Very low Int humans [Archive] - Wizards Community

Very low Int humans [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sigst
02-14-07, 10:30 AM If we have a human fighter with intelligence 6, how is the number of skill points calculated. There are two approaches which seem reasonable.

Fighter has 2 skill points, human has one bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. Intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty, so one skill point only.
Fighter has two skill points, intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty so 0 skill points. But the number of skill points cannot sink below 1 so it is now 1 skill point. Then humans have a bonus skill point so a grand sum of two skill points.

Sig
Frugal
02-14-07, 10:36 AM Fighter has 2 skill points, human has one bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. Intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty, so one skill point only.
Fighter has two skill points, intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty so 0 skill points. But the number of skill points cannot sink below 1 so it is now 1 skill point. Then humans have a bonus skill point so a grand sum of two skill points.

Personally, I like the option to say only 1 skill point, it sucks but then there is a difference between INT 6 and INT 8; fighter has 2 skill points, human has 1 bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 2 skill points total.

If you do the other method you get; Fighter has 2 skill points, INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 1 skill point, then humans have a bonus skill point so total of 2 skill points.

See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points. This could have serious repercussions if you're using a point buy and allow people to drop stats below 8 and are playing with min-maxers.
Sigst
02-14-07, 10:45 AM Personally, I like the option to say only 1 skill point, it sucks but then there is a difference between INT 6 and INT 8; fighter has 2 skill points, human has 1 bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 2 skill points total.

If you do the other method you get; Fighter has 2 skill points, INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 1 skill point, then humans have a bonus skill point so total of 2 skill points.

See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points. This could have serious repercussions if you're using a point buy and allow people to drop stats below 8 and are playing with min-maxers.

Thanks. The problem with the first method is that with only one skill point a low int half-elf becomes a very viable option compared to a low int human. It gives up only the bonus feat, and in return gets a number of racial bonuses as well as low light vision. With normal intelligence scores, a half elf would be giving up the bonus feat AND the bonus skill points of a human.
Tarus
02-14-07, 11:55 AM I believe its option 2. Im working from memory but I believe skill points are caculated (at level 1) by taking (4 x class skill points) + int mod (min 1). And then you add in the bonus's for being a human.

Unless im mistaken, the +4 (at level 1) skill points for being a human is added after you do all of the math for the normal skill points. It could be taken the other way since the first part of the equation could end up being negative but I wouldn't for one main reason. Humans gain the skill points because they adapt to situations. It has little to do with intelligence...its their racial ability. You wouldn't be so dumb that your racial abilities of being good to adapt wouldn't come into play. Cavemen were dumb, but they adapted.
KingMarl
02-14-07, 02:02 PM Not sure I agree with the discussions above. I don't believe there are any places where you apply some of the modifiers, adjust to some minimum, and then apply the rest of the modifiers.

If there's a cap, it just ensures that the final result is that minimum. If you're too stupid to get more than 1 skill point, then you're too stupid to get more than one skill point, human or not. A human's just got to be 2 points stupider to bring it down that far.
Frugal
02-14-07, 02:09 PM Not sure I agree with the discussions above. I don't believe there are any places where you apply some of the modifiers, adjust to some minimum, and then apply the rest of the modifiers.

If there's a cap, it just ensures that the final result is that minimum. If you're too stupid to get more than 1 skill point, then you're too stupid to get more than one skill point, human or not. A human's just got to be 2 points stupider to bring it down that far.

True, use the recent Ask Sage article about buffs and ability damage. If you're drained STR (for instance) to 0 then have bull's strength cast on you you're at STR 4, if you take 4+ more STR you're back down to 0, you don't say that you're already at 0 STR and can't go lower and then add the enhancement bonus.

