Undead Spawn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead Spawn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zinger2099
12-23-07, 12:07 AM Can an undead created with Summon Undead/Animate Dead/Create Undead, or an Undead simply under your control by other means, create spawn if they have the ability?

If so, is the spawn under your control?

Also, what's the maximum HD you can control at any one time? Or does that depend on the source of control?
Zinger2099
12-23-07, 12:08 PM Can anyone answer this question?...

So for example, if a necromancer creates a shadow, which is under his control, and the shadow creates a spawn (which is under it's control), does he effectively have another shadow he can boss around that doesn't add to the total HD he can command?
Marcus Majarra
12-23-07, 12:52 PM Yes. Undead created through spells can create spawn, if they have the ability to do so. These spawn are not under your control and will probably seek to destroy you if you do not command their progenitor to have them spare you.
LeeAlucard
12-27-07, 08:20 PM One might not be in direct control of the undead, but one still holds the leash on that undead's master, yes? I would use a system similar to the way a vampire can "control" a potentially infinite amount of vampires, as is written in the Monster Manual.
mvincent
12-28-07, 01:10 PM One might not be in direct control of the undead, but one still holds the leash on that undead's master, yes? I would use a system similar to the way a vampire can "control" a potentially infinite amount of vampires, as is written in the Monster Manual.From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired):
"If a cleric commands a shadow, and that shadow then
spawns other shadows, is the cleric also in control of the
newly spawned shadows?
Strictly speaking, the cleric does not have “mental control”
over any shadows spawned by the one he commands (and so on
down the chain), since he didn’t use rebuke undead to
command them. He can indirectly control these undead by
issuing instructions to the one he does command, but if that
creature isn’t present, the cleric would have no influence over
the newly spawned shadows.
This trick shouldn’t allow a cleric to bypass the normal
limits for commanded undead. The Sage sees two reasonable
house rules for handling this situation:
1. Count these indirectly influenced undead toward the
cleric’s limit of HD commanded (PH 159); relinquishing
command of such a creature renders it no longer under control
of its creator.
2. Rule that newly created spawn aren’t under the control
of the commanded undead; they’re immediately free-willed."

Personally, I think this often becomes a self correcting problem without need for house rules. Eventually, some of the spawn won't have their spawner around to tell them not to attack the spawner's spawner. To mix metaphors: it only takes a single break in the chain to cause the house of cards to fall.
Sildatorak
12-30-07, 02:03 PM To mix metaphors: it only takes a single break in the chain to cause the house of cards to fall.

Checkmate.
Cifer
01-03-08, 08:19 PM The sage's workaround really isn't needed - the threat of one of the directly controlled undead dieing and releasing their spawn is usually great enough for the cleric to use their powers somewhat... sparingly, especially since such a rogue spawn could go on to liberate others by destroying their creators. If your one shadow sires about fifty others, you better pray nothing happens to him although he'll have to be with you to command the rest...

Also, what's the maximum HD you can control at any one time? Or does that depend on the source of control?
It does depend on the source of control.
You can control 4 HD of undead per caster level by means of Animate Dead and similar spells, unlimited numbers by the somewhat temporarily limited Summon spells and HD equal to your class level by rebuking/commanding them.

There are ways to circumvent most of these limits.
Andrew
01-04-08, 01:41 AM I must be missing something here. You create/command 1 Wight. You have it maul 50 townsfolk, creating spawn. You then command it to command them to obey you as they would obey it. You then give the wight a melon smoothie, tell it to take it easy, and have it chill out safely in your summer home indefinitely while you go adventuring with the backup band. You don't have special mind control over them, but they'd do what you tell them to do, because that's what they're commanded to do.
Toki_Wartooth
01-04-08, 11:53 AM I must be missing something here. You create/command 1 Wight. You have it maul 50 townsfolk, creating spawn. You then command it to command them to obey you as they would obey it. You then give the wight a melon smoothie, tell it to take it easy, and have it chill out safely in your summer home indefinitely while you go adventuring with the backup band. You don't have special mind control over them, but they'd do what you tell them to do, because that's what they're commanded to do.Sounds fooproof. You should try it.
1 ton ghost
01-05-08, 02:23 PM hate to be Devil's advocate here, but this sounds pretty blatant. and if it were allowable, there are too many things that can make it go wrong.
you know, enslaving creatures, especially evil ones that don't need to sleep, never tire and so forth might be a little resentful...

