Wands & Use Magic Device [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wands & Use Magic Device [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Derges
05-21-07, 02:59 PM Reading through the skill description it says that its a Dc 20 to activate a wand, whereas a scroll has a Dc of 20 + spell level and the skill check to emulate an ability. Am I reading it correctly or is there a bit i'm missing? Does this mean its just as hard to activate a wand of maximised empowered fireball as it is to activate a simple wand of Magic Missle, ie a dc 20 for both?
Thanks.
Dazzer
05-21-07, 03:10 PM Not quite right, but close.

Wands: DC 20 if you know what they do
Wands: DC 25 if you don't know what they do

Scrolls: DC 20 + CASTER LEVEL, not spell level.
A 9th level spell scroll is therefore DC 37 minimum for Use Magic Device. Hardcore? Yes. However, Rogues + Wish Spells are feared for a reason.

The reason behind this is that wands go to a max of 4th level spells. Whereas scrolls can be of any level, and generally have a higher caster level then a wand, in addition to the one use you need being cheaper if you only need it once.

Staffs are where use magic device becomes completely haywire. Normally a staff works like thus.

UMD Check - 15 = Your Stat Score for the Staff. For example, if I score 30 on UMD I operate the staff with an Int score of 15.

UMD check - 20 = effective caster level of the staff. The same 30 would net me a caster level of 10 for the staff.

UMD DC: 20 to make staff go, or 25 if I don't know what it does.

There is no upper limit for the first two cases, so a rogue with +40 to Use Magic Device at 20th level, can easily score Caster Level 30, Int Score 35 for the purposes of Caster Level/DC. In Epic this skill becomes godly.

A good fix, is that a person cannot go above double their stat score for the purposes of this particular UMD check. A rogue with 15 Int is Capped at a UMD'd int of 30.

As for caster level, a good fix is that it caps at some formula to do with your level +3, or your level + 5, or perhaps even your level + 10. However, certain spells such as Blasphemy, Holy Word, and those Instant Death No Save spells that work along those lines are still horrendously overpowered.

Dice Freaks offered a very nice fix for those spells.

At 21st level you get a saving throw against the instant death effect.
At 31st level you gain a saving throw against the paralysis effect
At 41st level you gain a saving throw against the other effects with the exception of the weakest one

The Weakest effect always works if you fall under the appropriate hitdice, no save.

Use Magic Device, is in essence one of the most powerful skills in the game. No skill really matches it. Being able to climb is fine, using the wand of fly? Better. Being able to swim, wonderful, water breathing scroll? priceless. Obviously other skills are still worth while, but UMD is a skill that in and of itself can do pretty much everything...however it is also a skill that by its very nature requires lots of money!
Derges
05-21-07, 03:19 PM Ahh, I meant Caster level on the scroll but I guess I should proof read... Thanks for the quick and amazingly detailed response.
Nom
05-21-07, 08:44 PM Does this mean its just as hard to activate a wand of maximised empowered fireball as it is to activate a simple wand of Magic Missle, ie a dc 20 for both?Well, wands are limited to level 4 spells (max emp fireball is 9), but otherwise yes.

Anyone with a spell on the class list can use a wand or staff, even if they can't currently cast spells (eg Pal 1). UMD reflects that. It's effectively a DC 20 + 0 emulate class feature check.

In contrast, scrolls have a CL requirement, thus DC 20 + CL.
Wands: DC 20 if you know what they do
Wands: DC 25 if you don't know what they doThat's actually DC 25 plus DC 20 if you don't know what they do. DC 25 "activate blindly" gets around not knowing how to activate it, but you also need to meet the wand's innate pre-reqs (thus the DC 20 "use wand"). See "use scroll" and ability scores for a precedent for multiple UMD checks.
Malruhn
05-21-07, 10:23 PM Dazzer, may I say that your answer is great on several levels? Not only did it give more than asked, it was clear and concise.

In addition, you had EVERY chance to be a jerk and rip the guy apart for not reading the rules correctly, and instead, you took the high road.

Good on you!
Ace_of_time
05-22-07, 06:19 PM It is really easier than that there is two good feats that help here and both I think are in CAr. One lets you attune the wand so you don't have to roll UMD checks. The other is wand strike and it lets you hit your enemy with the wand causing 1d6 damage and then the wand goes off for full effect.
Phantos
05-30-07, 02:24 PM I'm having a problem understanding wand-use. If a level 1 sorceror bought a wand of magic missile cast at level 1, does he still need to beat a UMD check of 20? If so, isn't that a bit ridiculous for people like artificiers whose damage relies primarily on wand usage at lower levels, when their ranks are low in UMD?
Merestil Haye
05-30-07, 02:28 PM I'm having a problem understanding wand-use. If a level 1 sorceror bought a wand of magic missile cast at level 1, does he still need to beat a UMD check of 20? If so, isn't that a bit ridiculous for people like artificiers whose damage relies primarily on wand usage at lower levels, when their ranks are low in UMD?A sorcerer never needs to make any form of UMD check when trying to activate a wand with a spell on the Sorcerer class list.

