monk's belt, you have the unarmed damage of a 16th level monk. With it, you therefore have the unarmed damage of a 16+4 = 20th level monk. If the item and feat descriptions instead said something like this: "The wearer's AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher than her actual monk level," then the monk's belt would provide unarmed damage as a 16th level monk, SUS as a 15th level monk, and only the best would work. Not referencing actual monk level allows modifiers to that level to be included in the base that is added to. Neither such wording is actually present, but I think the first is the most reasonable general interpretation - modifiers are usually added to the total of something including other modifiers rather than overriding all those other modifiers, and exceptions are generally spelled out.
calronmoonflower 02-23-08, 12:15 AM	It is understood that they are talking about your effective monk level for unarmed strike damage. This is not the same as your actual monk level. In other words your argument is based off of something other than what the rules actually say. I wouldn't mind allowing them to stack or think it would be unreasonable to do so. However, it is not how they are written.
Douglasm 02-23-08, 12:35 AM	My argument is based on an interpretation of something the rules do not explicitly state one way or the other. By RAW it is ambiguous. The rules actually say "higher" with no explicit mention of either your actual monk level or your effective unarmed strike monk level, and either choice could be considered correct. I happen to think my interpretation is the most sensible and obvious one, and it also happens to agree with the CustServ response quoted earlier in this thread.
Pezz 02-23-08, 12:44 AM	Except, the sage answered that they do stack. The response email is post #20, on page 1. That reply indicates that, RAI, the feat/item references effective level, rather than actual class levels, making this something that is worded improperly and needs an errata. EDIT: Ninja'd
Krusk 02-23-08, 01:28 AM	Except, the sage answered that they do stack. The response email is post #20, on page 1. That reply indicates that, RAI, the feat/item references effective level, rather than actual class levels, making this something that is worded improperly and needs an errata. EDIT: Ninja'd So according to the rules, they do not stack. The designers said it should stack, and they made a mistake. But they haven't yet fixed it. So until an erratta is issued saying they stack, they do not. -note my game houseruled they stack quite a while ago, hence my confusion in my original post here.
weasel0 02-23-08, 03:08 AM	But the rules don't say, "they do not stack." The rules are completely silent. Either viewpoint could be correct, but we've been given clarification that they do stack.
Krusk 02-23-08, 06:22 PM	The rules use the same logic for monkey grip and powerful build not stacking. Two powers give an unspecified bonus that grants the same thing. They do not stack. Any reasonable DM would let them stack, but some are ridicilus. Ive seen some refuse to use erratta simply because it wasnt published in the book.
Douglasm 02-23-08, 06:29 PM	No, the critical point for Monkey Grip and Powerful Build is that they explicitly reference your actual size. Monkey Grip says "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are..." The Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike lack any equivalent of the highlighted clause.
Ace_of_time 02-24-08, 03:51 AM	You are ether adding it on to your class levels and they don't stack or they are not adding it in to your class levels and you would still use the 11th level monk damage seeing as how it is higher then 9th level. In your line of thinking it doesn't say they add on top of one other ether. Clearly in order to be 5 levels higher for damage you would have to add those 5 levels to you class levels to decide what the damage is. Powerful build: The physical Stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trips attempts), the goliath is treated as one size large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks beside on size (such as improved grapple or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjects size category. As you can see it in fact DOES NOT SAY than you are. It is understood to be refering to your actual size. Now monkey grip does say that. But Does the Monkey Grip feat stack with the Powerful Build racial ability so a character/creature can wield a weapon two size categories larger? Answer Since both abilities look back at your actual size, Monkey Grip and Powerful Build are redundant and do not stack. They both give you the ability to wield a weapon one size category larger than yourself, but neither actually increases your size. For additional clarification on Monkey Grip and Powerful Build, check out the 3.5 FAQ. Says both refer to your actual size. The monk belt and feat don't stack. Sorry
weasel0 02-24-08, 05:23 PM	*snip*of a creature of his actual size.*snip* Did you seriously not read what you quoted? In this case, those of us who feel that they do stack, are possibly veiwing it in light of castors have their effective castor level and an actual castor level. The feat and monk's belt(from my POV), increase the effective monk level just like any multiple feats and spell effets would increase an effective castor level without actually changeing the castor's actual level. And those do stack. And as it's been pointed out before, the feat is actually a handicap by lv 16, the belt begins to lose potency at 15 and if stacked, the effectiveness would begin to be lost at level 11 as there is no Monk unarmed progression past 20. Monks feel like they should be fighters(but lack HP). They have HP like clerics(who have platemail). There's generally less AC than rogues but they lack the casting prowess that affords arcanists the protection of the back row. So the monk would be doing some real damage at lower levels. Big deal. At your standard game most people won't touch the class due to low AC, mediocre hit points or small damage output, or a combination of all the above, and more. They could use a bit of a pick-me-up.
