What do you do when it just isn't enough? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What do you do when it just isn't enough? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ace_of_time
09-10-07, 03:46 PM OK, We were playing the Eberron Advan Grasp of the Emerald claw. I don't know if I was DMing wrong or what but we lost 3 PC and last night was a TPK. It says 6th level on the cover so I figured we would be should be 8th in the ruin. Nothing we did seem to work. We would go 3 to 4 rooms the some would come up against some that, to me should have been for a 10th level party.

First lost one with wail of the banshee trap. Then two at cloud Giant skeley. Then the TPK up against a Drowned, MM3. Our fighter (ranged specialty with transmuting bow, large Goliath), And kobold sorc/ dragon disciple die shortly after missing con saves. And the warforged duskblade die there after by the thing damaging him. She did try to run from the last encounter but it hit with an AoO then finished her the next turn.

It's like they made it to kill them off if they didn't do everything just right. We decided to just start a new campaign, because we lost 2 on the way here. Has anyone else had this trouble with this advan or any?
Kouk
09-10-07, 08:17 PM I can't speak specifically for that adventure, but your party setup is certainly a bit "unusual". Most published adventures assume an ideal world, where the party is completely balanced with a healer, a nuker, a skillmonkey and a tank.

With no skillmonkey, the traps would get you. With no healer, everything can get you (and no Turn Undead against that zombie).

The DM should read through published adventures entirely, and adjust it based on the group to prevent indiscriminate TPKs.

If you have no way of dealing with traps, tone the traps down and don't let them be lethal show-stoppers. If something has nigh-immunity against physical attacks, it is a bad fit for a melee-only party, etc.
Ace_of_time
09-10-07, 11:31 PM First set up was (Rogue, Drow cleric, Minotaur). The Minotaur died from large weapon damage. Before the ruin. The idea was skill monkey: blaster/ healer/ tank. Then my wife decide to tank as Bar/human. That worked well till we got to the ruin. Wail of the banshee trap take the cleric. After the rogue told the group that that was the trap but there was no way he could disarm it yet and that it had only enough energy left to kill one. Both player with high fort save decide to chance it at the same time.

One rolled 1 and the rolled 2. So we lost the cleric and then gained a Kobold sorc/ DD. We had loads of healing belt and potions and the rogue had cure wand so with blaster/ skill monkey: healer/ tanks in tow went on. Till cloud skeley kill rogue and tank leaving kobold running. (both my DMPC and my players kobold could out run the skeley so I stayed behind to let her get away got him down to 4 hp then he rolled finally to get past the cloak of displacement. Maxed tumble helped too.)

So we decided on three blaster cause by now we had a crap load of healing belts and potions. ( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged) Got almost to the end when we ran into the drowned with that stupid aura killed the breathing one and +12/+12 full attack with 1d8+12 damage take care of the warforge and that's when we gave up.
Ace_of_time
09-10-07, 11:46 PM I can't speak specifically for that adventure, but your party setup is certainly a bit "unusual". Most published adventures assume an ideal world, where the party is completely balanced with a healer, a nuker, a skillmonkey and a tank.

With no skillmonkey, the traps would get you. With no healer, everything can get you (and no Turn Undead against that zombie).

The DM should read through published adventures entirely, and adjust it based on the group to prevent indiscriminate TPKs.

If you have no way of dealing with traps, tone the traps down and don't let them be lethal show-stoppers. If something has nigh-immunity against physical attacks, it is a bad fit for a melee-only party, etc.

I typed the builds above but also need to address yours.

Both cloud giant skeley and the other undead's HD was way to high for the rebuke to even think about working. And with 150+ hp hard to take down easy.

Had a skill monkey at first but died and there were not any more traps after the 2nd one.

It was the four in the set so they had decided to go for it. I had read it before hand but it didn't look that bad at first so I said what the hay. Still the cleric would of had to be 11th to turn the undead in this one. and there was no way to get them to 11th before they got to the ruin starting at half way through 6th.
Mandarbgrim
09-10-07, 11:56 PM I have the adventure, but haven't looked at it since it came out...two years or more. I remember it being really tough at the ruins with several different encounters.

