Warshapers [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Warshapers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rikimaru75
03-03-07, 10:06 PM My session last night has caused me to pose a question regarding warshapers.

Regarding their Morphic Weapons ability...do they have the ability to grow extra appendages ad infinitum? or is there a limit?

At one point, my wildshaped druid had over 8 tentacles growing out of his wild shaped form, and I was a little confused. Also, what are the penalties that I should give?

Last night, I ruled that since he didn't have the multi-attack feat, he suffered the -5 penalty on each of his extra tentacles/appendages.

Also, when he levels up, then could he takes multi-attack as a feat so that he can utilize it when he does this again?
chitzk0i
03-03-07, 10:57 PM A warshaper can only grow one attack of each type. That is, one tail slap, one tentacle slap, one sting, etc. If your form doesn't have claws, you can only grow one claw. Also, I wouldn't let a warshaper take multiattack unless he has the natural attacks in his normal form.
rikimaru75
03-03-07, 11:42 PM So therefore, so long as this druid is wildshaped, he could, in theory have one of practically every type of natural attack?

1 Tail
1 Talon
1 Claw
1 Tentacle
1 Horn
etc etc?
(Of course, the would each cost a move action to form.)

So he could grow multiple appendages (Just depends on how creative he gets, huh?)?

I am also inclined to tell him no to Multi-attack. (He was originally a gnome, after all, so no extra appendages there.)
Sildatorak
03-04-07, 01:10 AM So therefore, so long as this druid is wildshaped, he could, in theory have one of practically every type of natural attack?Don't forget 1 intenstine loop.

Personally, I would just rule that the warshaper can't make new limbs, only weaponize the limbs that are already there. This is consistent with the examples and helps keep the number of attacks somewhat reasonable. I do allow multi-attack to work, though.
olshanski_home
03-04-07, 08:09 AM In my opinion, warshaper is an example of a hastily written class that was poorly conceived, poorly written, and it is an example of an absolute failure of playtesting.

The way it is written, it certainly appears to allow appendages to be grown ad infinitum. Even if you were to limit it to just growing limbs like creatures that exist in the MM, you are still going to have to deal with claws like a behir, heads like a hydra, tentacles like a giant squid, mouths like a gibbering mouther, tongue attacks, etcetera. You are still going to end up with 40+ natural attacks without trying very hard.

A warshaper can only grow one attack of each type. That is, one tail slap, one tentacle slap, one sting, etc. If your form doesn't have claws, you can only grow one claw. Also, I wouldn't let a warshaper take multiattack unless he has the natural attacks in his normal form.There is no rule that says you have to have the abilities in your natural form to take the feat. You can take the feat dodge if you have a dex of 13 granted by a dex-enhancing item. (assuming your "natural" dexterity is insufficient).
rikimaru75
03-04-07, 08:43 AM You've managed to change my mind about allowing multi-attack. I basically say that since he is almost always typically in wild shape form, he could utilize it.

How would the multiple appendage work for multiple attacks?

Was I right in saying that each of the 'non-normal' suffer a -5 penalty to attack? (since he does not have Multi-attack just yet)

With regards to the number of appendages he could 'grow', I am thinking about limiting it equal to the number of Warshape levels he has. Do you think that seems reasonable?
Sildatorak
03-04-07, 11:15 AM I jut went and re-read the warshaper entry and I think it is arguable that morphic weapons only allows 1 additional natural weapon at a time, but it is just crappily written.

As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage
<snip>
For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettein could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack <snip>
A warshaper can change natural weapons as often as it likes<snip>Bolded the parts to point out where it suggests only 1 weapon at a time.

Though they keep referring to growing natural weapons in plural, every example and bit of direct description points toward allowing 1 additional natural weapon at a time. Perhaps they thought the plural would avoid confusing people about whether they could grow different weapons at different times?
rikimaru75
03-04-07, 11:42 AM I am liking the 1 extra appendage per Warshaper level idea, honestly. The PC doesn't have much else anyway from the prestige class. It will also take awhile to form all those weapons, and by the time that happens, bad stuff for the PC would occur or the battle would be over. At least this way, if the PC wanted to act like a marilith with 6 attacks (1 primary), then they could with crazy penalties. After all, the Base Attack of a Druid isn't all that great...or maybe I am just naive to some point.

