Warblade, Manoeuvres and Emerald Razor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warblade, Manoeuvres and Emerald Razor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tricky_bob
07-09-07, 02:28 PM I have a couple of questions...

Does anyone else think that the Warblades' ability to recover their manoeuvres as a swift action a bit broken-ish (Touch attack [Emerald Razor], recover with normal attack, touch attack, recover with normal attack, Touch attack, repeat rinse) Isn't that on par with Wraithstrike (SpC p.243) every other turn?

Emerald Razor: Is this attack resolved as a Touch Attack i.e. you just use your BAB+STR, or is it a normal attack (with weapon) that is treated as a Touch Attack?
andinel
07-09-07, 03:48 PM Keep in mind that you only have 1 swift action per turn, so you will only be able to recover 1 maneuver per turn, no matter what.
Empiro
07-09-07, 04:21 PM You only get a single attack with Emerald Razor, and at high levels it means that you're actually losing out on damage potential compared with a full attack. However, it is very powerful if you're moving and not taking a full attack, because there's no reason not to power attack for everything and deal a bucketload of damage.
DogBackward
07-09-07, 04:42 PM Keep in mind that you only have 1 swift action per turn, so you will only be able to recover 1 maneuver per turn, no matter what.
Warblade recovers all maneuvers with one swift action.

But keep in mind that the warblade doesn't exactly get a ton of maneuvers anyway, and you can't use a maneuver in the same round that you recover them. So, at most, you could get a single attack as a touch attack every other round, and a full attack action each round in between. It' snot all that bad, really.
Olav
07-09-07, 05:00 PM As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak). I see to rcall that you could not use a mauver for the standerd ation, or it may have been that i waited untill i used all my maunvers before refreshing.
tricky_bob
07-09-07, 06:26 PM As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak). I see to rcall that you could not use a mauver for the standerd ation, or it may have been that i waited untill i used all my maunvers before refreshing.

Yes as I stated you can only do the Manoeuver every other round, but still, a mini (one attack) Wraithstrike every other round seems a little too good.

Anyone on Emerald Razor ????
Tempest Stormwind
07-09-07, 06:44 PM Yes as I stated you can only do the Manoeuver every other round, but still, a mini (one attack) Wraithstrike every other round seems a little too good.

Anyone on Emerald Razor ????

In a word, it's not broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262)

Unless you consider raging barbarians broken as well.

(See the spreadsheet there in particular. I'm eventually going to extend it and publish it on Regdar's. The monster numbers are drawn from CritterFilter using actual values from hundreds of monsters. I mention "unacceptable AC" for an attack that drops your chance of being hit above 65%, which corresponds to a 50% chance of being hit (the bare minimum for a frontliner to be considered "acceptable" by many) adjusted for the difference between the best core medium armor and the best core heavy armor. Neither character has any feat besides Power Attack; you can add feats to both builds as need be.)

Using weighted average damage (average damage * probability of scoring a hit) and repeatable tactics (exactly what you're describing above), Emerald Razor is one of the warblade's stronger moves at the levels you get it, but it's only *very slightly* stronger than a raging barbarian at level 3, and at level 4 if he's using Punishing Stance. In most cases, the barbarian is above it, and above it by a significantly higher margin. By the time level 5 runs around he's got better options still.

Furthermore, this repeatable tactic has been done for years by psychic warriors. With Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Psychic Meditation, they can full attack on one round, resolving one attack as a touch attack due to Deep Impact, then refocus as a move action on the following round and deliver a regular attack. Alternatively, they can deliver a single touch attack every round if they attack once and then refocus. No one's calling the psychic warrior overpowered.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-09-07, 06:47 PM > As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a
> standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak).

No. It requires spending a swift action, then attacking (which can be a full attack) OR spending a standard action to flourish.
DogBackward
07-09-07, 07:05 PM Alright, having erased the knee-jerk sarcastic response, here's the nice version;

1. This takes up one space for Menauvers Known and one for Maneuvers Readied. This reduces the effectiveness in other ways, especially for the warblade.