Although I ran through the two and a half adventures before it without a problem <Besides changing up the Mournlands a bit.> from the players except for two different boss type battles.
Kouk
09-11-07, 03:38 AM You could just consider... fudging in favor of the party?
Ace_of_time
09-11-07, 08:20 AM We didn't have a problem with the first three ether. Must have played them 4 times each. I seen this one and decided to finish the set.

They already decided not to play it again. I told them that if we did that I would wait till 8th to start and that should get them 10th before the ruin. They jokingly said we would play 3 Art warforge next time.

I try to when needed. But My player would rather do things on they own skills. They hate when I do it so I keep it down. I guess It is one of those "you had to have been there" things.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-11-07, 05:41 PM Then the TPK up against a Drowned, MM3.That one there isn't surprising as the Drowned is way under-CRed; so much so they raised it in the errata (but not enough in my opinion).
Lilinthra
09-11-07, 05:53 PM There are a couple very deadly parts of that adventure. I know the author posted notes on his website for changing one of the encounters to be more survivable.
ShubNiggurath
09-13-07, 01:57 PM Drowned are nasty... way under-CR-ed IMHO. But beatable, if you are in the right setting (lots of room, he is alone, no problem triggering other encounters around him) and with the right tactics (ranged weapons+summons... giant crocodiles eat those guys for breakfast)

I think that your problem is with your group. You are 3, you need to optimize. Minotaur? Drow? KOBOLD? Why don't they just play a commoner? (Kobold actually can be a good race, but only with particular builds... and I see none of those here).

Let them play 3 human druids (or, better druid+cleric+wizard/artificer/psion) and they will blow through your encounters.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 08:10 PM Drowned are nasty... way under-CR-ed IMHO. But beatable, if you are in the right setting (lots of room, he is alone, no problem triggering other encounters around him) and with the right tactics (ranged weapons+summons... giant crocodiles eat those guys for breakfast)

I think that your problem is with your group. You are 3, you need to optimize. Minotaur? Drow? KOBOLD? Why don't they just play a commoner? (Kobold actually can be a good race, but only with particular builds... and I see none of those here).

Let them play 3 human druids (or, better druid+cleric+wizard/artificer/psion) and they will blow through your encounters.We went up against the thing in a room filled with 2' of water with( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged). 40' to 60' but there are things in the way so it was still 40'. Kobold went 4 levels in sorc and was 9th with the rest in dragon disciple. It cost spells but gain more castings plus it adds back minus you get from kobolds and gain some bonuses that they already had. Doesn't matter 2 rounds in I missed my save then the kobold missed hers 3 rounds later leave the warforged to die by damage. The advan says he moves around them and attacks from the exit. No where to go.

Note: the minotaur never got to the ruin. After he she went human Bar 7th. Three attacks from a Cloud gaint skeley took him out.
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 08:26 PM There are a couple very deadly parts of that adventure. I know the author posted notes on his website for changing one of the encounters to be more survivable.Do you know the link?
Ace_of_time
09-13-07, 08:29 PM That one there isn't surprising as the Drowned is way under-CRed; so much so they raised it in the errata (but not enough in my opinion).They say 9 but I'd say 11. Just now looked it up.
Lilinthra
09-14-07, 09:36 AM Do you know the link?

http://homepage.mac.com/macbrucecordell/B1283663648/C608165187/E1610916623/index.html

It's for much earlier in the adventurer then where you are, though.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 09:44 AM Jack (the rogue) got swollowed in that one or we would have died there two. Gutted him to get out. Hang on to the side and keeped stabing him till he flang me loose. Had to swim for 10 rounds to get back to the boat.
Mandarbgrim
09-14-07, 11:33 AM I'm a bit curious if your players normally have issues with more standard encounters? Do they have issues with the normal encounter rules of their level vs. EL's ranging from +0 to +3?
jasper
09-14-07, 01:43 PM What is the problem? So the dice were against them and they didn't pull out and retreat. It is a game some times the pc dies some times the monster.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 02:31 PM I'm a bit curious if your players normally have issues with more standard encounters? Do they have issues with the normal encounter rules of their level vs. EL's ranging from +0 to +3? That's what I don't under stand we most go +1 on encouters anyway.
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 02:38 PM What is the problem? So the dice were against them and they didn't pull out and retreat. It is a game some times the pc dies some times the monster.
The monster moves around cutting off their exit, They couldn't retreat. Drowned aura effect makes you save DC 10 +1 per round con saves or start Drowning dieing in three rounds. He came up in the middle of the room. Str 25. 2' of water on the floor didn't help ether.
Drag0nUL
09-14-07, 04:22 PM Grasp of the Emerald Claw is a tough adventure indeed. There are several parts that can be extremely deadly unless the party is really strong.