Ace_of_time 02-24-08, 10:12 PM	Did you seriously not read what you quoted? In this case, those of us who feel that they do stack, are possibly veiwing it in light of castors have their effective castor level and an actual castor level. The feat and monk's belt(from my POV), increase the effective monk level just like any multiple feats and spell effets would increase an effective castor level without actually changeing the castor's actual level. And those do stack. And as it's been pointed out before, the feat is actually a handicap by lv 16, the belt begins to lose potency at 15 and if stacked, the effectiveness would begin to be lost at level 11 as there is no Monk unarmed progression past 20. Monks feel like they should be fighters(but lack HP). They have HP like clerics(who have platemail). There's generally less AC than rogues but they lack the casting prowess that affords arcanists the protection of the back row. So the monk would be doing some real damage at lower levels. Big deal. At your standard game most people won't touch the class due to low AC, mediocre hit points or small damage output, or a combination of all the above, and more. They could use a bit of a pick-me-up.It says "However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size." That has nothing to do with the features of that ability. It only telling you that although he is considered large for those things he/she is NOT a large creature. So what your saying is that a DM should allow it just for monks because they are weaker then the other classes.:noway: :noway: :noway: :noway: You should NEVER ever give any abilities to any class/ player/PC just because they are weaker. The whole point of the weaker classes is to overcome those weaknesses. It boils down to this. They are looking for a way to get max damage for monk with out going through all the levels. As I have stated above there are a number of ways to do that with out wasting a feat. They should be looking at items and abilities that fit the PC profile not how to mini-max it for the best abilities.
weasel0 02-24-08, 10:57 PM	The whole point of weaker classes is flavor and niche rolls. However, when many groups are playing math games(or there just happen to be more math players than role players as is in my group), why NOT give these classes the benefit of unclear rules? Every class should have it's strong point. If it's always being overshadowed or the only way to break even is to min-max in one area, it needs alittle help. It's stll a game to have fun with, and lets be honest, is it fun to never be a key person in the plans or plot, only having a part, never the part. (either way, I'd never take that feat. As I stated, sooner or later it winds up being a waste feat.)
Krusk 02-24-08, 11:43 PM	Like i said, in my games not only do i allow them to stack, but i allow if your unarmed damage increases past monk 20 it increases another size. If wearing the belt and you take the feat you can improve it past 20 two sizes. Never been game breaking. But in reading the rules as printed they do not stack, regardless of what the intention was.
Ace_of_time 02-24-08, 11:45 PM	Isn't it the DM's job to make sure every player has a chance to be in the spot light. Your saying the monk class is so weak the DM feels the need not to throw some stories their way?:confused: :confused: Yeah guys/girls lets help the poor gimped class since it is to weak to be a PC class. :rolleyes: Yeah might as well move it to NPC class and be done with it. :rolleyes: It is up to the player to make the PC. And it is up to the DM to provide the right challenge for the group. Why should he throw a bone to just one class?
deathbane 02-26-08, 12:42 AM	I've emailed customer service, hopefully we can get it cleared up. but however, I see no reason they would not stack. It honestly looks exactly like unamed bonuses, and similar to caster level boost feats and abilities. For the seem reason that monkey grip and powerful build dont stack. They both give virtual increases without affecting the characters actual level. Virtual increases(when they include as if, or as though) don't stack because they both refer to the original condition.
