Undead graft? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead graft? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Radijs
01-22-08, 01:44 PM One of my players has bought himself an undead graft.
The weakening arm from Libris mortis page 80.

It allows the user to use a weakening touch twice per day.
Now as I see it using the touch is a standard action but the player argues that it can be done with the attack action, and therefore allowing iterative weakening touches.

Does anyone know the definitive awnser on this?
Sinis
01-22-08, 04:01 PM It's a standard action. From the SRD:

To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

Emphasis mine. Libris Mortis specifically says that Grafts aren't magic items, "but in game terms they very much function like magic items." I would treat it as a wondrous item that happens to be attached to the owner, and as such, since the description of the graft is lacking, I would say it is a standard action.
Radijs
01-22-08, 07:32 PM Thanks. I knew I was right but all these references tend to escape me most of the time.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto
02-09-08, 07:02 PM the way i understood it was that it was up to DM discretion. My 20th lvl monk has 3 undead grafts. the enervating arm, paralyzing arm, and bonemail. My DM suggested i use venerate and paralyze when i attack without flurry of blows. I don't feel it's worth it with such a low save. Unless you can sneak attack.
Radijs
02-09-08, 08:22 PM Rule 0 says that everything's up to the DM in the end.

But the rules themselves say standard action.
Crebain
02-09-08, 08:41 PM Sorry to bother you but I had never heard of an undead graft but I thougt you meant something like grafting weapons onto an undead, not grafting an undead part onto a person. How awesome would that be though.
Nathreet
02-09-08, 08:56 PM A touch attack, including a touch attack from a spell, is typically an attack action. Saying that is "like a magic item" and that magic items take a standard action to activate just seems fishy to me. But you're the DM and you can disallow anything, especially if it's broken.
Sinis
02-09-08, 09:09 PM A touch attack, including a touch attack from a spell, is typically an attack action. Saying that is "like a magic item" and that magic items take a standard action to activate just seems fishy to me. But you're the DM and you can disallow anything, especially if it's broken.

It specifically reads, "Twice per day, the grafted creature can use a weakening touch." (Libris Mortis, page 80).

It doesn't ever use the word "attack". There's little reason to think why you could use it as one of your attacks during a full attack.

Edit: Consider the Lich's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) touch attack. It uses the very wording involving attack actions, and yet is usable only once per round.
Marcus Majarra
02-11-08, 09:05 PM Sinis is correct. Touch is merely the mechanism through which the effect is delivered. The kind of action used and the mechanism used are two separate things.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto
02-16-08, 10:14 AM i asked my dm again. to use weakening touch or enervating touch replaces your standard attack. in example: as a 20 level monk my standard attack is 3 attacks, but if i use either of the affor mentioned actions it is a single attack in lou of 3.but i nver use them because the saves are so damn low it is a waste of a turn for me.
Sinis
02-16-08, 10:33 AM i asked my dm again. to use weakening touch or enervating touch replaces your standard attack. in example: as a 20 level monk my standard attack is 3 attacks, but if i use either of the affor mentioned actions it is a single attack in lou of 3.but i nver use them because the saves are so damn low it is a waste of a turn for me.

So? Using these touch attacks is a standard action. That makes some of them bad.

It's sort of like a 20th level wizard holding a Wand of Magic Missile (Caster Level 1). Is he going to spend his action being devastating, or is he going to do 1d4+1 damage to a single target?

Besides, most of those grafts also give a +4 inherent bonus to strength, which is pretty awesome.

Edit: Paralyzing touch is the only one that has a relevant weak save. Enervating arm gives them negative levels, which last for 24 hours and then you get the save to see if they cause level loss (after 24 hours, they're probably dead, making it moot). Weakening touch allows no save.
Andrew
02-16-08, 04:44 PM I believe it should default to the rules on spell-like and supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities) when the action is not otherwise specified.

For supernatural abilities, using them is a standard action unless otherwise noted. If the character has a natural attack or improved unarmed strike they can use with the limb, it would seem appropriate to let them make a normal (instead of touch) attack that would combine the effects of the attack and the weakening touch.