UMD checks are for faking having the specific class ability. If you already have it you do not need to make a UMD check, and in fact you cannot choose to make one.
Phantos
05-30-07, 02:47 PM So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check?

If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek:

I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities.
Matthew77
05-30-07, 03:59 PM So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check?

No check needed. If the spell is on your class list, you can use a wand of it at any level.

If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek:

Correct. Just like a level 1 fighter could wield some ungodly +5 keen wounding, flaming burst greatsword.
Phantos
05-30-07, 04:01 PM Awesome. Thanks for the clarifications!
Salla
05-30-07, 04:22 PM Correct. Just like a level 1 fighter could wield some ungodly +5 keen wounding, flaming burst greatsword.

And just like the Level 1 Sorcerer example, this really just shouldn't happen. :)
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 01:24 AM So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check?

If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek:

I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities.

That why they cost so much for 4th level spell wands and why there are gold piece limit for towns.
Phrennzy
05-31-07, 10:36 AM I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities.

A sorcerer cannot use the wand of Cure Light Wounds because the spell is not on his spell list.

If he spent skill ranks in Use Magic Device, he could attempt to use the wand of Cure Light Wounds as detailed above.

To use a wand (without resorting to UMD) the spell must be on your Class Spell List. So every sorcerer can use any wand of any 4th level or lower spell on the Sorc/Wiz spell list.
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 06:09 PM A sorcerer cannot use the wand of Cure Light Wounds because the spell is not on his spell list.

If he spent skill ranks in Use Magic Device, he could attempt to use the wand of Cure Light Wounds as detailed above.

To use a wand (without resorting to UMD) the spell must be on your Class Spell List. So every sorcerer can use any wand of any 4th level or lower spell on the Sorc/Wiz spell list.