Sunic_Flames 02-26-08, 10:09 AM	Isn't it the DM's job to make sure every player has a chance to be in the spot light. Your saying the monk class is so weak the DM feels the need not to throw some stories their way?:confused: :confused: Yeah guys/girls lets help the poor gimped class since it is to weak to be a PC class. :rolleyes: Yeah might as well move it to NPC class and be done with it. :rolleyes: It is up to the player to make the PC. And it is up to the DM to provide the right challenge for the group. Why should he throw a bone to just one class? Yes, they are that bad. Just like Fighters, CW Samurai, Healer... Probably should make an unarmed strike Swordsage and be done with it, but hey. :P
Ace_of_time 02-26-08, 07:45 PM	Why does every one say healer is bad/weak? Something wrong with a bandaid? You can't beat the healing powers they get.
deathbane 02-26-08, 08:19 PM	Why does every one say healer is bad/weak? Something wrong with a bandaid? You can't beat the healing powers they get. They can't wear heavier than light armor without restrictions. They have to use two attributes to cast spells, and that gimps them on offense and defense. If they make the third attribute strength they their AC will suffer since they won't be able to have a good dex to AC, and if they wear heavier than light armor they can no longer cast spells. If they go with Dex their AC goes up but it is still low since they can't use a shield for the same reason they can't use heavier than light armor, and if they boost dex instead of str they will find it hard to hit the opponents AC. They could take weapon finesse, but that is a feat slot that should be used to augment their healing, not try to give them an edge in combat since they were obviously built to stay as far away as possible, but for a character who will most likely be in the middle of the combat in some shape or from it was poorly designed. If I take someone down, and you bring them back up you have just become my next target, and unlike the cleric there is not much the healer can do if I make him a target. P.S. You can't keep me alive if you can't keep yourself alive.
deathbane 02-26-08, 08:25 PM	Yes, they are that bad. Just like Fighters, CW Samurai, Healer... Probably should make an unarmed strike Swordsage and be done with it, but hey. :P Monks are not as bad as everyone thinks they are. I will admit you will need a couple of splat books to juice them up, but they may be the best 5th member you can get. The sunder build monk can make a fighter wish he had stayed home, and with a few more feats it will affect casters also. Their saves protect them from a lot of spells, and they eventually get SR. Their high spot, and listen will stop ambushes unless the enemy is invisible, but that is what casters or for. Then again since monks don't spend a lot of money on weapons, and armor they could probably buy an item(s) that takes care of magical espionage also.
Ace_of_time 02-26-08, 11:00 PM	They can't wear heavier than light armor without restrictions. They have to use two attributes to cast spells, and that gimps them on offense and defense. If they make the third attribute strength they their AC will suffer since they won't be able to have a good dex to AC, and if they wear heavier than light armor they can no longer cast spells. If they go with Dex their AC goes up but it is still low since they can't use a shield for the same reason they can't use heavier than light armor, and if they boost dex instead of str they will find it hard to hit the opponents AC. They could take weapon finesse, but that is a feat slot that should be used to augment their healing, not try to give them an edge in combat since they were obviously built to stay as far away as possible, but for a character who will most likely be in the middle of the combat in some shape or from it was poorly designed. If I take someone down, and you bring them back up you have just become my next target, and unlike the cleric there is not much the healer can do if I make him a target. P.S. You can't keep me alive if you can't keep yourself alive. 1. The are limited to not wearing metal armor and no shields. They can wear med and heavy armor all they want. Just no metal. Darkleaf breastplate contains no metal, is light armor, and give +5 bonus with only a +4 max dex. They have plenty of armor choices with options these days. 2. Their spells only works off wis ability and no other ability. They class feature healing hands adds chr bonus to healling of damage. It has nothing to do with spells casting ability. 3. Dex is really a better choice for healers since most would be better to stay ranged. Str is a good one to since they CAN use heavy and med non metal armor (after getting the ability to use it ether through feats or through multi class. That way they can go two handed. Longspear is my fav choice. But if they get into trouble. Sanctuary Abjuration Level: Clr 1, Protection 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: No Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act. Now the best thing would be to go wis and dex and use magic items for cha ups. After 8th level no one is going to want to get close to them but will have to take the healer out first to win. Not going to happen. Sorry alittle off topic. Nothing wrong with not have a combat PC. PS: You could go 2 levels in fighter for combat feats. My fav build is catfolk 2fighter/17healer. Shouldn't have any problem about AC or ranged attack or deciding on str or dex when rolling/buy abilities. But to each his own.
deathbane 02-26-08, 11:18 PM	Charisma determines the saves of the spells I did misread the armor thing. They can wear heavy nonmetal armor A level one spell is not going to be hard to bypass bcos the save DC will be low. At higher levels most spells that require a will save or the effect will be devastating, but they are also all or nothing. At that point I use spells that don't need a save because due to the large amount of HD the will saves are normally high enough to only need a single digit roll and still make the save. taking the healer out is not that hard. unless he goes through the trouble of doing the DMM persist thing that clerics can do. I am sure there is a way to do it, but greater dispel magic can end that nonsense on round one. P.S.i would rather do this over PM so as to not hi-jack the thread
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 01:43 PM	If the monk from the OP wants more damage, should look at Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) and Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon).