When I played through this adventure, my party consisted of: human Paladin/Cleric/Bone Knight(me), Warforged Fighter/Artificer, Deathless(custom
template based on the Lich, +2 LA) elf Fighter/Wizard changeling Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster and halfling Barbarian/Ranger.

We took on most of the stuff no problem until the Wail of the Banshee trap. That ting is almost impossible to disarm by an 8th level rogue and he wanted to take no chances. So we had the deathless elf open the door since he was immune(still, I had a +17 fort save back then so I think I would have done it too). The giant skeleton wasn't much of a problem as far as i can remember. And then we got to the drowned (DM modified adventure a bit so it was 2 of them). We had 2 characters immune to the drowning effect but still it was a tough fight. Those things are really tough for their CR. We lost the rogue here (failed save) and the halfling (we thought at first it was just one drowned and he got into the wrong place and was torn to shreds by the second one before we could do anything significant).
Ace_of_time
09-14-07, 05:22 PM I think if we do run this one again It will be at 10th or 11th and i'll add some levels to the solders. Might change the dire to a few reg sharks.
ShubNiggurath
09-18-07, 04:22 PM We went up against the thing in a room filled with 2' of water with( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged). 40' to 60' but there are things in the way so it was still 40'. Kobold went 4 levels in sorc and was 9th with the rest in dragon disciple. It cost spells but gain more castings plus it adds back minus you get from kobolds and gain some bonuses that they already had. Doesn't matter 2 rounds in I missed my save then the kobold missed hers 3 rounds later leave the warforged to die by damage. The advan says he moves around them and attacks from the exit. No where to go.

Note: the minotaur never got to the ruin. After he she went human Bar 7th. Three attacks from a Cloud gaint skeley took him out.

I understood your posts perfectly and I know very well those classes/races. Again my points are:
1)You had a suboptimal group
- bowmans (and melee classes in general) are suboptimal at your level
- Kobold is a bad race
- dragon disciple is a terrible PrC
- Duskblade is only a so-so race

2)You used suboptimal tactics
- what about luring the monster far away from the door and then running away? Bullrushing?
(even if I have to say that the crappy characters you had, see point 1, didn't allow you to choose from too many tactics)

My point, again, is that if you want to run against "optimized" monsters (like many in MM2 and 3) you need "optimized" caharcters... or wait a few levels (btw, you are 3, not 4 as in the standard, iconic group, so you count as 1 CR lower).

Try again with a human druid, a human cleric with DMM:persistant and a sun elf wizard/psion/artificer.
It won't be easy but it won't be though either.

I don't want to think what three druids could do to this guy (3 brown bears!!!). Well, I don't want to think what three druids could do to anything
Ace_of_time
09-18-07, 07:39 PM My archer had 2d6 damage +6 and it was transmuting too boot. Not including rapid shot and life stealing gem. Luring well we were trying that when I fell after two rounds on a missed con save and the kobold fell 1 round later. Sorry but not much time left for luring him any where. He isn't mindless. We aren't optimizers so not having optimal PC's isn't a big problem for us. How about it was just a hard adven. Most of the encounters are CR7 to CR9's and since everything is large size they deal large damage.

