Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 01:37 AM	Posted this on "What's a DM to do", but didn't receive many responses (only one). I though this board might be more appropriate for it anyhow. Someone out there must be an expert on underwater combat! :) We just had a session involving, at one point, 'underwater' combat with a small water elemental. Characters: Human F Barbarian 2 w/ Wolf cohort (Wild Cohort feat) "Shade" Gnome F Druid 2 w/ Wolf animal companion Elan M Scout 1/Ranger 1 Elf (Gray) Wizard 2 I'll set up the area. Basically, the room itself is a flooded 'shower' area. A few walls, some columns, and spigots. The water is about 5 feet deep. There is a gnome in the party (definitely under 5 feet tall), a short elf whom I believe as under 5 as well, and the other two are 7 or so inches above it, so their heads, basically. Now, when we started doing this, two of them (the barbarian and the scout/ranger, the two that had the highest height, went swimming to look around. The water elemental got off a surprise slam against the barb, which it missed, then proceeded to vortex. As she was bigger than it, it didn't do much damage other than holding her under water. She was eventually yanked from it by one of the wolves commanded to swim to her and grab her. The elemental than went after the scout, whom it knocked to negatives. The gnome rode out on her swimming wolf to try and heal him, while the wizard swam out and smacked it with a few magic missiles. One cold attack later by the druid, and one successful cure on the scout, and the encounter was over. Here's the questions, of which there were many, that came up during the encounter. I probably looked rather unprofessional while running it, as the whole 'underwater' thing was a bit confusing. 1. Do characters that can 'reach' the bottom need to make swim checks (it was a DC 10 for calm water) to do their movement and such each round? 1/4 movement as move action, 1/2 as full-round? - I had them making swim checks every round even if they could touch the bottom, to represent even the ones that could poke their heads up as still having to 'walk' against the bottom slower than normal. 2. Is it feasible to Ride a wolf in a water environment? - I had the gnome make a DC 15 Ride check for her wolf (+5 DC for no saddle, +5 for being in a strange environment). Should it have been higher? Lower? It was pretty much a guessed DC. I had her wolf make normal swim checks as usual, which was fine until it failed one and she decided to swim by herself to heal the scout. 3. Attacks in water? - Most of the time, the characters were above what they were attacking, an underwater small elemental, but their weapons were 'underwater'. I didn't find the table mentioned on the SRD until after, and had ruled that anything but light weapons would be ineffective trying to wield them against the thing underwater, as I thought there would be too much resistance. Now that I see the table, it looks like it's only a -2 to hit, and half damage? Does that make sense? The barbarian was using a heavy flail, and I find it hard to believe she could get that much momentum (enough to do damage) swinging it underwater, but I could be wrong. 4. Spellcasting in the water? - I had anyone wanting to cast a spell while swimming make their swim check as usual to stay afloat (failure by 5 or more means going under) and a concentration check DC 10 + spell level to cast it. I didn't see anything in the DMG about casting in the water, other than the whole fire spell thing and making a spellcraft check to turn it into damaging 'steam'. What's the consensus on casting while trying to stay afloat? 5. How long does it take to drown if you're into negatives? - The drowning rules say that, when you start to drown or fail your first check, you go to 0 in the first round, negatives in the second, and death in the third. What if the character falls into negatives (as the scout did) and sinks underwater? Would he die the next round, being in negatives already? I don't see how someone unconscious can hold their breath. I gave him a couple rounds at least as it was, as I didn't know and wouldn't want to kill a character by guessing, but I'm not sure if I was right or not. 6. How about paralyzed? - There was an encounter with a ghoul later that left one of them paralyzed. Can they still hold their breath? The encounter mentioned it being a possibility, though the ghoul was killed and them rescued before it became an issue. However, I didn't think they could hold their breath and had started using the drowning rules until I noticed it afterwards. 7. What good is Vortex when it can't damage? - A character can hold their breath for twice their Con, -1 extra round if they try to do something like a standard action. Vortex says it only does damage to things equal to or smaller than the elemental, which none of them were, except the gnome. What good was it against the barbarian? She got her reflex save each round, and was eventually able to get out. Was there something I missed? 