2. If you use ER, you can't use another strike, and the Warblade doesn't have a whole lot of boosts. This combined with the fact that you can only ready so many maneuvers means your Warblade becomes a one-trick pony.

3. It's one attack, as a standard action. Especially at higher levels, that's nothing. Even at 6th level, you're giving up a second attack, with a reasonable chance of hitting, just to hit easier on the first one.

4. Yeah, I'm gonna say it. 95% of spells are touch attacks, and they tend to deal a whole lot more damage. While some argue that the per day thing balances this... it doesn't. When your mages are out of magic, what happens? You stop, and rest, and then move on. Even if you don't, higher-level mages still get a metric ton of spells per day.

This isn't really a big deal. Really.
Andrew
07-09-07, 09:08 PM Being able to make melee weapon attacks as touch attacks is indeed a big deal. Simply going from the expected 50/50 hit chance, it can easily up that to 19/1, upping average damage by almost 50% on it's own. However, that's not the fight here.

Emerald Razor is definitely one of the better maneuvers out there, but the recharge mechanic keeps it in check. With the exception of some very hard targets, it will almost always be better to use a round-by-round routine of Emerald Razor/Maneuver B/Maneuver C/Maneuver D/Attack & Refresh/Etc. than Emerald Razor/Attack & Refresh/Emerald Razor/Attack & Refresh/Etc. The style seems like button-mashing to me and is one reason I'm not a fan of 9 Swords, but it doesn't overwhelm.

There are a lot of other methods that make this kind of tactic usable every round, or every round in full attacks, such as flame blade, Deep Impact + Psionic Meditation [XPsi], or find the gap [SpC]. Generally it shouldn't overpower, but it is a wrench in encounters where an opponent is expected to be too armored to engage and could encourage a character to fight against a foe that clearly outmatches them.
tricky_bob
07-11-07, 06:42 PM Thank you all for your input.

Having the benefit of other peoples experiences is a great leveler for things like the ER trick.

Peace and :)
ravenshrike
07-12-07, 03:42 PM The style seems like button-mashing to me and is one reason I'm not a fan of 9 Swords, but it doesn't overwhelm.

And what do you consider the regular fighter tactics to be? The only difference is that the fighter is an NES controller and the warblade is a Gamecube controller.
Empiro
07-17-07, 04:32 AM In a word, it's not broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262)

Unless you consider raging barbarians broken as well.

(See the spreadsheet there in particular. I'm eventually going to extend it and publish it on Regdar's. The monster numbers are drawn from CritterFilter using actual values from hundreds of monsters. I mention "unacceptable AC" for an attack that drops your chance of being hit above 65%, which corresponds to a 50% chance of being hit (the bare minimum for a frontliner to be considered "acceptable" by many) adjusted for the difference between the best core medium armor and the best core heavy armor. Neither character has any feat besides Power Attack; you can add feats to both builds as need be.)

Using weighted average damage (average damage * probability of scoring a hit) and repeatable tactics (exactly what you're describing above), Emerald Razor is one of the warblade's stronger moves at the levels you get it, but it's only *very slightly* stronger than a raging barbarian at level 3, and at level 4 if he's using Punishing Stance. In most cases, the barbarian is above it, and above it by a significantly higher margin. By the time level 5 runs around he's got better options still.

Furthermore, this repeatable tactic has been done for years by psychic warriors. With Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Psychic Meditation, they can full attack on one round, resolving one attack as a touch attack due to Deep Impact, then refocus as a move action on the following round and deliver a regular attack. Alternatively, they can deliver a single touch attack every round if they attack once and then refocus. No one's calling the psychic warrior overpowered.

While I like the ToB very much and think the ToB is not too powerful for use in a normal game, I still think the classes are significantly better than any core melee class. The power of a class isn't all about damage. Barbarians are about nothing but damage, so they tend to win out from a pure damage standpoint.

However, if that same barbarian was hit by a fear spell, he'd probably go running off like a little girl (or boy), while the Warblade would probably laugh it off with a concentration check.