Urithair 02-27-08, 02:25 PM	According to RAW unnamed bonuses from different sources stack unless otherwise noted. The logic isn't that hard to figure out. IF unamed AND different source THEN stacks UNLESS noted So why is everyone using the 'keen and improved critical' as an example for why the monks belt/SUS combo doesn't work? By definition it is an unamed bonus that doesn't stack because it specifically says it does not. Same thing with a Speed weapon and Haste, they don't stack because it says they don't. Logically the monks belt and SUS must stack because it does not say otherwise.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 02:32 PM	Logically they both modify the same value. So you would have monk lvl +4 and monk lvl +5, which one do you want?
Urithair 02-27-08, 02:59 PM	Given the logic i stated your statement is illogical. Of course they modify the same value, hence the stack vs overlap debate going on here. If they did not modify the same value there would be no argument. After all, how many times do you see 'Do gloves of dex and a belt of str stack?" get posted? What is your logic exactly, because it clearly is not the one I stated, which I believe to be the one that is found in RAW. The bonus to effective Monk level is unnamed, if it was a named bonus like enchancement/luck/competence/bunny then you would be correct, but since the bonus is unnamed it stacks.
deathbane 02-27-08, 04:19 PM	Given the logic i stated your statement is illogical. Of course they modify the same value, hence the stack vs overlap debate going on here. If they did not modify the same value there would be no argument. After all, how many times do you see 'Do gloves of dex and a belt of str stack?" get posted? What is your logic exactly, because it clearly is not the one I stated, which I believe to be the one that is found in RAW. The bonus to effective Monk level is unnamed, if it was a named bonus like enchancement/luck/competence/bunny then you would be correct, but since the bonus is unnamed it stacks. It stacks for the same reason that monkey grip and powerful build don't stack. They both give virtual increases, to the same thing(size/monk class). Now if one of them said he is effectively a monk of X levels higher for all intents and purposes, and the other said as if OR as though then you would be combining a real increase with a virtual one just as if you were combining monkey grip and righteous might or some other spell/effect that increases the character's actual size. Now what is the ideological difference between what I said, and the reason behind powerful build, and monkey grip not stacking? You can't say it is just because WoTC said so like the case of improved crit and keen, because my example actually has a reason.
eamon 02-27-08, 04:40 PM	It stacks for the same reason that monkey grip and powerful build don't stack. They both give virtual increases, to the same thing(size/monk class). Monkey grip does not give a virtual size increase; it allows you to wield a weapon made for creatures one step larger than you. Powerful build works similarly. They both provide the same effect - and there is no question of stacking or overlapping - it's not a bonus - but the two effects are no less redundant than a naturally invisible pixie under the influence of a greater invisibility effect. The monk's belt and superior unarmed strike work differently, however. Your unarmed strike is treated as five levels higher by the belt, and it is treated as four levels higher by the superior unarmed strike feat. Do these "level" increases overlap or stack? Consider other level increases, which, in general, can stack (unless they come from the same source). If my monk level is N, then my unarmed strike's damage is treated as that of a monk of level N. If I have the feat superior unarmed strike, it is treated as that of a monk four levels higher. What's four levels higher? N+4. If I then don a monk's belt, it is treated as five levels higher. What's five levels higher? N+9. Notably, there are many other feats and items in similar vein, an all of them stack (barring the same source or same named bonus limitation, of course) A multiclassed cleric with four levels of fighter and the practiced spellcaster feat is treated as a caster four levels higher. If he also uses an item (such as karma beads), he may be treated even higher - and that's despite the fact that practiced spellcaster even limits its bonus to never raise the caster's level above his character level, since when in doubt, you may choose in which order to raise the level. Now, a monk's unarmed strike doesn't have a "real" mechanical level. However, D&D is full of things "treated as if" they were different for mechanical purposes, and the unarmed damage here is no different - mechanically, it has an effective monk level, and mechanically, you can raise it, and mechanically, multiple different source don't overlap but stack: The belt and feat stack.