8. Can another character pull someone out of a vortex? - The druid commanded her wolf to 'fetch' the barbarian. I had her roll her swim for her wolf to get to her, and since it was just a move action (1/4 50 ft is still decent), had her roll a touch attack to 'grab' the barbarian. I also had her make a reflex to avoid being caught in the vortex herself (or her wolf's self, that is), which she passed. Next round, I gave her a strength check to beat the vortex's DC (which was only 13), and she passed, and I allowed her another swim to pull the barbarian 5 ft back, which she also passed. On the barb's turn, she made her reflex anyways, and swim, and was out of there. How should I have handled this? 9. Should those taller than 5 feet even needed swim checks, even though it was only some-all of their head sticking above the water? - The table mentioned above talks about being able to walk 'on firm ground'. Should it still have been a swim check? I don't see how they could have got their normal move, but would it have just been an auto reduction, no check needed? 10. If a character fails their swim check, they go underwater. Is this really a big deal? Can't they just use a swim check next round to start moving (if they succeed) and put their head back up as they swim? - shrug. :) 11. If someone is lying on the bottom of their 5 ft square (5 ft underwater) and someone from the surface wants to heal, how close do they need to be? - When the druid riding her wolf was in the 5 ft. square *next* to the one the scout went unconscious in, she wanted to heal him. I ruled he was out of reach because he was laying on the bottom of this 5 ft. deep water, and she was a gnome riding her wolf. Not just that, but she wasn't even above him, but in a square next to the one he was 'in'. She said that it should still be a diagonal touch, but I thought that was stretching her reach (literally) a bit much, especially considering she was a gnome. I gave it to her when she was in the same square as him, just above him. There are probably more questions. All in all this was a badly run encounter, that I wish I had been a lot more prepared for, as everyone was confused by it. A lot of 'by the seats' DMing isn't much fun for anyone. Thankfully, no one died, and they got all the loot in the end. I even plan to give some bonus XP if it turns out my 'flying by the seat of my pants' DMing caused more harm than good. If I was wrong on some of the combat mechanics, I won't mind so much if I was also wrong about the scout's 'drowing', and he technically should have died. I think it balances out a bit then. Advice welcome by all! Thank you!
Marcus Majarra 07-02-07, 02:05 AM	1. Do characters that can 'reach' the bottom need to make swim checks (it was a DC 10 for calm water) to do their movement and such each round? 1/4 movement as move action, 1/2 as full-round? Characters who reach the bottom no longer need to make Swim checks to move, as they have firm footing, assuming they're carrying a sufficiently heavy load (DMG92). They simply move at half speed while they have firm footing. 2. Is it feasible to Ride a wolf in a water environment? It's as feasible as riding any other sort of mount, underwater. Ultimately, the rider's movements will depend on his mount's. It's far more likely that the wolf will swim to the surface, if it has no ability to breathe water. 3. Attacks in water? Creatures suffer no penalties for fighting underwater with piercing weapons. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons generally carry penalties unless you're benefitting from freedom of movement (DMG92). 4. Spellcasting in the water? Fire spells are affected as described on DMG93. The only other possible drawbacks from casting spells underwater have to do with the kind of currents affecting the water. Spellcasting will require a Concentration check with a DC of 10/15/20 + spell level to cast if the water involves some vigorous motion on the caster (the DC varies with how vigorous/violent the motion is), as described in PHB70. 5. How long does it take to drown if you're into negatives? It's safe to assume that the character at negative hit points drowns after being deprived of air for 1 round, similarly to what's indicated on DMG304. 6. How about paralyzed? Normally, paralyzed characters can breathe (otherwise they'd always be suffocating). As such, they can also hold their breath. 7. What good is Vortex when it can't damage? A water elemental's Vortex is pretty much useless unless the elemental is larger than its opponents. This ability works only on creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental (MM101). 8. Can another character pull someone out of a vortex? Not without house ruling. The simplest way to pull someone out of the Vortex is to disable the water elemental. 9. Should those taller than 5 feet even needed swim checks, even though it was only some-all of their head sticking above the water? Firm footing makes it unnecessary to make swim checks. Attacks from land might incur penalties, as described on DMG93. 10. If a character fails their swim check, they go underwater. Is this really a big deal? Can't they just use a swim check next round to start moving (if they succeed) and put their head back up as they swim? It's a big deal if you start to drown. If you take too long in succeeding in that Swim check to resurface, you might very well drown. And all the actions you waste swimming cannot be used elsewhere. It's not a big deal when there's no threat around. Otherwise... 11. If someone is lying on the bottom of their 5 ft square (5 ft underwater) and someone from the surface wants to heal, how close do they need to be? They need to be underwater too, assuming conventional touch-range healing. Touch range spells require that you attack the target, and completely submerged creatures have total cover relative to creatures outside the water (DMG93). You can't make attacks against creatures with total cover (PHB152), so no healing here.