Note: duskblade is a class not a race. Might want to edit that.The only bad thing about a kobold is-4 str and -2 con which the class made up for.
jasper
09-28-07, 08:24 AM sorry ace it is game some times the monster wins. Or do you whine when you lose at mouse trap, shoots and ladders, etc.
Ace_of_time
09-28-07, 08:53 PM I'm the DM, not one of the players. Just wanted to Know if any of the other DMs have had the same problems. Which some have. Don't see how monsters with moves like that make the game more fun for my players. Your comparing a level 6 adven to children's games?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_time 09-10-07, 03:46 PM	OK, We were playing the Eberron Advan Grasp of the Emerald claw. I don't know if I was DMing wrong or what but we lost 3 PC and last night was a TPK. It says 6th level on the cover so I figured we would be should be 8th in the ruin. Nothing we did seem to work. We would go 3 to 4 rooms the some would come up against some that, to me should have been for a 10th level party. First lost one with wail of the banshee trap. Then two at cloud Giant skeley. Then the TPK up against a Drowned, MM3. Our fighter (ranged specialty with transmuting bow, large Goliath), And kobold sorc/ dragon disciple die shortly after missing con saves. And the warforged duskblade die there after by the thing damaging him. She did try to run from the last encounter but it hit with an AoO then finished her the next turn. It's like they made it to kill them off if they didn't do everything just right. We decided to just start a new campaign, because we lost 2 on the way here. Has anyone else had this trouble with this advan or any?
Kouk 09-10-07, 08:17 PM	I can't speak specifically for that adventure, but your party setup is certainly a bit "unusual". Most published adventures assume an ideal world, where the party is completely balanced with a healer, a nuker, a skillmonkey and a tank. With no skillmonkey, the traps would get you. With no healer, everything can get you (and no Turn Undead against that zombie). The DM should read through published adventures entirely, and adjust it based on the group to prevent indiscriminate TPKs. If you have no way of dealing with traps, tone the traps down and don't let them be lethal show-stoppers. If something has nigh-immunity against physical attacks, it is a bad fit for a melee-only party, etc.
Ace_of_time 09-10-07, 11:31 PM	First set up was (Rogue, Drow cleric, Minotaur). The Minotaur died from large weapon damage. Before the ruin. The idea was skill monkey: blaster/ healer/ tank. Then my wife decide to tank as Bar/human. That worked well till we got to the ruin. Wail of the banshee trap take the cleric. After the rogue told the group that that was the trap but there was no way he could disarm it yet and that it had only enough energy left to kill one. Both player with high fort save decide to chance it at the same time. One rolled 1 and the rolled 2. So we lost the cleric and then gained a Kobold sorc/ DD. We had loads of healing belt and potions and the rogue had cure wand so with blaster/ skill monkey: healer/ tanks in tow went on. Till cloud skeley kill rogue and tank leaving kobold running. (both my DMPC and my players kobold could out run the skeley so I stayed behind to let her get away got him down to 4 hp then he rolled finally to get past the cloak of displacement. Maxed tumble helped too.) So we decided on three blaster cause by now we had a crap load of healing belts and potions. ( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged) Got almost to the end when we ran into the drowned with that stupid aura killed the breathing one and +12/+12 full attack with 1d8+12 damage take care of the warforge and that's when we gave up.
Ace_of_time 09-10-07, 11:46 PM	I can't speak specifically for that adventure, but your party setup is certainly a bit "unusual". Most published adventures assume an ideal world, where the party is completely balanced with a healer, a nuker, a skillmonkey and a tank. With no skillmonkey, the traps would get you. With no healer, everything can get you (and no Turn Undead against that zombie). The DM should read through published adventures entirely, and adjust it based on the group to prevent indiscriminate TPKs. If you have no way of dealing with traps, tone the traps down and don't let them be lethal show-stoppers. If something has nigh-immunity against physical attacks, it is a bad fit for a melee-only party, etc. I typed the builds above but also need to address yours. Both cloud giant skeley and the other undead's HD was way to high for the rebuke to even think about working. And with 150+ hp hard to take down easy. Had a skill monkey at first but died and there were not any more traps after the 2nd one. It was the four in the set so they had decided to go for it. I had read it before hand but it didn't look that bad at first so I said what the hay. Still the cleric would of had to be 11th to turn the undead in this one. and there was no way to get them to 11th before they got to the ruin starting at half way through 6th.