Urithair 02-27-08, 04:58 PM	A direct comparison of monkey/powerful and monkbelt/sus doesn't work because there are additional rules regulating size changes that have no counterpart with effective monk levels. A better comparison is '+1 caster level' effects. Now what is the ideological difference between what I said, and the reason behind powerful build, and monkey grip not stacking? You can't say it is just because WoTC said so like the case of improved crit and keen, because my example actually has a reason. What, are you asking a philosophical question here? This entire discussion is based on a RULESET whose entire existence is dependent on 'because WotC said so'. You might as well ask "Why is cocaine illegal, but don't tell me that its because the US Govt said so." or "Prove 2+2=4, but don't use the commonly accepted system of mathematics upon which the very concepts of addition are based" The fact that you deny "because WotC said so" doesn't mean it isn't the reason for it being that way, any more than denying that the sunshine is caused by the sun would have any effect on the physics of light.
deathbane 02-27-08, 09:46 PM	A direct comparison of monkey/powerful and monkbelt/sus doesn't work because there are additional rules regulating size changes that have no counterpart with effective monk levels. A better comparison is '+1 caster level' effects. What, are you asking a philosophical question here? This entire discussion is based on a RULESET whose entire existence is dependent on 'because WotC said so'. You might as well ask "Why is cocaine illegal, but don't tell me that its because the US Govt said so." or "Prove 2+2=4, but don't use the commonly accepted system of mathematics upon which the very concepts of addition are based" The fact that you deny "because WotC said so" doesn't mean it isn't the reason for it being that way, any more than denying that the sunshine is caused by the sun would have any effect on the physics of light. When I say WotC says so means without in-game logic. Keen and improved crit are based on fighter skill or magic depending on which one you use so by in-game logic they should stack, but it could lead to a very broken character so WotC said they don't that is what I mean by becuase WoTC said so. Monkey Grip and Powerful Build on the other hand have the same affect and and in-game reason is even provided so becuase WotC says so does not apply in the sense that it is just because they make the rules, and the ideologically is that when both situations reference the original source size or level and therefore overlap, but don't stack. If either one gave you effective monk levels the same way casters get effective caster levels you might have a leg to stand on since effective caster levels are treated as real caster levels for certain things, but in the case of the monk's belt, and the feat you are still treated as a level X monk. When the errata says you are ____ levels higher for purposes of determining unarmed damaged, then they will stack, but there is nothing to even insinuate your monk level is increased in any way, and since that is the only thing the belt or feat cares about is monk levels, they overlap.
deathbane 02-27-08, 09:55 PM	Monkey grip does not give a virtual size increase; it allows you to wield a weapon made for creatures one step larger than you. Powerful build works similarly. They both provide the same effect - and there is no question of stacking or overlapping - it's not a bonus - but the two effects are no less redundant than a naturally invisible pixie under the influence of a greater invisibility effect. The monk's belt and superior unarmed strike work differently, however. Your unarmed strike is treated as five levels higher by the belt, and it is treated as four levels higher by the superior unarmed strike feat. Do these "level" increases overlap or stack? Consider other level increases, which, in general, can stack (unless they come from the same source). If my monk level is N, then my unarmed strike's damage is treated as that of a monk of level N. If I have the feat superior unarmed strike, it is treated as that of a monk four levels higher. What's four levels higher? N+4. If I then don a monk's belt, it is treated as five levels higher. What's five levels higher? N+9. Notably, there are many other feats and items in similar vein, an all of them stack (barring the same source or same named bonus limitation, of course) A multiclassed cleric with four levels of fighter and the practiced spellcaster feat is treated as a caster four levels higher. If he also uses an item (such as karma beads), he may be treated even higher - and that's despite the fact that practiced spellcaster even limits its bonus to never raise the caster's level above his character level, since when in doubt, you may choose in which order to raise the level. Now, a monk's unarmed strike doesn't have a "real" mechanical level. However, D&D is full of things "treated as if" they were different for mechanical purposes, and the unarmed damage here is no different - mechanically, it has an effective monk level, and mechanically, you can raise it, and mechanically, multiple different source don't overlap but stack: The belt and feat stack. Powerful build and monkey grip allow you to wield a size catergory larger weapon based on your size in a way that you could not otherwise true or false? It does not say anywhere in the book that you unarmed strike is treated as a monk of four levels higher. If it said your unarmed strike goes up by a certain degree of steps from where it currently deals damage even that would be acceptable. You can say that was the intent, but I am not here to argue RAI. RAW says you deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher. The monk's belt says you are treated as a monk of five levels higher for determining the unarmed damaged. Both reference the monk's level not his current unarmed strike damage. Maybe the intent was for them to stack, but as it is written to reference the monk's level, and not his current unarmed strike damage it does not stack.