As for if this is in line with the price? The arm is money in the bank without the ability. The arm grants a +4 inherent bonus to Strength, does not specify that the bonus only applies to actions with that arm, and costs a third of what a Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 costs for the same bonus.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto
02-16-08, 06:00 PM yeah the +4 to strength was the only reason i got the undead grafts to begin with. i could actually care less about the other effets they have, unless i decide to kill a random villager or some crap.
Sinis
02-17-08, 11:38 AM I believe it should default to the rules on spell-like and supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities) when the action is not otherwise specified.

For supernatural abilities, using them is a standard action unless otherwise noted. If the character has a natural attack or improved unarmed strike they can use with the limb, it would seem appropriate to let them make a normal (instead of touch) attack that would combine the effects of the attack and the weakening touch.

What leads you to believe it's a supernatural or spell-like ability?
Andrew
02-17-08, 12:12 PM What leads you to believe it's a supernatural or spell-like ability?
It might be that all the powers of undead that it might be duplicating are supernatural (exception for the paralyzing arm), or perhaps it's that the Pale Master prestige class, which the Grafts section calls out as gaining improved versions of the grafts, calls it out as a supernatural ability, but probably because it's an unholy blasphemous construct stitched to a depraved still-living creature, drawing upon the vile powers of dark magic to allow the bearer to destroy life with but a touch.
Sinis
02-19-08, 03:11 PM It might be that all the powers of undead that it might be duplicating are supernatural (exception for the paralyzing arm), or perhaps it's that the Pale Master prestige class, which the Grafts section calls out as gaining improved versions of the grafts, calls it out as a supernatural ability, but probably because it's an unholy blasphemous construct stitched to a depraved still-living creature, drawing upon the vile powers of dark magic to allow the bearer to destroy life with but a touch.