Mandarbgrim 09-10-07, 11:56 PM	I have the adventure, but haven't looked at it since it came out...two years or more. I remember it being really tough at the ruins with several different encounters. Although I ran through the two and a half adventures before it without a problem <Besides changing up the Mournlands a bit.> from the players except for two different boss type battles.
Kouk 09-11-07, 03:38 AM	You could just consider... fudging in favor of the party?
Ace_of_time 09-11-07, 08:20 AM	We didn't have a problem with the first three ether. Must have played them 4 times each. I seen this one and decided to finish the set. They already decided not to play it again. I told them that if we did that I would wait till 8th to start and that should get them 10th before the ruin. They jokingly said we would play 3 Art warforge next time. I try to when needed. But My player would rather do things on they own skills. They hate when I do it so I keep it down. I guess It is one of those "you had to have been there" things.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-11-07, 05:41 PM	Then the TPK up against a Drowned, MM3.That one there isn't surprising as the Drowned is way under-CRed; so much so they raised it in the errata (but not enough in my opinion).
Lilinthra 09-11-07, 05:53 PM	There are a couple very deadly parts of that adventure. I know the author posted notes on his website for changing one of the encounters to be more survivable.
ShubNiggurath 09-13-07, 01:57 PM	Drowned are nasty... way under-CR-ed IMHO. But beatable, if you are in the right setting (lots of room, he is alone, no problem triggering other encounters around him) and with the right tactics (ranged weapons+summons... giant crocodiles eat those guys for breakfast) I think that your problem is with your group. You are 3, you need to optimize. Minotaur? Drow? KOBOLD? Why don't they just play a commoner? (Kobold actually can be a good race, but only with particular builds... and I see none of those here). Let them play 3 human druids (or, better druid+cleric+wizard/artificer/psion) and they will blow through your encounters.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 08:10 PM	Drowned are nasty... way under-CR-ed IMHO. But beatable, if you are in the right setting (lots of room, he is alone, no problem triggering other encounters around him) and with the right tactics (ranged weapons+summons... giant crocodiles eat those guys for breakfast) I think that your problem is with your group. You are 3, you need to optimize. Minotaur? Drow? KOBOLD? Why don't they just play a commoner? (Kobold actually can be a good race, but only with particular builds... and I see none of those here). Let them play 3 human druids (or, better druid+cleric+wizard/artificer/psion) and they will blow through your encounters.We went up against the thing in a room filled with 2' of water with( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged). 40' to 60' but there are things in the way so it was still 40'. Kobold went 4 levels in sorc and was 9th with the rest in dragon disciple. It cost spells but gain more castings plus it adds back minus you get from kobolds and gain some bonuses that they already had. Doesn't matter 2 rounds in I missed my save then the kobold missed hers 3 rounds later leave the warforged to die by damage. The advan says he moves around them and attacks from the exit. No where to go. Note: the minotaur never got to the ruin. After he she went human Bar 7th. Three attacks from a Cloud gaint skeley took him out.
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 08:26 PM	There are a couple very deadly parts of that adventure. I know the author posted notes on his website for changing one of the encounters to be more survivable.Do you know the link?
Ace_of_time 09-13-07, 08:29 PM	That one there isn't surprising as the Drowned is way under-CRed; so much so they raised it in the errata (but not enough in my opinion).They say 9 but I'd say 11. Just now looked it up.
Lilinthra 09-14-07, 09:36 AM	Do you know the link? http://homepage.mac.com/macbrucecordell/B1283663648/C608165187/E1610916623/index.html It's for much earlier in the adventurer then where you are, though.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 09:44 AM	Jack (the rogue) got swollowed in that one or we would have died there two. Gutted him to get out. Hang on to the side and keeped stabing him till he flang me loose. Had to swim for 10 rounds to get back to the boat.
Mandarbgrim 09-14-07, 11:33 AM	I'm a bit curious if your players normally have issues with more standard encounters? Do they have issues with the normal encounter rules of their level vs. EL's ranging from +0 to +3?