In addition, stances like Leading the Charge do more than simply making you do more damage. It also makes your party cleric or druid or whatever else do more damage when they charge. Maneuvers like White Raven Tactics can give your party spell caster an extra full round action. White Raven Strike also would let your rogue take a full round's worth of sneak attack without having to move to flank (and possibly giving up a full attack or putting himself in harm's way), not to mention making dexterous enemies easier to hit.

As a final, minor quibble, until level 12, Barbarians have fewer than 4 rages a day, which means that if the DM is running the recommended number of encounters, then in at least one battle, Barbarians can't be raging.
Tempest Stormwind
07-17-07, 04:31 PM While I like the ToB very much and think the ToB is not too powerful for use in a normal game, I still think the classes are significantly better than any core melee class.It isn't the ToB's fault that the core classes suck at their job even in core. The power of a class isn't all about damage. Barbarians are about nothing but damage, so they tend to win out from a pure damage standpoint.If you'd follow the link in that post, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I was not speaking about class power at all. I was attempting to dispel the myth that "the warblade dishes out too much damage" by comparing it to a core barbarian with minimal build impact.However, if that same barbarian was hit by a fear spell, he'd probably go running off like a little girl (or boy), while the Warblade would probably laugh it off with a concentration check.Actually, barbarians have a more Wisdom-based skill list and no reason whatsoever for Intelligence (meaning that in the standard elite array, they are more likely to assign a bigger value to Wisdom) and gain a bonus to Will saves during a rage. Furthermore, not all warblades have the room to focus on Diamond Mind, and even those who do will have problems if they've used another counter or if there's a second Will save involved (or if the warblade didn't want to eat a precious readied maneuver with that particular counter, or if he didn't max Concentration out).

Note that I'm not saying the barbarian makes it every time or that the warblade fails every time, just that the two classes are different.

In addition, stances like Leading the Charge do more than simply making you do more damage. It also makes your party cleric or druid or whatever else do more damage when they charge.Again, that example was based on the WARBLADE VS BARBARIAN IN TERMS OF MELEE DAMAGE OUTPUT ONLY. I was not comparing the impact on your party. The fact that the barbarian's not a very good team player isn't the fault of the tome.Maneuvers like White Raven Tactics can give your party spell caster an extra full round action.There are a handful of truly problematic maneuvers with that one topping the list. However, there are PILES of problem spells in the PHB alone. I'd say that it's easier to fix one maneuver than a few dozen spells.White Raven Strike also would let your rogue take a full round's worth of sneak attack without having to move to flank (and possibly giving up a full attack or putting himself in harm's way), not to mention making dexterous enemies easier to hit.Which was beyond the scope of my comparison, although the impact that it has on the single character is accounted for.

As a final, minor quibble, until level 12, Barbarians have fewer than 4 rages a day, which means that if the DM is running the recommended number of encounters, then in at least one battle, Barbarians can't be raging.Which I acually address had you followed the link and read the thread. This is only a difference of design philosophies -- the years-old per-day paradigm vs the per-encounter paradigm. Note that all per-encounter Rage variants, like the one in the PHB2, have an identical effect on damage output.

It seems like you took my entire comparison out of context *and* replied off-topic anyway. This thread was about Emerald Razor breaking the warblade (note that Emerald Razor has no other effect except making an attack easier to land). I demonstrate that this is not the case unless you consider core-only barbarians dishing out too much damage. That is all.
Empiro
07-17-07, 05:12 PM I aplogize if you explained in the main thread, but you must agree that the thread was quite long. However, specifically in the post you provided, you made no mention of any of those points. Even if we restrict the question to, "can the warblade outdamage the barbarian at level 6", the answer isn't "no", but instead: "on a 4 encounter day, about half the time, the other half, the barbarian wins because of rage."
Tempest Stormwind
07-17-07, 06:58 PM I aplogize if you explained in the main thread, but you must agree that the thread was quite long. However, specifically in the post you provided, you made no mention of any of those points. Even if we restrict the question to, "can the warblade outdamage the barbarian at level 6", the answer isn't "no", but instead: "on a 4 encounter day, about half the time, the other half, the barbarian wins because of rage."