I suppose that's a fair assessment. I feel that you would be right from a flavour standpoint, but that my position is pretty valid from a mechanical one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radijs 01-22-08, 01:44 PM	One of my players has bought himself an undead graft. The weakening arm from Libris mortis page 80. It allows the user to use a weakening touch twice per day. Now as I see it using the touch is a standard action but the player argues that it can be done with the attack action, and therefore allowing iterative weakening touches. Does anyone know the definitive awnser on this?
Sinis 01-22-08, 04:01 PM	It's a standard action. From the SRD: To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity. Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise. Emphasis mine. Libris Mortis specifically says that Grafts aren't magic items, "but in game terms they very much function like magic items." I would treat it as a wondrous item that happens to be attached to the owner, and as such, since the description of the graft is lacking, I would say it is a standard action.
Radijs 01-22-08, 07:32 PM	Thanks. I knew I was right but all these references tend to escape me most of the time.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto 02-09-08, 07:02 PM	the way i understood it was that it was up to DM discretion. My 20th lvl monk has 3 undead grafts. the enervating arm, paralyzing arm, and bonemail. My DM suggested i use venerate and paralyze when i attack without flurry of blows. I don't feel it's worth it with such a low save. Unless you can sneak attack.
Radijs 02-09-08, 08:22 PM	Rule 0 says that everything's up to the DM in the end. But the rules themselves say standard action.
Crebain 02-09-08, 08:41 PM	Sorry to bother you but I had never heard of an undead graft but I thougt you meant something like grafting weapons onto an undead, not grafting an undead part onto a person. How awesome would that be though.
Nathreet 02-09-08, 08:56 PM	A touch attack, including a touch attack from a spell, is typically an attack action. Saying that is "like a magic item" and that magic items take a standard action to activate just seems fishy to me. But you're the DM and you can disallow anything, especially if it's broken.
Sinis 02-09-08, 09:09 PM	A touch attack, including a touch attack from a spell, is typically an attack action. Saying that is "like a magic item" and that magic items take a standard action to activate just seems fishy to me. But you're the DM and you can disallow anything, especially if it's broken. It specifically reads, "Twice per day, the grafted creature can use a weakening touch." (Libris Mortis, page 80). It doesn't ever use the word "attack". There's little reason to think why you could use it as one of your attacks during a full attack. Edit: Consider the Lich's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) touch attack. It uses the very wording involving attack actions, and yet is usable only once per round.
Marcus Majarra 02-11-08, 09:05 PM	Sinis is correct. Touch is merely the mechanism through which the effect is delivered. The kind of action used and the mechanism used are two separate things.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto 02-16-08, 10:14 AM	i asked my dm again. to use weakening touch or enervating touch replaces your standard attack. in example: as a 20 level monk my standard attack is 3 attacks, but if i use either of the affor mentioned actions it is a single attack in lou of 3.but i nver use them because the saves are so damn low it is a waste of a turn for me.
Sinis 02-16-08, 10:33 AM	i asked my dm again. to use weakening touch or enervating touch replaces your standard attack. in example: as a 20 level monk my standard attack is 3 attacks, but if i use either of the affor mentioned actions it is a single attack in lou of 3.but i nver use them because the saves are so damn low it is a waste of a turn for me. So? Using these touch attacks is a standard action. That makes some of them bad. It's sort of like a 20th level wizard holding a Wand of Magic Missile (Caster Level 1). Is he going to spend his action being devastating, or is he going to do 1d4+1 damage to a single target? Besides, most of those grafts also give a +4 inherent bonus to strength, which is pretty awesome. Edit: Paralyzing touch is the only one that has a relevant weak save. Enervating arm gives them negative levels, which last for 24 hours and then you get the save to see if they cause level loss (after 24 hours, they're probably dead, making it moot). Weakening touch allows no save.
Andrew 02-16-08, 04:44 PM	I believe it should default to the rules on spell-like and supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities) when the action is not otherwise specified. For supernatural abilities, using them is a standard action unless otherwise noted. If the character has a natural attack or improved unarmed strike they can use with the limb, it would seem appropriate to let them make a normal (instead of touch) attack that would combine the effects of the attack and the weakening touch. As for if this is in line with the price? The arm is money in the bank without the ability. The arm grants a +4 inherent bonus to Strength, does not specify that the bonus only applies to actions with that arm, and costs a third of what a Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 costs for the same bonus.
SpeedyClakClakClaxto 02-16-08, 06:00 PM	yeah the +4 to strength was the only reason i got the undead grafts to begin with. i could actually care less about the other effets they have, unless i decide to kill a random villager or some crap.
Sinis 02-17-08, 11:38 AM	I believe it should default to the rules on spell-like and supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities) when the action is not otherwise specified. For supernatural abilities, using them is a standard action unless otherwise noted. If the character has a natural attack or improved unarmed strike they can use with the limb, it would seem appropriate to let them make a normal (instead of touch) attack that would combine the effects of the attack and the weakening touch. What leads you to believe it's a supernatural or spell-like ability?
Andrew 02-17-08, 12:12 PM	What leads you to believe it's a supernatural or spell-like ability? It might be that all the powers of undead that it might be duplicating are supernatural (exception for the paralyzing arm), or perhaps it's that the Pale Master prestige class, which the Grafts section calls out as gaining improved versions of the grafts, calls it out as a supernatural ability, but probably because it's an unholy blasphemous construct stitched to a depraved still-living creature, drawing upon the vile powers of dark magic to allow the bearer to destroy life with but a touch.
Sinis 02-19-08, 03:11 PM	It might be that all the powers of undead that it might be duplicating are supernatural (exception for the paralyzing arm), or perhaps it's that the Pale Master prestige class, which the Grafts section calls out as gaining improved versions of the grafts, calls it out as a supernatural ability, but probably because it's an unholy blasphemous construct stitched to a depraved still-living creature, drawing upon the vile powers of dark magic to allow the bearer to destroy life with but a touch. I suppose that's a fair assessment. I feel that you would be right from a flavour standpoint, but that my position is pretty valid from a mechanical one.