Salla 07-02-07, 02:14 AM	MORE RAW UNBRIDLED RULES KNOWLEDGE THAN I'VE SEEN IN A LONG, LONG TIME. :bow:
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 02:42 AM	That was just pure awesome. I bow down to your knowledge of the rules, sir. A few questions on some of them, however. It's as feasible as riding any other sort of mount, underwater. Ultimately, the rider's movements will depend on his mount's. It's far more likely that the wolf will swim to the surface, if it has no ability to breathe water. Well, the idea was that her wolf would be swimming in the water, but not underwater (doggy paddle! :) ), and she could ride on top of it. What kind of checks do you think she would need? At the time, I gave her wolf the normal swim check of DC 10 for calm water, as it wasn't reaching the bottom, and gave her a DC 15 ride check, as the wolf probably wasn't very 'stable' in water. That, and it was bareback. Should these have been different? I wasn't sure on the numbers when I did them, though I thought they were close enough to work. Fire spells are affected as described on DMG93. The only other possible drawbacks from casting spells underwater have to do with the kind of currents affecting the water. Spellcasting will require a Concentration check with a DC of 10/15/20 + spell level to cast if the water involves some vigorous motion on the caster (the DC varies with how vigorous/violent the motion is), as described in PHB70. I had the fire part down, I just wasn't sure on normal spellcasting, as the character was one of the shorter ones and couldn't stand on the floor. With somatic component spells, I ruled a simple DC 10 + spell level. The water was calm, though the small water elemental was nearby (not in vortex mode though), so there was probably a small bit of turbulence from the battle. Was a check even needed for calm water, even with her swimming? It's safe to assume that the character at negative hit points drowns after being deprived of air for 1 round, similarly to what's indicated on DMG304. This was one of the bigger ones that I decided to err on the caution of player life with. Your answer was what I thought initially, but as it wasn't clear and I didn't want to kill a character on a not-clear answer, I gave the player the benefit of the doubt and an extra round, which saved his life. Afterwards, we talked about it and he said that on the CO boards, there is a common mechanic used with this that involves a character going to negative hit points, 'drowing' themselves, and bumping their HP back to -1, or something. As the rules for drowing say, it goes from 0, to -1, to dead, and doesn't say anything about what happens if you start at, say, -7. I don't buy being able to 'heal' by drowing, but by RAW, there doesn't seem anything against it unfortunately. :( Normally, paralyzed characters can breathe (otherwise they'd always be suffocating). As such, they can also hold their breath. Absolutely, as I found out by reading some more on the rules later. Thankfully, the ghoul got taken care of rather quickly, so it was a moot issue. Not without house ruling. The simplest way to pull someone out of the Vortex is to disable the water elemental. I blame the adventure path on this one. It suggested the combat options for the elemental to 'lead off with a vortex, then go into slam attacks', but after using it, I couldn't see the benefit in the vortex. Most of the characters would have at least their constitution score in rounds (if you rule that trying to escape a vortex is a standard action, otherwise they'd get double their con score) to escape that DC 13 reflex check, which is nothing. I went with just the slams afterwards, but that did puzzle me a bit as to its usefulness. Someone in the other thread said something about elementals in a vortex being immune to attacks, but I don't see anything about that in the monster manual. It's a big deal if you start to drown. If you take too long in succeeding in that Swim check to resurface, you might very well drown. And all the actions you waste swimming cannot be used elsewhere. It's not a big deal when there's no threat around. Otherwise... Wasting actions is a good point, but the round limit for holding ones breath is so long that I don't think any of them were worried about drowning. I think my biggest mistake on this was not letting those who could touch the floor just move half speed per move action (is it a move, or full round? I believe a move. Can they double move to go their full speed?), and the attacks in the water, which could have ended the elemental's life a LOT sooner. Overall, I think the mistake on not killing off the scout evened it up a bit, but it was still an annoying encounter for all involved. Thanks again for your responses! I shouldn't ever need advice on underwater combat again after this. ^_^
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 03:24 AM	They need to be underwater too, assuming conventional touch-range healing. Touch range spells require that you attack the target, and completely submerged creatures have total cover relative to creatures outside the water (DMG93). You can't make attacks against creatures with total cover (PHB152), so no healing here. I just checked this, it says that completely submerged characters have total cover against those on land. Would someone treading water on the surface be counted as 'on land' for this purpose, if the intended target is within 5 ft. below them?
Kouk 07-02-07, 07:01 AM	About Drowning: Stormwrack states that a comatose, dying, paralyzed, sleeping or unconscious character begins drowning the round after they sink into the water. Stunned or Dazed characters can hold their breath after they go under.