Ace_of_time 02-28-08, 07:23 AM	It is monk's flurry and TWF all over again. WotC says alot of things thatr boogles the minds. They however are not all knowing. The point here as with the above example is that the feats may lead one to believe it adds on to the reg monk class levels it doesn't actually say so. And since it doesn't actually say that, you can stack them unless the DM says no. HORSE CRAP! It's commonsense that they don't stack. They are clearly talking about YOUR monk class levels. Why should it have to come right out and say it unless you have 14 lawyers play the game trying to find every loop hole they can.:rant: :rant: :rant:
eamon 02-28-08, 06:45 PM	Powerful build and monkey grip allow you to wield a size catergory larger weapon based on your size in a way that you could not otherwise true or false? I don't quite understand the details of what you're asking - This isn't relevant to the current discussion. How monkey grip and powerful build are limited is due to their phrasing, which is not similar to that of the monks. It does not say anywhere in the book that you unarmed strike is treated as a monk of four levels higher. The abilities literally say: "unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher" and "deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher". And on RAI vs. RAW: The point is the semantic content of what the rules say, and not the syntax of which letters they happened to use. We're ultimately trying to determing the meaning of the rules. The monk's belt says you are treated as a monk of five levels higher for determining the unarmed damaged. Both reference the monk's level not his current unarmed strike damage. Maybe the intent was for them to stack, but as it is written to reference the monk's level, and not his current unarmed strike damage it does not stack. If a PrC granted you advancement in the monk's unarmed strike, would those levels be counted? Clearly, certain effects can improve your current level for certain purposes. A monk wearing a monk's belt may be 11th level, but for the purposes of determining unarmed damage and AC bonus, he's 16th. His character level and HD aren't higher for the purposes of adjudicating effects, but his unarmed damage is higher. Neither belt nor feat explicitely refer to any base value. They might mean the number of hairs in your left nostril - it's better left unsaid, though. You're just treated as a monk of X levels higher read [for the purposes of unarmed strike damage]. A little bit of an aside: You cannot use the rules without interpreting the text - it's just not possible. Since the rules don't give an explicit base value, it's instructive to notice how everyone thinks about it - even the people arguing it should overlap, not stack - everyone refers to the unarmed damage "of a certain monk level"! That is, internally, implicitely, there is no doubt that everyone thinks of the unarmed strike as being pegged to a certain level and being able to be pushed around, as opposed to the mental model which would suggest that you merely have a monk level, and simple [i]set[i] the unarmed damage based on that. So, given the implicit mental model you're already using, when interpreting the implicit "higher than otherwise" consider that the "than otherwise" should make sense in the current context. If everything speaks of your effective monk level for unarmed damage purposes, then that's the context that makes sense, and not any absolute value.
deathbane 02-28-08, 08:55 PM	The abilities literally say: "unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher" and "deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher". exactly my point, if your monk level is 5 then it goes to 9 or 10, not 14, since the levels higher is referring to your actual level. And on RAI vs. RAW: The point is the semantic content of what the rules say, and not the syntax of which letters they happened to use. We're ultimately trying to determing the meaning of the rules. This thread has been done several times, and I asked WotC(good luck with that) to be kind enough to make an official decision. I see it as referencing the monk's actual level, and others see it the same way as effective caster levels. If a PrC granted you advancement in the monk's unarmed strike, would those levels be counted? Clearly, certain effects can improve your current level for certain purposes. A monk wearing a monk's belt may be 11th level, but for the purposes of determining unarmed damage and AC bonus, he's 16th. His character level and HD aren't higher for the purposes of adjudicating effects, but his unarmed damage is higher. Many monk PrC's specifically state that certain monk abilities are to be increased in that manner, but neither the feat nor the item says that. Neither belt nor feat explicitely refer to any base value. They might mean the number of hairs in your left nostril - it's better left unsaid, though. You're just treated as a monk of X levels higher read [for the purposes of unarmed strike damage]. They both say as a monk five levels higher. If they are not referencing your monk level then what else could they be referencing? A little bit of an aside: If everything speaks of your effective monk level for unarmed damage purposes, then that's the context that makes sense, and not any absolute value. Your effective monk level is not increased. Effective monk level is never mentioned. That is an interpretation. The only thing referred to is your monk level which is X. If they wanted it to stack they would have said you are now 5 levels higher for purposes of unarmed strike damage. You do get the damage of a higher level monk, but not any level increase real or otherwise. If they errata it to say you are 5 levels higher for purposes of unarmed strike damage which is easy for them to do then it would work. You can say the level increase is implied, but that goes back to RAI vs RAW
Douglasm 02-29-08, 06:40 PM	exactly my point, if your monk level is 5 then it goes to 9 or 10, not 14, since the levels higher is referring to your actual level. Where does it say that? I've read both the item and feat descriptions many times, and I have never noticed any direct mention of your actual monk level. This thread has been done several times, and I asked WotC(good luck with that) to be kind enough to make an official decision. I see it as referencing the monk's actual level, and others see it the same way as effective caster levels. There's a WotC reply posted in the first page of this thread that confirms the effective caster levels interpretation. They both say as a monk five levels higher. If they are not referencing your monk level then what else could they be referencing? Your effective monk level for unarmed strike damage? Neither the Monk's Belt nor Superior Unarmed Strike state which of your actual and effective levels they refer to. Your effective monk level is not increased. Effective monk level is never mentioned. That is an interpretation. The only thing referred to is your monk level which is X. If they wanted it to stack they would have said you are now 5 levels higher for purposes of unarmed strike damage. "Monk level" is never mentioned either and is also an interpretation.