Which I explained earlier (and in the other thread, more eloquently) -- this is entirely an artifact of per-day balancing paradigms, such as those the current editions of the rules were written on. Published per-encounter rage rules have no daily limit and have *exactly* the same impact on the offensive output of the barbarian (+4 Strength and nothing else offensive).

Now, on a related note, if you look at a barbarian without Rage (his primary class feature), you have to look at a warblade without his maneuvers (his primary class feature). Since they were balanced on different philosophies, they will be available differing numbers of times -- unless you use per-encounter raging, as I noted above. Not surprisingly, a non-raging barbarian and a non-manuever-using warblade turn out identical when restricted to core+ToB. (If you extend it to include other noncore sources, even without feats, the barbarian shoots ahead at level 6 in situations where a charge is possible, courtesy of Complete Champion's pounce ability. I leave that out of the calculations I did since it isn't core. I also consider it unsporting.)

I'm not going to touch on Extra Rage (which completely nullifies your argument, granting the barbarian 4 extra rages per day and having no prerequisites besides Rage) because it's an extra feat, and neither of these two sample characters have more than one feat (in an effort to minimize the impact of anything but the class.) This also doesn't touch on the fact that it isn't 4 enounters per day but rather four encounters of equal CR per day, and it can in fact have fewer encounters of higher CR and you're fine.

The answer to "does the warblade deal more damage than the barbarian at level 6" is "no, if the barbarian is raging". That is all you can say about it.

However, the most telling thing of all is to look at exactly how far ahead the maneuver-using warblade is over a NON-raging barbarian in those circumstances. At level 6, without Punishing Stance, he's a mere 3.084 points of weighed damage per round ahead of the barbarian -- which amounts to a mere 4.54% of the monster's HP per round. Note that at level 6 the warblade is likely to use a stance other than Punishing Stance, because Punishing Stance is weak and penalizes his AC. However, if he doesn't use that other stance and instead uses Punishing Stance, he's 8.4345 weighted damage per round ahead of the warblade -- 12.43% more of the monster's HP than the barbarian.

Note that the base damage the barbarian puts out without a rage over two rounds is 42.64%, averaging 21.32%, which according to this rubric (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=861084) is in the "optimal" range. The increase over this from the non-Punishing-Stance warblade raises it to 23.57% (still in "optimal") and the Punishing-Stance warblade raises it to 27.53% (*still* in "optimal"). I'd say that the second increase is significant (the first probably isn't), but the overall impact on the lifespan of the monster is minimal.

Oh, and that also doesn't include critical hits, mostly because it was a monumental task even without them. However, since a greatsword threatens a hit on 2 numbers and only naturally misses on 1, threats are more likely than automatic misses (especially since at every level I checked, neither character needed as high as a 19 to hit...).
Furthermore, thanks to his higher attack bonus on every attack, the barbarian is more likely to confirm critical hits unless particular maneuvers are employed (Bonecrusher, for instance); this point doesn't apply to the non-raging barbarian who is no better or worse off than the warblade (barring maneuvers like Bonecrusher).
Finally, since bonus damage from maneuvers isn't multiplied*, it means the warblade's (fewer but individually stronger) attacks benefit from the same net increase that the non-raging barbarian's individual attacks do -- namely, +2d6+(1.5Str)+2xPA (rage increases this even more).
Since the barbarian is making more attacks than the warblade by level 6, this means the barbarian is statistically going to benefit more from critical hits than the warblade even without rage. With rage, the bonus damage from each crit goes up and the likelyhood of confirming a crit goes up, suggesting an even bigger impact. I can't speak on how much without crunching the numbers, though.

Suffice it to say, I don't think the warblade dishes out too much damage compared to core. They're just more fun to play. Even though *all* of this is off-topic.