Rotfl_and_Lol 07-02-07, 10:46 AM	Rules in Stormwrack are too deadly IMO. 3 Rounds and death? And daze = sink without breath? Stun yes, but daze should allow taking breath. And what's the difference between lack of air because you had no time to breath and lack of air because you used it all? This would also make hold person save or die (instead of save or possibility of death).
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 11:43 AM	About Drowning: Stormwrack states that a comatose, dying, paralyzed, sleeping or unconscious character begins drowning the round after they sink into the water. Stunned or Dazed characters can hold their breath after they go under. In regards to the first part, do you mean drowning as in "starting the three round table, meaning they have two rounds left before death" or drowning as in "they die on the next round"? Rules in Stormwrack are too deadly IMO. 3 Rounds and death? And daze = sink without breath? Stun yes, but daze should allow taking breath. And what's the difference between lack of air because you had no time to breath and lack of air because you used it all? This would also make hold person save or die (instead of save or possibility of death). First of all, it's 2 rounds and death, even with holding your breath. On the first round you fail, you go to 0. Next round, you go to negatives (-1). Round after that, death. Technically it's three, but as you die on the third round, there's really only two full rounds between the character going to 0 and death. As for the difference? There is none. Lack of air is lack of air. If you don't have air in your lungs for whatever reason, you don't have air in your lungs. Here's how I always saw the progression, for both drowning after running out of air, and going under after hitting negatives. Drowning after running out of air Round 1: Player fails first check to hold their breath. Character goes to 0 HP. Character begins to black out. Round 2: Character goes to -1. Character blacks out, and begins to breathe in water. Round 3: Character breathes in too much water, and dies. Going under with negative HP Round 1: Character is knocked into negative HP and falls unconscious. Character begins to breathe in water. Round 2: Character breathes in too much water, and dies.
Rotfl_and_Lol 07-02-07, 03:24 PM	Drowning after running out of air Round 1: Player fails first check to hold their breath. Character goes to 0 HP. Character begins to black out. Round 2: Character goes to -1. Character blacks out, and begins to breathe in water. Round 3: Character breathes in too much water, and dies. Going under with negative HP Round 1: Character is knocked into negative HP and falls unconscious. Character begins to breathe in water. Round 2: Character breathes in too much water, and dies. There are no checks to hold your breath. When you hit your CON in rounds you have not enough oxygen in lungs, and start fighting for your consciousness. Water isn't inhaled poison. Characters don't care if they breathe water or don't breathe at all (unless you breathe water with spell of the same name, or have aquatic subtype). Third round is like: Character has not enough oxygen to maintain basic life functions and dies. Once again it's not water which kills him, but lack of oxygen. Aquatic creatures can "drown" too, and they use same rules for drowning. First progression is mechanically OK, second is not. If you have something against 0 hp heal munchkinism (everyone should have :P) then just give him one round in which he takes no damage. And again: checks aren't to hold breath, but to maintain consciousness and keep functioning properly with oxygen below critical level. You're correct about 2 rounds. Drowning character has 2 rounds, his allies have 3 (to rescue him).
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 03:36 PM	There are no checks to hold your breath. When you hit your CON in rounds you have not enough oxygen in lungs, and start fighting for your consciousness. Water isn't inhaled poison. Characters don't care if they breathe water or don't breathe at all (unless you breathe water with spell of the same name, or have aquatic subtype). Third round is like: Character has not enough oxygen to maintain basic life functions and dies. Once again it's not water which kills him, but lack of oxygen. Aquatic creatures can "drown" too, and they use same rules for drowning. First progression is mechanically OK, second is not. If you have something against 0 hp heal munchkinism (everyone should have :P) then just give him one round in which he takes no damage. And again: checks aren't to hold breath, but to maintain consciousness and keep functioning properly with oxygen below critical level. You're correct about 2 rounds. Drowning character has 2 rounds, his allies have 3 (to rescue him). From the DMG: Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. Looks like a check to hold your breath to me. :) Regardless, going into negatives and falling underwater *should* have a harsher death penalty than just failing to hold your breath. Even with a 6 Con, a character could theoretically (just move actions and such) hold their breath for 12 rounds, and more after that if they make the Constitution checks to keep holding their breath. That's a lot of time to begin drowning. If someone goes into negative HP from a battle or such, they shouldn't have the same amount of time a fully healthy person has before dying from loss of breath. That first round a fully healthy person fails their initial Constituion score is key. At that point, they have run out of breath and are blacking out. A person knocked into unconsciousness skips this point, they black out immediately, and lose hold of their breath, putting them at the same negative HP point that a healthy character would have reached after one round. Also, from the Monster Manual. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. So no, an aquatic creature cannot 'drown', unless that ability is taken away. Also, no, water is not listed under 'poisons', but it is a rule of common sense. You inhale water, you're going to damage your lungs severely. Inhale too much, plus running out of air, you die. You can call this a case of 'trying to apply realism to Dungeons and Dragons', but so long as the race needs to breathe air, and their description doesn't say anything about 'being able to inhale water just fine', I'd take the same approach with them as I would a human. Lastly, the allies would only really have two rounds. Initiave: P1 P2 P3 P4 On P1's turn, he fails his Con check, goes to 0, begins to drown. The other players get one turn before he goes to negatives, and one more before he dies. Two total.