deathbane 03-02-08, 07:02 PM	Where does it say that? I've read both the item and feat descriptions many times, and I have never noticed any direct mention of your actual monk level. It say as x higher than your monk level when referring to the unarmed strike, but it does not say you are actually X levels higher, only that you strike as one, but both still refer to your actual level. Monk level is in the description Straight from the SRD Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. The Superior unarmed strike has pretty much the same wording. There's a WotC reply posted in the first page of this thread that confirms the effective caster levels interpretation. What post number is that? I did not see it, and they still did not reply to my question yet. "Monk level" is never mentioned either and is also an interpretation. Look at the top of this post After edit: I found the customer service thing, still not accepting it, but won't argue the point until I get another official answer.
Douglasm 03-02-08, 10:15 PM	It say as x higher than your monk level when referring to the unarmed strike, but it does not say you are actually X levels higher, only that you strike as one, but both still refer to your actual level. Monk level is in the description Really? I'm not seeing it. The second thing you bolded is not relevant because the character is a monk. For the first, five levels higher than what? It doesn't say.
deathbane 03-02-08, 10:31 PM	Really? I'm not seeing it. The second thing you bolded is not relevant because the character is a monk. For the first, five levels higher than what? It doesn't say. You knew I meant higher than a monk, however if you want me to spell everything out I will, but I don't want any complaints about how I am insulting your intelligence when I start explaining simple things to you on this or any other issue. I should not have highlighted the second monk level, but that does not take away from the fact that you did not notice the first highlight
Douglasm 03-02-08, 10:45 PM	I know what you meant, I'm asking what the item description meant. It says "as a Monk of five levels higher". It does not say "as a Monk of five levels higher than your actual Monk level". You assume that's what it means, but it doesn't actually say that.
eamon 03-03-08, 04:07 AM	Frankly, even if you think the feat/item raise you "actual" monk level, there's no reason to think that these level increases don't stack.
deathbane 03-03-08, 03:24 PM	I know what you meant, I'm asking what the item description meant. It says "as a Monk of five levels higher". It does not say "as a Monk of five levels higher than your actual Monk level". You assume that's what it means, but it doesn't actually say that. Normally as, as if, as though, etc...., imply that something is being imitated(could not think of better word). If the monk level gain is only being imitated then it is not actually taking place, and you don't really gain monk levels for any purpose you just get benefits of a certain level before you would otherwise get them Another post or link will be coming shortly since I asked WoTC what is the reason behind rulings such as this one when it increases bonus could be perceived as actual increases or not actual increases in case this situation comes up again.
Douglasm 03-03-08, 05:44 PM	Right, but I don't see where the distinction between actual and imitation Monk levels matters. You are a Monk level N. You take Superior Unarmed Strike. You have unarmed damage as a Monk of 4 levels higher, or level N+4. You put on a Monk's Belt. You now have unarmed damage as a Monk of 5 levels higher. It is a perfectly valid interpretation to say that it means 5 levels higher than without the Monk's Belt, in which case you have unarmed damage as a Monk of 5 levels higher than N+4, giving a final unarmed damage as a Monk of level N+9.