* Note: this *is* the official stance, even though it contradicts the usual "damage dice" requirement; I disagree with it and houserule otherwise myself, but that doesn't change the result too much since most of these maneuvers deal bonus damage in the form of dice anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tricky_bob 07-09-07, 02:28 PM	I have a couple of questions... Does anyone else think that the Warblades' ability to recover their manoeuvres as a swift action a bit broken-ish (Touch attack [Emerald Razor], recover with normal attack, touch attack, recover with normal attack, Touch attack, repeat rinse) Isn't that on par with Wraithstrike (SpC p.243) every other turn? Emerald Razor: Is this attack resolved as a Touch Attack i.e. you just use your BAB+STR, or is it a normal attack (with weapon) that is treated as a Touch Attack?
andinel 07-09-07, 03:48 PM	Keep in mind that you only have 1 swift action per turn, so you will only be able to recover 1 maneuver per turn, no matter what.
Empiro 07-09-07, 04:21 PM	You only get a single attack with Emerald Razor, and at high levels it means that you're actually losing out on damage potential compared with a full attack. However, it is very powerful if you're moving and not taking a full attack, because there's no reason not to power attack for everything and deal a bucketload of damage.
DogBackward 07-09-07, 04:42 PM	Keep in mind that you only have 1 swift action per turn, so you will only be able to recover 1 maneuver per turn, no matter what. Warblade recovers all maneuvers with one swift action. But keep in mind that the warblade doesn't exactly get a ton of maneuvers anyway, and you can't use a maneuver in the same round that you recover them. So, at most, you could get a single attack as a touch attack every other round, and a full attack action each round in between. It' snot all that bad, really.
Olav 07-09-07, 05:00 PM	As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak). I see to rcall that you could not use a mauver for the standerd ation, or it may have been that i waited untill i used all my maunvers before refreshing.
tricky_bob 07-09-07, 06:26 PM	As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak). I see to rcall that you could not use a mauver for the standerd ation, or it may have been that i waited untill i used all my maunvers before refreshing. Yes as I stated you can only do the Manoeuver every other round, but still, a mini (one attack) Wraithstrike every other round seems a little too good. Anyone on Emerald Razor ????
Tempest Stormwind 07-09-07, 06:44 PM	Yes as I stated you can only do the Manoeuver every other round, but still, a mini (one attack) Wraithstrike every other round seems a little too good. Anyone on Emerald Razor ???? In a word, it's not broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262) Unless you consider raging barbarians broken as well. (See the spreadsheet there in particular. I'm eventually going to extend it and publish it on Regdar's. The monster numbers are drawn from CritterFilter using actual values from hundreds of monsters. I mention "unacceptable AC" for an attack that drops your chance of being hit above 65%, which corresponds to a 50% chance of being hit (the bare minimum for a frontliner to be considered "acceptable" by many) adjusted for the difference between the best core medium armor and the best core heavy armor. Neither character has any feat besides Power Attack; you can add feats to both builds as need be.) Using weighted average damage (average damage * probability of scoring a hit) and repeatable tactics (exactly what you're describing above), Emerald Razor is one of the warblade's stronger moves at the levels you get it, but it's only very slightly stronger than a raging barbarian at level 3, and at level 4 if he's using Punishing Stance. In most cases, the barbarian is above it, and above it by a significantly higher margin. By the time level 5 runs around he's got better options still. Furthermore, this repeatable tactic has been done for years by psychic warriors. With Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Psychic Meditation, they can full attack on one round, resolving one attack as a touch attack due to Deep Impact, then refocus as a move action on the following round and deliver a regular attack. Alternatively, they can deliver a single touch attack every round if they attack once and then refocus. No one's calling the psychic warrior overpowered.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-09-07, 06:47 PM	> As i remember the warblade, refreshing requires a swift action, then taking a > standerd action (be it a flourish with the wepon or an attak). No. It requires spending a swift action, then attacking (which can be a full attack) OR spending a standard action to flourish.