Kouk 07-02-07, 07:58 PM	In regards to the first part, do you mean drowning as in "starting the three round table, meaning they have two rounds left before death" or drowning as in "they die on the next round"? They go through the process of Drowning as in the DMG as if they had failed their check to hold their breath, starting with the 3 rounds until they die. So they go under, and then next round they are unconscious (if not already I suppose), then they are at -1, then they die. Personally I am more inclined to treat Drowning as if you were bleeding out 1hp a round with no chance to stabilize. People can be resuscitated after some time in the water, in movies and TV it could be minutes even :P. Edit: My house rules -- If a drowning person is brought out of the water, they have a normal chance to stabilize on their own and eventually become conscious (think castaways that wash up on the shores of deserted islands). If they are brought out of the water and someone performs a DC 15 Heal check (pushing the water out and CPR) the person becomes stable as normal. If someone grants the drowning person Water Breathing, then he automatically stabilizes and might regain consciousness as normal if left to his own devices, unless healed magically or given long term care.
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 08:00 PM	I'll have to check Stormwrack, as that makes little to no sense to me. If it's in there though, I suppose it'll have to do. The biggest idiocy with that rule is they basically go: Down to -7, go unconscious. Go to 0. Become conscious. Next round, go to -1. Unconscious again. Next round. Dead. :(
Kouk 07-02-07, 08:22 PM	I'll have to check Stormwrack, as that makes little to no sense to me. If it's in there though, I suppose it'll have to do. The biggest idiocy with that rule is they basically go: Down to -7, go unconscious. Go to 0. Become conscious. Next round, go to -1. Unconscious again. Next round. Dead. :( Heh, that is probably not what was intended. I think the rules assume you actually are just flat able to breath or not when you start to drown, they don't consider why you went under. So if you are unconscious, you stay unconscious and the first round of drowning is meaningless (though I would be inclined to err on the side of the player and just have nothing happen rather than skipping it). Then you begin "bleeding", which would still be meaningless if you already were at negative hit points, so again nothing happens in that case. Then you die. I don't think any healing would take place, only downward movement of hit points.
Karui_Kage 07-02-07, 09:38 PM	I have access to the Stormwrack book now, can you tell me what page it was on? Edit: Nevermind, I found it, and see the part it mentions. I still disagree about its implementation, though. It doesn't make sense that an unconscious and dying person has just as long before they die underwater as someone who hasn't even gone unconscious yet. That, and there's still the whole issue of that 'go to 0' thing. Your implementation is one way, but by RAW, they would 'begin to drown' on the round they go under. Which would mean they go to 0, back to -1, then die, no matter how negative their starting HP. I may just have to house rule this. The way it's written is strangely put together.
Rotfl_and_Lol 07-03-07, 09:24 AM	Looks like a check to hold your breath to me. :) Sry, realism isn't compatible with D&D. My fault. :P Drowning rules... are really bad. Stormwrack changes spells that are supposed to be battlefield controllers into Save or Dies. Epic almost-immortal paragon tank has 2 rounds of life when immobilized under water, just like commoner... Hopefully they are easy to house rule without unbalancing them. Healing by drowning is well-known way to survive any damage, if you have delay death, but one rule and it can't be used anymore. Making 2 lvl spells save or die in water can be fixed by altering rules presented in Stormwrack (give drowning and paralyzed creatures saving throws as normal when you run out of air).