curious. is there a system for Diplomacy for intelligent undead? mutual gain and all that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zinger2099 12-23-07, 12:07 AM	Can an undead created with Summon Undead/Animate Dead/Create Undead, or an Undead simply under your control by other means, create spawn if they have the ability? If so, is the spawn under your control? Also, what's the maximum HD you can control at any one time? Or does that depend on the source of control?
Zinger2099 12-23-07, 12:08 PM	Can anyone answer this question?... So for example, if a necromancer creates a shadow, which is under his control, and the shadow creates a spawn (which is under it's control), does he effectively have another shadow he can boss around that doesn't add to the total HD he can command?
Marcus Majarra 12-23-07, 12:52 PM	Yes. Undead created through spells can create spawn, if they have the ability to do so. These spawn are not under your control and will probably seek to destroy you if you do not command their progenitor to have them spare you.
LeeAlucard 12-27-07, 08:20 PM	One might not be in direct control of the undead, but one still holds the leash on that undead's master, yes? I would use a system similar to the way a vampire can "control" a potentially infinite amount of vampires, as is written in the Monster Manual.
mvincent 12-28-07, 01:10 PM	One might not be in direct control of the undead, but one still holds the leash on that undead's master, yes? I would use a system similar to the way a vampire can "control" a potentially infinite amount of vampires, as is written in the Monster Manual.From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired): "If a cleric commands a shadow, and that shadow then spawns other shadows, is the cleric also in control of the newly spawned shadows? Strictly speaking, the cleric does not have “mental control” over any shadows spawned by the one he commands (and so on down the chain), since he didn’t use rebuke undead to command them. He can indirectly control these undead by issuing instructions to the one he does command, but if that creature isn’t present, the cleric would have no influence over the newly spawned shadows. This trick shouldn’t allow a cleric to bypass the normal limits for commanded undead. The Sage sees two reasonable house rules for handling this situation: 1. Count these indirectly influenced undead toward the cleric’s limit of HD commanded (PH 159); relinquishing command of such a creature renders it no longer under control of its creator. 2. Rule that newly created spawn aren’t under the control of the commanded undead; they’re immediately free-willed." Personally, I think this often becomes a self correcting problem without need for house rules. Eventually, some of the spawn won't have their spawner around to tell them not to attack the spawner's spawner. To mix metaphors: it only takes a single break in the chain to cause the house of cards to fall.
Sildatorak 12-30-07, 02:03 PM	To mix metaphors: it only takes a single break in the chain to cause the house of cards to fall. Checkmate.
Cifer 01-03-08, 08:19 PM	The sage's workaround really isn't needed - the threat of one of the directly controlled undead dieing and releasing their spawn is usually great enough for the cleric to use their powers somewhat... sparingly, especially since such a rogue spawn could go on to liberate others by destroying their creators. If your one shadow sires about fifty others, you better pray nothing happens to him although he'll have to be with you to command the rest... Also, what's the maximum HD you can control at any one time? Or does that depend on the source of control? It does depend on the source of control. You can control 4 HD of undead per caster level by means of Animate Dead and similar spells, unlimited numbers by the somewhat temporarily limited Summon spells and HD equal to your class level by rebuking/commanding them. There are ways to circumvent most of these limits.
Andrew 01-04-08, 01:41 AM	I must be missing something here. You create/command 1 Wight. You have it maul 50 townsfolk, creating spawn. You then command it to command them to obey you as they would obey it. You then give the wight a melon smoothie, tell it to take it easy, and have it chill out safely in your summer home indefinitely while you go adventuring with the backup band. You don't have special mind control over them, but they'd do what you tell them to do, because that's what they're commanded to do.
Toki_Wartooth 01-04-08, 11:53 AM	I must be missing something here. You create/command 1 Wight. You have it maul 50 townsfolk, creating spawn. You then command it to command them to obey you as they would obey it. You then give the wight a melon smoothie, tell it to take it easy, and have it chill out safely in your summer home indefinitely while you go adventuring with the backup band. You don't have special mind control over them, but they'd do what you tell them to do, because that's what they're commanded to do.Sounds fooproof. You should try it.
1 ton ghost 01-05-08, 02:23 PM	hate to be Devil's advocate here, but this sounds pretty blatant. and if it were allowable, there are too many things that can make it go wrong. you know, enslaving creatures, especially evil ones that don't need to sleep, never tire and so forth might be a little resentful... curious. is there a system for Diplomacy for intelligent undead? mutual gain and all that.