Thats why he said make a check. ( UMD check)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Derges 05-21-07, 02:59 PM	Reading through the skill description it says that its a Dc 20 to activate a wand, whereas a scroll has a Dc of 20 + spell level and the skill check to emulate an ability. Am I reading it correctly or is there a bit i'm missing? Does this mean its just as hard to activate a wand of maximised empowered fireball as it is to activate a simple wand of Magic Missle, ie a dc 20 for both? Thanks.
Dazzer 05-21-07, 03:10 PM	Not quite right, but close. Wands: DC 20 if you know what they do Wands: DC 25 if you don't know what they do Scrolls: DC 20 + CASTER LEVEL, not spell level. A 9th level spell scroll is therefore DC 37 minimum for Use Magic Device. Hardcore? Yes. However, Rogues + Wish Spells are feared for a reason. The reason behind this is that wands go to a max of 4th level spells. Whereas scrolls can be of any level, and generally have a higher caster level then a wand, in addition to the one use you need being cheaper if you only need it once. Staffs are where use magic device becomes completely haywire. Normally a staff works like thus. UMD Check - 15 = Your Stat Score for the Staff. For example, if I score 30 on UMD I operate the staff with an Int score of 15. UMD check - 20 = effective caster level of the staff. The same 30 would net me a caster level of 10 for the staff. UMD DC: 20 to make staff go, or 25 if I don't know what it does. There is no upper limit for the first two cases, so a rogue with +40 to Use Magic Device at 20th level, can easily score Caster Level 30, Int Score 35 for the purposes of Caster Level/DC. In Epic this skill becomes godly. A good fix, is that a person cannot go above double their stat score for the purposes of this particular UMD check. A rogue with 15 Int is Capped at a UMD'd int of 30. As for caster level, a good fix is that it caps at some formula to do with your level +3, or your level + 5, or perhaps even your level + 10. However, certain spells such as Blasphemy, Holy Word, and those Instant Death No Save spells that work along those lines are still horrendously overpowered. Dice Freaks offered a very nice fix for those spells. At 21st level you get a saving throw against the instant death effect. At 31st level you gain a saving throw against the paralysis effect At 41st level you gain a saving throw against the other effects with the exception of the weakest one The Weakest effect always works if you fall under the appropriate hitdice, no save. Use Magic Device, is in essence one of the most powerful skills in the game. No skill really matches it. Being able to climb is fine, using the wand of fly? Better. Being able to swim, wonderful, water breathing scroll? priceless. Obviously other skills are still worth while, but UMD is a skill that in and of itself can do pretty much everything...however it is also a skill that by its very nature requires lots of money!
Derges 05-21-07, 03:19 PM	Ahh, I meant Caster level on the scroll but I guess I should proof read... Thanks for the quick and amazingly detailed response.
Nom 05-21-07, 08:44 PM	Does this mean its just as hard to activate a wand of maximised empowered fireball as it is to activate a simple wand of Magic Missle, ie a dc 20 for both?Well, wands are limited to level 4 spells (max emp fireball is 9), but otherwise yes. Anyone with a spell on the class list can use a wand or staff, even if they can't currently cast spells (eg Pal 1). UMD reflects that. It's effectively a DC 20 + 0 emulate class feature check. In contrast, scrolls have a CL requirement, thus DC 20 + CL. Wands: DC 20 if you know what they do Wands: DC 25 if you don't know what they doThat's actually DC 25 plus DC 20 if you don't know what they do. DC 25 "activate blindly" gets around not knowing how to activate it, but you also need to meet the wand's innate pre-reqs (thus the DC 20 "use wand"). See "use scroll" and ability scores for a precedent for multiple UMD checks.
Malruhn 05-21-07, 10:23 PM	Dazzer, may I say that your answer is great on several levels? Not only did it give more than asked, it was clear and concise. In addition, you had EVERY chance to be a jerk and rip the guy apart for not reading the rules correctly, and instead, you took the high road. Good on you!
Ace_of_time 05-22-07, 06:19 PM	It is really easier than that there is two good feats that help here and both I think are in CAr. One lets you attune the wand so you don't have to roll UMD checks. The other is wand strike and it lets you hit your enemy with the wand causing 1d6 damage and then the wand goes off for full effect.
Phantos 05-30-07, 02:24 PM	I'm having a problem understanding wand-use. If a level 1 sorceror bought a wand of magic missile cast at level 1, does he still need to beat a UMD check of 20? If so, isn't that a bit ridiculous for people like artificiers whose damage relies primarily on wand usage at lower levels, when their ranks are low in UMD?
Merestil Haye 05-30-07, 02:28 PM	I'm having a problem understanding wand-use. If a level 1 sorceror bought a wand of magic missile cast at level 1, does he still need to beat a UMD check of 20? If so, isn't that a bit ridiculous for people like artificiers whose damage relies primarily on wand usage at lower levels, when their ranks are low in UMD?A sorcerer never needs to make any form of UMD check when trying to activate a wand with a spell on the Sorcerer class list. UMD checks are for faking having the specific class ability. If you already have it you do not need to make a UMD check, and in fact you cannot choose to make one.
Phantos 05-30-07, 02:47 PM	So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check? If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek: I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities.
Matthew77 05-30-07, 03:59 PM	So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check? No check needed. If the spell is on your class list, you can use a wand of it at any level. If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek: Correct. Just like a level 1 fighter could wield some ungodly +5 keen wounding, flaming burst greatsword.
Phantos 05-30-07, 04:01 PM	Awesome. Thanks for the clarifications!
Salla 05-30-07, 04:22 PM	Correct. Just like a level 1 fighter could wield some ungodly +5 keen wounding, flaming burst greatsword. And just like the Level 1 Sorcerer example, this really just shouldn't happen. :)
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 01:24 AM	So specifically on his class list, or current spell list? For example, a sorceror gets to learn only one level 3 spell when they first become available. Let's say I choose Fireball. It's then possible for me to buy a wand of Lightning Bolt and use it without a check, despite it not being on my spell-list? Or would I in fact need to make a UMD check? If not, then the situation seems flip-flopped... A level 1 sorcerer could weild some ungodly fireball wand! :eek: I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities. That why they cost so much for 4th level spell wands and why there are gold piece limit for towns.
Phrennzy 05-31-07, 10:36 AM	I also understand that he'd have to make the check to use a wand of, say, Cure Light Wounds. That makes sense to me. I'm just muddled over the other possibilities. A sorcerer cannot use the wand of Cure Light Wounds because the spell is not on his spell list. If he spent skill ranks in Use Magic Device, he could attempt to use the wand of Cure Light Wounds as detailed above. To use a wand (without resorting to UMD) the spell must be on your Class Spell List. So every sorcerer can use any wand of any 4th level or lower spell on the Sorc/Wiz spell list.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 06:09 PM	A sorcerer cannot use the wand of Cure Light Wounds because the spell is not on his spell list. If he spent skill ranks in Use Magic Device, he could attempt to use the wand of Cure Light Wounds as detailed above. To use a wand (without resorting to UMD) the spell must be on your Class Spell List. So every sorcerer can use any wand of any 4th level or lower spell on the Sorc/Wiz spell list. Thats why he said make a check. ( UMD check)