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:28 AM	First things first: @ Karui_Kage: I also think that you did a good job improvising during the situation (and I will be forewarned to stage a figth in an unusual environment without very good preperation, because I´m not sure that I will be equally creative). About the XP thing: if you want to give them some extra, as an situation modifier (it was a favorable environment for the elemental), but not because you were not as prepared as you would have liked to have been. About the weapon thing: the characters were completely inexperienced, but now they know how to use their not light weapons quite effectively underwater (and that their light, not puncturing weapons were not as effective as they thought during the fight). Let the rules lawyering and houseruling begin ;) : SRD at http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/skillsStr.html SWIM (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action) . . . So I would suggest that although not needing a swim check because you have solid ground to stand on, moving 1/2 your speed while nearly totaly immersed in water does take a full round action (or move action for 1/4 movement). In shallow water I would ask for balance checks, but allow faster movement (like in difficult terain). . . . If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score (NOT double Con), but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown . . . On houseruling: I would suggest to let the player of an unconscious character roll a D20, the chars Con score being the maximum possible and use this number instead of the mentioned Con score rounds a conscious character would be able to hold his breath, but allow no Constitution checks after that. 2. Is it feasible to Ride a wolf in a water environment? I would say let the wolf do the swimming (checks), but also read the description of the skill ! . . . Special: Swim checks are subject to double the normal armor check penalty and encumbrance penalty . . . So let´s take a look at the situation: Wolf Str 13 -> light load < 50 lb., medium load 51–100 lb. heavy load 101–150 lb. but because a wolf is a quadrupeded medium creature, you have to take this weight figures time 1.5 -> 75- / 75-150 / 150+ What´s the characters weight + equipment (armor and weapons count into this) ? http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/description.html : A female gnome´s weight is between 37 and 43 lbs. We assume she does not want to be encumbered so she is carrying equipment weighing 25 lbs. (tops for a small character with Str 10). So 62 - 68 lbs. is still under the 75 lbs. the wolf can carry before being encumbered (and still being able to use his full move of 50 ft. /2 or /4 for swimming), but I would suggest that you do double the weight to calculate the encumberance and not the otherway around (like the rules say) if you did so, the wolf would have a -3 penalty on his swim (strenght) check (and be only able to move at 35 ft. /2 or /4 for swimming). Even worse, if the gnome had only 14 - 8 lbs, loaded onto the wolfes back (trying to transport food or some camping gear), the penalty would be -6 makinig it nearly impossible for the wolf to carry her while swimming and reduce her max Dex to +1 and thus make it easier to hit for the elemental . . . A creature with a swim speed (I guess a water elemental has a swim speed ?) can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line. I would say this indicates that a creature with swim speed can charge in / under water ? Any ideas / objections ? :confused: And two other thougths: I. Kouk: Personally I am more inclined to treat Drowning as if you were bleeding out 1hp a round with no chance to stabilize. I think this is a good idea, but I would suggest not letting the charakter stabelize on his own, no matter what, he needs to have another character get the water out of his lungs. You could also incorporate this idea into the Constitution check procedure (first missed check hp 0 from nonlethal damage, each further missed check 1 further nonlethal damage) and just throw this 1. 0 hp, 2. -1, 3. dead thing into the waste bin (where it belongs ;) ). Instead of losing hp (from nonlethal damage ?) you could also just do simultanious attribute damage to the character. Int, Wis, Cha your brain deteriorates (permanently ?) + Con your heart ceases to function. Con -> 0 you drowned :weep: II. Are there rules on how to strangle someone ? Or is this covered by the unarmed damage while grappling ? Because I would think that beeing strangled and drowning is quite similar (thus the houseruling idea on damage instead of the 3 rounds thing).
Karui_Kage 07-03-07, 03:55 PM	First things first: Let the rules lawyering and houseruling begin ;) : SRD at http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/skillsStr.html SWIM (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action) . . . So I would suggest that although not needing a swim check because you have solid ground to stand on, moving 1/2 your speed while nearly totaly immersed in water does take a full round action (or move action for 1/4 movement). In shallow water I would ask for balance checks, but allow faster movement (like in difficult terain). The DMG pages listed in one of the first replies actually clarify this. If a character can walk along the bottom, and weighs enough, he gets half movement, and (apparently) doesn't need a swim check. Balance checks seem appropriate for moving faster in very shallow water (a foot or so, slipperty). . . . If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score (NOT double Con), but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown . . . I know about this rule, it just didn't come up much in the situation. The water was only 5 feet deep, so going under didn't take much to get back up. I would say let the wolf do the swimming (checks), but also read the description of the skill ![/I] . . . Special: Swim checks are subject to double the normal armor check penalty and encumbrance penalty . . . So let´s take a look at the situation: Wolf Str 13 -> light load < 50 lb., medium load 51–100 lb. heavy load 101–150 lb. but because a wolf is a quadruped medium creature, you have to take this weight figures time 1.5 -> 75- / 75-150 / 150+ What´s the characters weight + equipment (armor and weapons count into this) ? http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/description.html : A female gnome´s weight is between 37 and 43 lbs. We assume she does not want to be encumbered so she is carrying equipment weighing 25 lbs. (tops for a small character with Str 10). She has a 6 strength, and tries to keep her load very *very* light, under 15 lbs. if possible. So 62 - 68 lbs. is still under the 75 lbs. the wolf can carry before being encumbered (and still being able to use his full move of 50 ft. /2 or /4 for swimming), but I would suggest that you do double the weight to calculate the encumberance and not the otherway around (like the rules say) if you did so, the wolf would have a -3 penalty on his swim (strenght) check (and be only able to move at 35 ft. /2 or /4 for swimming). The wolf already has a poor swim score, I don't think I need to make it worse by house-ruling this. So long as she's within its light load, she should be fine. The problem I was having primarily was calculating her Ride check DC. I was making it way too low, it seems. I forgot that the DC for controlling a mount in battle is 20, and that would apply any mount not trained for being ridden into battle (regardless of being trained for battle), +5 for no saddle, so a DC 25. . . . A creature with a swim speed [I](I guess a water elemental has a swim speed ?) can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line. I would say this indicates that a creature with swim speed can charge in / under water ? Any ideas / objections ? :confused: As far as I know, a creature with a swim speed can still charge in water up to double that swim speed. I. I think this is a good idea, but I would suggest not letting the charakter stabelize on his own, no matter what, he needs to have another character get the water out of his lungs. I don't think stabilizing is the greatest of his worries, and don't see why he couldn't still stabilize. The druid had a fast healing aura going for 3 rounds anyways (1 hp per round, from PHB2 variant), so that stabilized him. You could also incorporate this idea into the Constitution check procedure (first missed check hp 0 from nonlethal damage, each further missed check 1 further nonlethal damage) and just throw this 1. 0 hp, 2. -1, 3. dead thing into the waste bin (where it belongs ;) ). Instead of losing hp (from nonlethal damage ?) you could also just do simultanious attribute damage to the character. Int, Wis, Cha your brain deteriorates (permanently ?) + Con your heart ceases to function. Con -> 0 you drowned :weep: Bit too much extra work for me, I'm fine with just a couple rounds explanation. No point getting crazy with ability damage. :) II. Are there rules on how to strangle someone ? Or is this covered by the unarmed damage while grappling ? Because I would think that beeing strangled and drowning is quite similar (thus the houseruling idea on damage instead of the 3 rounds thing). No official ones, I believe. Because of Stormwrack's rules, I may go with giving him two rounds before death instead of one in the future, just not explaining it the same. First Round: Character goes into negatives, slips into water, starts to drown. HP stays the same. Second Round: Character possibly loses another hit point, or stabilizes. Still unconscious underwater. Third Round: Character dies. It's only one extra round, so I'm fine with that. Also, I never did get an official ruling on the total cover thing. The underwater combat rules say submerged creatures have total cover from those on land, but it doesn't say anything about those total cover from those treading water on the surface (I'd rule that riding the wolf would be considered 'land' for the rider).
Marcus Majarra 07-03-07, 08:04 PM	It's a guess, but I'm thinking attacks from land refer to attacks from outside the water. The simplest way to resolve this would be to grant total cover against all attacks, except those that come from inside the water, which suffer from normal underwater combat restrictions.
Kaurus 07-03-07, 08:16 PM	Let the rules lawyering and houseruling begin : SRD at http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/skillsStr.html SWIM (STR; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action) . . . So I would suggest that although not needing a swim check because you have solid ground to stand on, moving 1/2 your speed while nearly totaly immersed in water does take a full round action (or move action for 1/4 movement). In shallow water I would ask for balance checks, but allow faster movement (like in difficult terain). The DMG pages listed in one of the first replies actually clarify this. If a character can walk along the bottom, and weighs enough, he gets half movement, and (apparently) doesn't need a swim check. Balance checks seem appropriate for moving faster in very shallow water (a foot or so, slipperty). I just wanted to put that right, because in Marcus Majarra´s reply he stated that you could use 1/2 your move, but missed the information that this is for a double move (for a normal move action it is only 1/4 your speed) and you interpreted his post incorrectly: . . . I think my biggest mistake on this was not letting those who could touch the floor just move half speed per move action (is it a move, or full round? I believe a move. Can they double move to go their full speed?) . . . . . . You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score (NOT double Con), but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. . . . I know about this rule, it just didn't come up much in the situation. The water was only 5 feet deep, so going under didn't take much to get back up. I only wanted to stress that you get only your Con score (not double) # rounds, before you