Anyone know the bonuses to grappling for extra arms off-hand?
olshanski_home
03-04-07, 04:35 PM I think 1 extra appendage ever is already powerful enough:

As far as not getting enough from the prestige class already? what are you kidding?! The class gets an untyped +4 to STR and CON, which is huge, and it gets fast healing and immunity to critical hits, stunning, and sneak attacks. Those are a hefty suite of abilities, with the bulk of them coming after only 2 levels in the prestige class.
primemover003
03-04-07, 05:09 PM Yeah I made the mistake of letting the Ranger character in my last campaign use a cursed item that caused Lycanthrope (weretiger) to become a warshaper. He's already enough of a powergamer but Warshaper made him immune to almost everything I threw at him. Throw in Steadfast Determination and the only thing I had left in my bag of tricks would be to drop an AMF on him to revert him to his humanoid form.

It was a rough planning any major combat with him involved. You can only use Enervation, an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, and Energy Drain so many times before the tactic gets a little silly.
rikimaru75
03-04-07, 05:12 PM I don't know what I was thinking earlier. Guess I will have to make the changes accordingly.
Marcus Majarra
03-04-07, 07:15 PM There's another reason why the warshaper cannot grow more than one weapon at a time: the morphic weapons ability doesn't stack with itself. The effect merely overlaps every time you use it.
rikimaru75
03-05-07, 08:17 AM I remember reading in the same passage that the morphic weapon also provides improved natural weapon damage. Does he only get one or the other?
chitzk0i
03-05-07, 01:25 PM I had read it as only allowing one or the other, but that may or may not have any basis in reality. Unfortunately, I'm AFB ATM.
Marcus Majarra
03-05-07, 04:35 PM The warshaper using morphic weapons gets to either create a natural weapon for himself or enhance a single natural weapon he already has.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rikimaru75 03-03-07, 10:06 PM	My session last night has caused me to pose a question regarding warshapers. Regarding their Morphic Weapons ability...do they have the ability to grow extra appendages ad infinitum? or is there a limit? At one point, my wildshaped druid had over 8 tentacles growing out of his wild shaped form, and I was a little confused. Also, what are the penalties that I should give? Last night, I ruled that since he didn't have the multi-attack feat, he suffered the -5 penalty on each of his extra tentacles/appendages. Also, when he levels up, then could he takes multi-attack as a feat so that he can utilize it when he does this again?
chitzk0i 03-03-07, 10:57 PM	A warshaper can only grow one attack of each type. That is, one tail slap, one tentacle slap, one sting, etc. If your form doesn't have claws, you can only grow one claw. Also, I wouldn't let a warshaper take multiattack unless he has the natural attacks in his normal form.
rikimaru75 03-03-07, 11:42 PM	So therefore, so long as this druid is wildshaped, he could, in theory have one of practically every type of natural attack? 1 Tail 1 Talon 1 Claw 1 Tentacle 1 Horn etc etc? (Of course, the would each cost a move action to form.) So he could grow multiple appendages (Just depends on how creative he gets, huh?)? I am also inclined to tell him no to Multi-attack. (He was originally a gnome, after all, so no extra appendages there.)
Sildatorak 03-04-07, 01:10 AM	So therefore, so long as this druid is wildshaped, he could, in theory have one of practically every type of natural attack?Don't forget 1 intenstine loop. Personally, I would just rule that the warshaper can't make new limbs, only weaponize the limbs that are already there. This is consistent with the examples and helps keep the number of attacks somewhat reasonable. I do allow multi-attack to work, though.