And as I mentioned, if you do it the other way there's absolutely no difference between an INT 6 and INT 8 for skill points which just begs for abuse with point buy systems if you allow reducing your stats below 8 to get more points.
Morwen
02-14-07, 02:16 PM It's option 2. You would normally get 1 skill point, but since you are Human you get 1 extra skill point. Note that it says "extra skill point" in the race description, not "+1 when calculating skill points".
Sigst
02-15-07, 09:40 AM Thanks for the responses! There does not seem to be full agreement of the correct formula here, which is in one sense slightly frustrating, but on the other hand it is heartening that it isn't me who has overlooked something really, really, obvious in the books :)

Sig
Some_call_me_Tim
02-15-07, 10:06 AM I vote for option 2, they are bonus skill points so are above and beyond the normal skill points.

See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points.Compare this to any race besides human. Once you are at 8 INT, dropping further has no consequences either. Why punish humans for being human. You wouldn't take away a half-orc bonus to strength because of a low INT why take away a human's bonus because of a low INT.
Nom
02-19-07, 11:14 PM FAQ says #2 also.
weasel0
02-20-07, 12:03 AM Think of it like a flaming weapon with a negative to strength.

human bonus = Flaming (is separate from the weapon)
skill point gain = weapon dmg (is determined plus modifiers)
-str = -int (is the modifier)

Okay, that looks confusing but hold on.

Example:
Dagger 1D4; 3str(-4); with flaming(1D6) = 1D4+(-4)+(1D6) = 1(min dmg rule)+1D6

Same way for the skills
Example:
Fighter +2; 6int(-2); human bonus(+4 or 1@each lv) =
2+(-2)+4 = 1+4 = 5 for starting
or
2+(-2)+1 = 1+1 = 2 for each lv
10001110101
02-23-07, 02:25 AM FAQ says #2 also.

Where is it mentioned in the FAQ? I don't seem to see anything about it.
pmurray@bigpond.com
02-25-07, 04:04 AM Characters always get one skill point/lev (and 4 at 1st level), regardless of how low their intelligence is (PHB, p62). Humans always get an extra point/lev (and an extra 4 at 1st).