have to make the Con checks, because in your 2. post you wrote. . . Most of the characters would have at least their constitution score in rounds (if you rule that trying to escape a vortex is a standard action, otherwise they'd get double their con score) . . . which is wrong (you even get only 1/2 your Con score when performing standard or full-round actions). As far as I know, a creature with a swim speed can still charge in water up to double that swim speed. Thanks :) But still, what do you think about my suggestion ? On houseruling: I would suggest to let the player of an unconscious character roll a D20, the chars Con score being the maximum possible and use this number instead of the mentioned Con score rounds a conscious character would be able to hold his breath, but allow no Constitution checks after that. Or do you really want to make falling into water (like a 1 ft. deep puddle you happen to immerse your unconscious head in) that dangerous for an unconscious character ? Because of Stormwrack's rules, I may go with giving him two rounds before death instead of one in the future, just not explaining it the same. First Round: Character goes into negatives, slips into water, starts to drown. HP stays the same. Second Round: Character possibly loses another hit point, or stabilizes. Still unconscious underwater. Third Round: Character dies. It's only one extra round, so I'm fine with that. Also, I never did get an official ruling on the total cover thing. The underwater combat rules say submerged creatures have total cover from those on land, but it doesn't say anything about those total cover from those treading water on the surface (I'd rule that riding the wolf would be considered 'land' for the rider). Hm, I couldn´t find anything on this in the SRD and will only be able to take a look into the DMG the earliest on Thurday, but from my experience with the "light breaking effect" of water (I don´t know the English word for it, but it means that things seem to be somewhere they are not when you look into or out of the water), I would suggest a houseruling to change this total cover thing into a total concealment 50 % miss chance or 20 % if this seems to strict (and you could also invent a new feat that cancels this miss chance).
Kaurus 07-03-07, 08:26 PM	It's a guess, but I'm thinking attacks from land refer to attacks from outside the water. The simplest way to resolve this would be to grant total cover against all attacks, except those that come from inside the water, which suffer from normal underwater combat restrictions. From the SRD:Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. This seems very broken to me . . . you can´t attack something that is inside the water but something in the water can attack you ? (this light breaking thing I mentioned works in both directions [the little fishes that spit water at Insects to make them fall into the water are used to this change in vision (they have the w2a attack feat ;) )]) If you want to houserule this I would still go for concealment (read end of my previous post).
Karui_Kage 07-03-07, 08:50 PM	Just a couple of quick comments: I just wanted to put that right, because in Marcus Majarra´s reply he stated that you could use 1/2 your move, but missed the information that this is for a double move (for a normal move action it is only 1/4 your speed) and you interpreted his post incorrectly: For a swim check, yes. For firm footing, no. On page 92 of the DMG, the table for Combat Adjustments Underwater lists quarter or half for movement on a Successful Swim Check, which is what you're referring to. For "Firm Footing", which is what I was referring to, walking along the bottom, movement is just half. Also, even the one-half speed for swim isn't a double move, it's a full round action. On the footnote below the table. I only wanted to stress that you get only your Con score (not double) # rounds, before you have to make the Con checks, because in your 2. post you wrote which is wrong (you even get only 1/2 your Con score when performing standard or full-round actions). Fom the PHB, page 84, it says You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. Going by this, it would seem you are correct. However, in the DMG, page 304, under Drowning, it states that a character can hold their breath for double their Constitution score in rounds. I quickly looked in the FAQ and Errata, but didn't see this as a correction in either. Can anyone point out which is right, and if so, where it was said?
Marcus Majarra 07-03-07, 09:17 PM	Errata rules give DMG precedence over the PHB on drowning rules (since the DMG is the primary rules source on suffocation).
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:23 PM	Just a couple of quick comments: For a swim check, yes. For firm footing, no. On page 92 of the DMG, the table for Combat Adjustments Underwater lists quarter or half for movement on a Successful Swim Check, which is what you're referring to. For "Firm Footing", which is what I was referring to, walking along the bottom, movement is just half. Also, even the one-half speed for swim isn't a double move, it's a full round action. On the footnote below the table. Fom the PHB, page 84, it says Going by this, it would seem you are correct. However, in the DMG, page 304, under Drowning, it states that a character can hold their breath for double their Constitution score in rounds. I quickly looked in the FAQ and Errata, but didn't see this as a correction in either. Can anyone point out which is right, and if so, where it was said? Hm, seems like I need a DMG ;) So, please excuse my persistence and thanks for your patience :)
weasel0 07-04-07, 10:43 PM	I have the newest DMG version(the leather bound one) and it has the listing for double CON/ rd to hold one's breath. I had the same argument w/ a friend cause he has the older DMG. The leather bound version has all the errata in it. SUFFOCATION A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The save must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.