olshanski_home 03-04-07, 08:09 AM	In my opinion, warshaper is an example of a hastily written class that was poorly conceived, poorly written, and it is an example of an absolute failure of playtesting. The way it is written, it certainly appears to allow appendages to be grown ad infinitum. Even if you were to limit it to just growing limbs like creatures that exist in the MM, you are still going to have to deal with claws like a behir, heads like a hydra, tentacles like a giant squid, mouths like a gibbering mouther, tongue attacks, etcetera. You are still going to end up with 40+ natural attacks without trying very hard. A warshaper can only grow one attack of each type. That is, one tail slap, one tentacle slap, one sting, etc. If your form doesn't have claws, you can only grow one claw. Also, I wouldn't let a warshaper take multiattack unless he has the natural attacks in his normal form.There is no rule that says you have to have the abilities in your natural form to take the feat. You can take the feat dodge if you have a dex of 13 granted by a dex-enhancing item. (assuming your "natural" dexterity is insufficient).
rikimaru75 03-04-07, 08:43 AM	You've managed to change my mind about allowing multi-attack. I basically say that since he is almost always typically in wild shape form, he could utilize it. How would the multiple appendage work for multiple attacks? Was I right in saying that each of the 'non-normal' suffer a -5 penalty to attack? (since he does not have Multi-attack just yet) With regards to the number of appendages he could 'grow', I am thinking about limiting it equal to the number of Warshape levels he has. Do you think that seems reasonable?
Sildatorak 03-04-07, 11:15 AM	I jut went and re-read the warshaper entry and I think it is arguable that morphic weapons only allows 1 additional natural weapon at a time, but it is just crappily written. As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage <snip> For example, a warshaper polymorphed into an ettein could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack <snip> A warshaper can change natural weapons as often as it likes<snip>Bolded the parts to point out where it suggests only 1 weapon at a time. Though they keep referring to growing natural weapons in plural, every example and bit of direct description points toward allowing 1 additional natural weapon at a time. Perhaps they thought the plural would avoid confusing people about whether they could grow different weapons at different times?
rikimaru75 03-04-07, 11:42 AM	I am liking the 1 extra appendage per Warshaper level idea, honestly. The PC doesn't have much else anyway from the prestige class. It will also take awhile to form all those weapons, and by the time that happens, bad stuff for the PC would occur or the battle would be over. At least this way, if the PC wanted to act like a marilith with 6 attacks (1 primary), then they could with crazy penalties. After all, the Base Attack of a Druid isn't all that great...or maybe I am just naive to some point. Anyone know the bonuses to grappling for extra arms off-hand?
olshanski_home 03-04-07, 04:35 PM	I think 1 extra appendage ever is already powerful enough: As far as not getting enough from the prestige class already? what are you kidding?! The class gets an untyped +4 to STR and CON, which is huge, and it gets fast healing and immunity to critical hits, stunning, and sneak attacks. Those are a hefty suite of abilities, with the bulk of them coming after only 2 levels in the prestige class.
primemover003 03-04-07, 05:09 PM	Yeah I made the mistake of letting the Ranger character in my last campaign use a cursed item that caused Lycanthrope (weretiger) to become a warshaper. He's already enough of a powergamer but Warshaper made him immune to almost everything I threw at him. Throw in Steadfast Determination and the only thing I had left in my bag of tricks would be to drop an AMF on him to revert him to his humanoid form. It was a rough planning any major combat with him involved. You can only use Enervation, an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, and Energy Drain so many times before the tactic gets a little silly.
rikimaru75 03-04-07, 05:12 PM	I don't know what I was thinking earlier. Guess I will have to make the changes accordingly.
Marcus Majarra 03-04-07, 07:15 PM	There's another reason why the warshaper cannot grow more than one weapon at a time: the morphic weapons ability doesn't stack with itself. The effect merely overlaps every time you use it.
rikimaru75 03-05-07, 08:17 AM	I remember reading in the same passage that the morphic weapon also provides improved natural weapon damage. Does he only get one or the other?
chitzk0i 03-05-07, 01:25 PM	I had read it as only allowing one or the other, but that may or may not have any basis in reality. Unfortunately, I'm AFB ATM.
Marcus Majarra 03-05-07, 04:35 PM	The warshaper using morphic weapons gets to either create a natural weapon for himself or enhance a single natural weapon he already has.