DogBackward 07-09-07, 07:05 PM	Alright, having erased the knee-jerk sarcastic response, here's the nice version; 1. This takes up one space for Menauvers Known and one for Maneuvers Readied. This reduces the effectiveness in other ways, especially for the warblade. 2. If you use ER, you can't use another strike, and the Warblade doesn't have a whole lot of boosts. This combined with the fact that you can only ready so many maneuvers means your Warblade becomes a one-trick pony. 3. It's one attack, as a standard action. Especially at higher levels, that's nothing. Even at 6th level, you're giving up a second attack, with a reasonable chance of hitting, just to hit easier on the first one. 4. Yeah, I'm gonna say it. 95% of spells are touch attacks, and they tend to deal a whole lot more damage. While some argue that the per day thing balances this... it doesn't. When your mages are out of magic, what happens? You stop, and rest, and then move on. Even if you don't, higher-level mages still get a metric ton of spells per day. This isn't really a big deal. Really.
Andrew 07-09-07, 09:08 PM	Being able to make melee weapon attacks as touch attacks is indeed a big deal. Simply going from the expected 50/50 hit chance, it can easily up that to 19/1, upping average damage by almost 50% on it's own. However, that's not the fight here. Emerald Razor is definitely one of the better maneuvers out there, but the recharge mechanic keeps it in check. With the exception of some very hard targets, it will almost always be better to use a round-by-round routine of Emerald Razor/Maneuver B/Maneuver C/Maneuver D/Attack & Refresh/Etc. than Emerald Razor/Attack & Refresh/Emerald Razor/Attack & Refresh/Etc. The style seems like button-mashing to me and is one reason I'm not a fan of 9 Swords, but it doesn't overwhelm. There are a lot of other methods that make this kind of tactic usable every round, or every round in full attacks, such as flame blade, Deep Impact + Psionic Meditation [XPsi], or find the gap [SpC]. Generally it shouldn't overpower, but it is a wrench in encounters where an opponent is expected to be too armored to engage and could encourage a character to fight against a foe that clearly outmatches them.
tricky_bob 07-11-07, 06:42 PM	Thank you all for your input. Having the benefit of other peoples experiences is a great leveler for things like the ER trick. Peace and :)
ravenshrike 07-12-07, 03:42 PM	The style seems like button-mashing to me and is one reason I'm not a fan of 9 Swords, but it doesn't overwhelm. And what do you consider the regular fighter tactics to be? The only difference is that the fighter is an NES controller and the warblade is a Gamecube controller.
Empiro 07-17-07, 04:32 AM	In a word, it's not broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12990532&postcount=262) Unless you consider raging barbarians broken as well. (See the spreadsheet there in particular. I'm eventually going to extend it and publish it on Regdar's. The monster numbers are drawn from CritterFilter using actual values from hundreds of monsters. I mention "unacceptable AC" for an attack that drops your chance of being hit above 65%, which corresponds to a 50% chance of being hit (the bare minimum for a frontliner to be considered "acceptable" by many) adjusted for the difference between the best core medium armor and the best core heavy armor. Neither character has any feat besides Power Attack; you can add feats to both builds as need be.) Using weighted average damage (average damage * probability of scoring a hit) and repeatable tactics (exactly what you're describing above), Emerald Razor is one of the warblade's stronger moves at the levels you get it, but it's only very slightly stronger than a raging barbarian at level 3, and at level 4 if he's using Punishing Stance. In most cases, the barbarian is above it, and above it by a significantly higher margin. By the time level 5 runs around he's got better options still. Furthermore, this repeatable tactic has been done for years by psychic warriors. With Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, and Psychic Meditation, they can full attack on one round, resolving one attack as a touch attack due to Deep Impact, then refocus as a move action on the following round and deliver a regular attack. Alternatively, they can deliver a single touch attack every round if they attack once and then refocus. No one's calling the psychic warrior overpowered. While I like the ToB very much and think the ToB is not too powerful for use in a normal game, I still think the classes are significantly better than any core melee class. The power of a class isn't all about damage. Barbarians are about nothing but damage, so they tend to win out from a pure damage standpoint. However, if that same barbarian was hit by a fear spell, he'd probably go running off like a little girl (or boy), while the Warblade would probably laugh it off with a concentration check. In addition, stances like Leading the Charge do more than simply making you do more damage. It also makes your party cleric or druid or whatever else do more damage when they charge. Maneuvers like White Raven Tactics can give your party spell caster an extra full round action. White Raven Strike also would let your rogue take a full round's worth of sneak attack without having to move to flank (and possibly giving up a full attack or putting himself in harm's way), not to mention making dexterous enemies easier to hit. As a final, minor quibble, until level 12, Barbarians have fewer than 4 rages a day, which means that if the DM is running the recommended number of encounters, then in at least one battle, Barbarians can't be raging.