Once again - that page number is 62.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sigst 02-14-07, 10:30 AM	If we have a human fighter with intelligence 6, how is the number of skill points calculated. There are two approaches which seem reasonable. Fighter has 2 skill points, human has one bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. Intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty, so one skill point only. Fighter has two skill points, intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty so 0 skill points. But the number of skill points cannot sink below 1 so it is now 1 skill point. Then humans have a bonus skill point so a grand sum of two skill points. Sig
Frugal 02-14-07, 10:36 AM	Fighter has 2 skill points, human has one bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. Intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty, so one skill point only. Fighter has two skill points, intelligence 6 means a -2 penalty so 0 skill points. But the number of skill points cannot sink below 1 so it is now 1 skill point. Then humans have a bonus skill point so a grand sum of two skill points. Personally, I like the option to say only 1 skill point, it sucks but then there is a difference between INT 6 and INT 8; fighter has 2 skill points, human has 1 bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 2 skill points total. If you do the other method you get; Fighter has 2 skill points, INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 1 skill point, then humans have a bonus skill point so total of 2 skill points. See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points. This could have serious repercussions if you're using a point buy and allow people to drop stats below 8 and are playing with min-maxers.
Sigst 02-14-07, 10:45 AM	Personally, I like the option to say only 1 skill point, it sucks but then there is a difference between INT 6 and INT 8; fighter has 2 skill points, human has 1 bonus skill point. Total 3 skill points. INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 2 skill points total. If you do the other method you get; Fighter has 2 skill points, INT 8 means a -1 penalty so 1 skill point, then humans have a bonus skill point so total of 2 skill points. See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points. This could have serious repercussions if you're using a point buy and allow people to drop stats below 8 and are playing with min-maxers. Thanks. The problem with the first method is that with only one skill point a low int half-elf becomes a very viable option compared to a low int human. It gives up only the bonus feat, and in return gets a number of racial bonuses as well as low light vision. With normal intelligence scores, a half elf would be giving up the bonus feat AND the bonus skill points of a human.
Tarus 02-14-07, 11:55 AM	I believe its option 2. Im working from memory but I believe skill points are caculated (at level 1) by taking (4 x class skill points) + int mod (min 1). And then you add in the bonus's for being a human. Unless im mistaken, the +4 (at level 1) skill points for being a human is added after you do all of the math for the normal skill points. It could be taken the other way since the first part of the equation could end up being negative but I wouldn't for one main reason. Humans gain the skill points because they adapt to situations. It has little to do with intelligence...its their racial ability. You wouldn't be so dumb that your racial abilities of being good to adapt wouldn't come into play. Cavemen were dumb, but they adapted.
KingMarl 02-14-07, 02:02 PM	Not sure I agree with the discussions above. I don't believe there are any places where you apply some of the modifiers, adjust to some minimum, and then apply the rest of the modifiers. If there's a cap, it just ensures that the final result is that minimum. If you're too stupid to get more than 1 skill point, then you're too stupid to get more than one skill point, human or not. A human's just got to be 2 points stupider to bring it down that far.
Frugal 02-14-07, 02:09 PM	Not sure I agree with the discussions above. I don't believe there are any places where you apply some of the modifiers, adjust to some minimum, and then apply the rest of the modifiers. If there's a cap, it just ensures that the final result is that minimum. If you're too stupid to get more than 1 skill point, then you're too stupid to get more than one skill point, human or not. A human's just got to be 2 points stupider to bring it down that far. True, use the recent Ask Sage article about buffs and ability damage. If you're drained STR (for instance) to 0 then have bull's strength cast on you you're at STR 4, if you take 4+ more STR you're back down to 0, you don't say that you're already at 0 STR and can't go lower and then add the enhancement bonus. And as I mentioned, if you do it the other way there's absolutely no difference between an INT 6 and INT 8 for skill points which just begs for abuse with point buy systems if you allow reducing your stats below 8 to get more points.
Morwen 02-14-07, 02:16 PM	It's option 2. You would normally get 1 skill point, but since you are Human you get 1 extra skill point. Note that it says "extra skill point" in the race description, not "+1 when calculating skill points".
Sigst 02-15-07, 09:40 AM	Thanks for the responses! There does not seem to be full agreement of the correct formula here, which is in one sense slightly frustrating, but on the other hand it is heartening that it isn't me who has overlooked something really, really, obvious in the books :) Sig
Some_call_me_Tim 02-15-07, 10:06 AM	I vote for option 2, they are bonus skill points so are above and beyond the normal skill points. See how the 2nd option means that with an INT of 6 or 8 there's no difference? For that matter, even an INT of 4 still nets you 2 skill points.Compare this to any race besides human. Once you are at 8 INT, dropping further has no consequences either. Why punish humans for being human. You wouldn't take away a half-orc bonus to strength because of a low INT why take away a human's bonus because of a low INT.
Nom 02-19-07, 11:14 PM	FAQ says #2 also.
weasel0 02-20-07, 12:03 AM	Think of it like a flaming weapon with a negative to strength. human bonus = Flaming (is separate from the weapon) skill point gain = weapon dmg (is determined plus modifiers) -str = -int (is the modifier) Okay, that looks confusing but hold on. Example: Dagger 1D4; 3str(-4); with flaming(1D6) = 1D4+(-4)+(1D6) = 1(min dmg rule)+1D6 Same way for the skills Example: Fighter +2; 6int(-2); human bonus(+4 or 1@each lv) = 2+(-2)+4 = 1+4 = 5 for starting or 2+(-2)+1 = 1+1 = 2 for each lv
10001110101 02-23-07, 02:25 AM	FAQ says #2 also. Where is it mentioned in the FAQ? I don't seem to see anything about it.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-25-07, 04:04 AM	Characters always get one skill point/lev (and 4 at 1st level), regardless of how low their intelligence is (PHB, p62). Humans always get an extra point/lev (and an extra 4 at 1st). Once again - that page number is 62.