jasper 09-14-07, 01:43 PM	What is the problem? So the dice were against them and they didn't pull out and retreat. It is a game some times the pc dies some times the monster.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 02:31 PM	I'm a bit curious if your players normally have issues with more standard encounters? Do they have issues with the normal encounter rules of their level vs. EL's ranging from +0 to +3? That's what I don't under stand we most go +1 on encouters anyway.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 02:38 PM	What is the problem? So the dice were against them and they didn't pull out and retreat. It is a game some times the pc dies some times the monster. The monster moves around cutting off their exit, They couldn't retreat. Drowned aura effect makes you save DC 10 +1 per round con saves or start Drowning dieing in three rounds. He came up in the middle of the room. Str 25. 2' of water on the floor didn't help ether.
Drag0nUL 09-14-07, 04:22 PM	Grasp of the Emerald Claw is a tough adventure indeed. There are several parts that can be extremely deadly unless the party is really strong. When I played through this adventure, my party consisted of: human Paladin/Cleric/Bone Knight(me), Warforged Fighter/Artificer, Deathless(custom template based on the Lich, +2 LA) elf Fighter/Wizard changeling Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster and halfling Barbarian/Ranger. We took on most of the stuff no problem until the Wail of the Banshee trap. That ting is almost impossible to disarm by an 8th level rogue and he wanted to take no chances. So we had the deathless elf open the door since he was immune(still, I had a +17 fort save back then so I think I would have done it too). The giant skeleton wasn't much of a problem as far as i can remember. And then we got to the drowned (DM modified adventure a bit so it was 2 of them). We had 2 characters immune to the drowning effect but still it was a tough fight. Those things are really tough for their CR. We lost the rogue here (failed save) and the halfling (we thought at first it was just one drowned and he got into the wrong place and was torn to shreds by the second one before we could do anything significant).
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 05:22 PM	I think if we do run this one again It will be at 10th or 11th and i'll add some levels to the solders. Might change the dire to a few reg sharks.
ShubNiggurath 09-18-07, 04:22 PM	We went up against the thing in a room filled with 2' of water with( range specialty fighter bowman Goliath, with acid bursting arrows/ Kobold/ Dusk blade warforged). 40' to 60' but there are things in the way so it was still 40'. Kobold went 4 levels in sorc and was 9th with the rest in dragon disciple. It cost spells but gain more castings plus it adds back minus you get from kobolds and gain some bonuses that they already had. Doesn't matter 2 rounds in I missed my save then the kobold missed hers 3 rounds later leave the warforged to die by damage. The advan says he moves around them and attacks from the exit. No where to go. Note: the minotaur never got to the ruin. After he she went human Bar 7th. Three attacks from a Cloud gaint skeley took him out. I understood your posts perfectly and I know very well those classes/races. Again my points are: 1)You had a suboptimal group - bowmans (and melee classes in general) are suboptimal at your level - Kobold is a bad race - dragon disciple is a terrible PrC - Duskblade is only a so-so race 2)You used suboptimal tactics - what about luring the monster far away from the door and then running away? Bullrushing? (even if I have to say that the crappy characters you had, see point 1, didn't allow you to choose from too many tactics) My point, again, is that if you want to run against "optimized" monsters (like many in MM2 and 3) you need "optimized" caharcters... or wait a few levels (btw, you are 3, not 4 as in the standard, iconic group, so you count as 1 CR lower). Try again with a human druid, a human cleric with DMM:persistant and a sun elf wizard/psion/artificer. It won't be easy but it won't be though either. I don't want to think what three druids could do to this guy (3 brown bears!!!). Well, I don't want to think what three druids could do to anything
Ace_of_time 09-18-07, 07:39 PM	My archer had 2d6 damage +6 and it was transmuting too boot. Not including rapid shot and life stealing gem. Luring well we were trying that when I fell after two rounds on a missed con save and the kobold fell 1 round later. Sorry but not much time left for luring him any where. He isn't mindless. We aren't optimizers so not having optimal PC's isn't a big problem for us. How about it was just a hard adven. Most of the encounters are CR7 to CR9's and since everything is large size they deal large damage. Note: duskblade is a class not a race. Might want to edit that.The only bad thing about a kobold is-4 str and -2 con which the class made up for.
jasper 09-28-07, 08:24 AM	sorry ace it is game some times the monster wins. Or do you whine when you lose at mouse trap, shoots and ladders, etc.
Ace_of_time 09-28-07, 08:53 PM	I'm the DM, not one of the players. Just wanted to Know if any of the other DMs have had the same problems. Which some have. Don't see how monsters with moves like that make the game more fun for my players. Your comparing a level 6 adven to children's games?