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 04:31 PM	While I like the ToB very much and think the ToB is not too powerful for use in a normal game, I still think the classes are significantly better than any core melee class.It isn't the ToB's fault that the core classes suck at their job even in core. The power of a class isn't all about damage. Barbarians are about nothing but damage, so they tend to win out from a pure damage standpoint.If you'd follow the link in that post, I thought I made it abundantly clear that I was not speaking about class power at all. I was attempting to dispel the myth that "the warblade dishes out too much damage" by comparing it to a core barbarian with minimal build impact.However, if that same barbarian was hit by a fear spell, he'd probably go running off like a little girl (or boy), while the Warblade would probably laugh it off with a concentration check.Actually, barbarians have a more Wisdom-based skill list and no reason whatsoever for Intelligence (meaning that in the standard elite array, they are more likely to assign a bigger value to Wisdom) and gain a bonus to Will saves during a rage. Furthermore, not all warblades have the room to focus on Diamond Mind, and even those who do will have problems if they've used another counter or if there's a second Will save involved (or if the warblade didn't want to eat a precious readied maneuver with that particular counter, or if he didn't max Concentration out). Note that I'm not saying the barbarian makes it every time or that the warblade fails every time, just that the two classes are different. In addition, stances like Leading the Charge do more than simply making you do more damage. It also makes your party cleric or druid or whatever else do more damage when they charge.Again, that example was based on the WARBLADE VS BARBARIAN IN TERMS OF MELEE DAMAGE OUTPUT ONLY. I was not comparing the impact on your party. The fact that the barbarian's not a very good team player isn't the fault of the tome.Maneuvers like White Raven Tactics can give your party spell caster an extra full round action.There are a handful of truly problematic maneuvers with that one topping the list. However, there are PILES of problem spells in the PHB alone. I'd say that it's easier to fix one maneuver than a few dozen spells.White Raven Strike also would let your rogue take a full round's worth of sneak attack without having to move to flank (and possibly giving up a full attack or putting himself in harm's way), not to mention making dexterous enemies easier to hit.Which was beyond the scope of my comparison, although the impact that it has on the single character is accounted for. As a final, minor quibble, until level 12, Barbarians have fewer than 4 rages a day, which means that if the DM is running the recommended number of encounters, then in at least one battle, Barbarians can't be raging.Which I acually address had you followed the link and read the thread. This is only a difference of design philosophies -- the years-old per-day paradigm vs the per-encounter paradigm. Note that all per-encounter Rage variants, like the one in the PHB2, have an identical effect on damage output. It seems like you took my entire comparison out of context and replied off-topic anyway. This thread was about Emerald Razor breaking the warblade (note that Emerald Razor has no other effect except making an attack easier to land). I demonstrate that this is not the case unless you consider core-only barbarians dishing out too much damage. That is all.
Empiro 07-17-07, 05:12 PM	I aplogize if you explained in the main thread, but you must agree that the thread was quite long. However, specifically in the post you provided, you made no mention of any of those points. Even if we restrict the question to, "can the warblade outdamage the barbarian at level 6", the answer isn't "no", but instead: "on a 4 encounter day, about half the time, the other half, the barbarian wins because of rage."
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 06:58 PM	I aplogize if you explained in the main thread, but you must agree that the thread was quite long. However, specifically in the post you provided, you made no mention of any of those points. Even if we restrict the question to, "can the warblade outdamage the barbarian at level 6", the answer isn't "no", but instead: "on a 4 encounter day, about half the time, the other half, the barbarian wins because of rage." Which I explained earlier (and in the other thread, more eloquently) -- this is entirely an artifact of per-day balancing paradigms, such as those the current editions of the rules were written on. Published per-encounter rage rules have no daily limit and have exactly the same impact on the offensive output of the barbarian (+4 Strength and nothing else offensive). Now, on a related note, if you look at a barbarian without Rage (his primary class feature), you have to look at a warblade without his maneuvers (his primary class feature). Since they were balanced on different philosophies, they will be available differing numbers of times -- unless you use per-encounter raging, as I noted above. Not surprisingly, a non-raging barbarian and a non-manuever-using warblade turn out identical when restricted to core+ToB. (If you extend it to include other noncore sources, even without feats, the barbarian shoots ahead at level 6 in situations where a charge is possible, courtesy of Complete Champion's pounce ability. I leave that out of the calculations I did since it isn't core. I also consider it unsporting.) I'm not going to touch on Extra Rage (which completely nullifies your argument, granting the barbarian 4 extra rages per day and having no prerequisites besides Rage) because it's an extra feat, and neither of these two sample characters have more than one feat (in an effort to minimize the impact of anything but the class.) This also doesn't touch on the fact that it isn't 4 enounters per day but rather four encounters of equal CR per day, and it can in fact have fewer encounters of higher CR and you're fine. The answer to "does the warblade deal more damage than the barbarian at level 6" is "no, if the barbarian is raging". That is all you can say about it. However, the most telling thing of all is to look at exactly how far ahead the maneuver-using warblade is over a NON-raging barbarian in those circumstances. At level 6, without Punishing Stance, he's a mere 3.084 points of weighed damage per round ahead of the barbarian -- which amounts to a mere 4.54% of the monster's HP per round. Note that at level 6 the warblade is likely to use a stance other than Punishing Stance, because Punishing Stance is weak and penalizes his AC. However, if he doesn't use that other stance and instead uses Punishing Stance, he's 8.4345 weighted damage per round ahead of the warblade -- 12.43% more of the monster's HP than the barbarian. Note that the base damage the barbarian puts out without a rage over two rounds is 42.64%, averaging 21.32%, which according to this rubric (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=861084) is in the "optimal" range. The increase over this from the non-Punishing-Stance warblade raises it to 23.57% (still in "optimal") and the Punishing-Stance warblade raises it to 27.53% (still in "optimal"). I'd say that the second increase is significant (the first probably isn't), but the overall impact on the lifespan of the monster is minimal. Oh, and that also doesn't include critical hits, mostly because it was a monumental task even without them. However, since a greatsword threatens a hit on 2 numbers and only naturally misses on 1, threats are more likely than automatic misses (especially since at every level I checked, neither character needed as high as a 19 to hit...). Furthermore, thanks to his higher attack bonus on every attack, the barbarian is more likely to confirm critical hits unless particular maneuvers are employed (Bonecrusher, for instance); this point doesn't apply to the non-raging barbarian who is no better or worse off than the warblade (barring maneuvers like Bonecrusher). Finally, since bonus damage from maneuvers isn't multiplied, it means the warblade's (fewer but individually stronger) attacks benefit from the same net increase that the non-raging barbarian's individual attacks do -- namely, +2d6+(1.5Str)+2xPA (rage increases this even more). Since the barbarian is making more attacks than the warblade by level 6, this means the barbarian is statistically going to benefit more from critical hits than the warblade even without rage. With rage, the bonus damage from each crit goes up and the likelyhood of confirming a crit goes up, suggesting an even bigger impact. I can't speak on how much without crunching the numbers, though. Suffice it to say, I don't think the warblade dishes out too much damage compared to core. They're just more fun to play. Even though all* of this is off-topic. * Note: this is the official stance, even though it contradicts the usual "damage dice" requirement; I disagree with it and houserule otherwise myself, but that doesn't change the result too much since most of these maneuvers deal bonus damage in the form of dice anyway.