What is a character's own CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What is a character's own CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
01-13-08, 09:37 PM Hi.

Does anyone know how to calculate what a PC's own CR would be?

I am planning to have some fun with my players and the Plane of Mirrors in two days. I have most of it planned out, but I am not sure what the CR would be for their mirror selves. I plan to have a copy of each of their character sheets, and whichever of them "accidentally" ends up falling in (Alice: Through the Looking Glass style) will end up facing himself/themselves.

I will need the CR to calculate exp and stuff.

Thank you in advance for any help!
Kouk
01-13-08, 09:43 PM CR if an NPC with class levels is equal to their class levels, assuming that the class is not terribly counter to the natural abilities of the creature.

For nearly any PC race, that would mean CR = Class Levels, but if they have racial HD then look at the base creature and add their class levels as more CR.
StevenO
01-13-08, 11:26 PM For the standard races CR for a PC clone generally equals its level although it may need to be bumped up a litte (+1) to account for PC treasure levels. Generally a party of four facing their identical clones should be facing an EL = APL +4 or 5 meaning players should expect some to die.

Now if you go and start playing non-standard races you may find your ECL greatly exceeds what your CR would be as an NPC. As an example a Mindflayer PC has +16 to their class level (I think it is 8 HD + 8 LA anyway.) to determine the ECL but as an NPC you'd just get the racial CR which is only 8.
Eater_Of_Souls
01-14-08, 07:18 AM Don't forget wealth level guide lines your players need a lot of cash to have it easy with the monsters ...
Wih
01-15-08, 07:24 PM If they're of standard race, and have equipment adding up to standard Wealth by Level, their CR is their character level. It gets trickier if they have substantially more or less gold, or if they're of a monstrous race.
StevenO
01-15-08, 07:45 PM CR for classes NPCs is based on NPC wealth tables, NOT PC Wealth by Level standards. Granted NPCs have more equipment at the lowest levels PCs quickly overtake and surpass them to the point you could take a +1 off of all the PC's stuff and still have it be worth more than the NPCs equipment alotment is.
Sildatorak
01-15-08, 08:36 PM Assuming standard PC races, I'd peg it at class level+1 for CR. The extra PC gear and likely super-elite array pushes them over the CR of an equal level NPC by a smidge. It also leads to a 4 on 4 fight being CR=Party Level+5 which indicates about a 50% chance of victory with likely casualties for the winning side and roughly 100% of resources for the day expended.
StevenO
01-15-08, 11:08 PM A party vs. identical clones should yield nearly 100% causualty rate on both side which for a four member party indicates an EL = APL+5. If you think about it a player vs. the player's identical clone should yield a 50/50 chance of either side winning.
runestar
01-16-08, 07:25 AM Note that ECL and cr are 2 completely different concepts, and should never be used interchangeably with each other.

That, and the npc cr guidelines are just plain inaccurate. You cannot possible tell me with a straight face that a drow wiz1 is cr2, or that a human fighter20 is cr20. I would caution against using them.
StevenO
01-16-08, 01:33 PM With wise use of their "equipment" alotment it certainly is possible to make an NPC into an appropriate challenge. The big problem is you need to start thinking of building the NPC into an encounter piece instead of building one like a PC. Start having NPCs make use of one shot items that can increase their power vs the PCs.
Wih
01-16-08, 06:42 PM Overall, the best way to do it is to build the encounter/enemy as you want, and then compare it to other existing monsters and figure out what CR it should be.
narack
01-17-08, 12:37 PM me i house rule PC give +1 bump at 10 and another one at 20 for a total of +2
10th = 11th

20th= 22th
eamon
01-19-08, 11:12 AM me i house rule PC give +1 bump at 10 and another one at 20 for a total of +2
10th = 11th

20th= 22th

I do the converse, judging an NPC to be 1-2 CR weaker than they appear. After all, four PC-style characters should always be less than "overpowering" (CR 5 higher than party level) but pretty near it (it's not a certain loss, but 50-50). Being like a PC but weaker means that NPC should be weaker.

In any case, given that a CR is ultimately benchmarked compared to a PC, a PC's CR should ultimately deviate constantly from his level. Also, in my experience, NPC's become rather weak compared to the party as the levels (and wealth difference) rises, also suggesting that the DMG guidelines aren't accurate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 01-13-08, 09:37 PM	Hi. Does anyone know how to calculate what a PC's own CR would be? I am planning to have some fun with my players and the Plane of Mirrors in two days. I have most of it planned out, but I am not sure what the CR would be for their mirror selves. I plan to have a copy of each of their character sheets, and whichever of them "accidentally" ends up falling in (Alice: Through the Looking Glass style) will end up facing himself/themselves. I will need the CR to calculate exp and stuff. Thank you in advance for any help!
Kouk 01-13-08, 09:43 PM	CR if an NPC with class levels is equal to their class levels, assuming that the class is not terribly counter to the natural abilities of the creature. For nearly any PC race, that would mean CR = Class Levels, but if they have racial HD then look at the base creature and add their class levels as more CR.
StevenO 01-13-08, 11:26 PM	For the standard races CR for a PC clone generally equals its level although it may need to be bumped up a litte (+1) to account for PC treasure levels. Generally a party of four facing their identical clones should be facing an EL = APL +4 or 5 meaning players should expect some to die. Now if you go and start playing non-standard races you may find your ECL greatly exceeds what your CR would be as an NPC. As an example a Mindflayer PC has +16 to their class level (I think it is 8 HD + 8 LA anyway.) to determine the ECL but as an NPC you'd just get the racial CR which is only 8.
Eater_Of_Souls 01-14-08, 07:18 AM	Don't forget wealth level guide lines your players need a lot of cash to have it easy with the monsters ...
Wih 01-15-08, 07:24 PM	If they're of standard race, and have equipment adding up to standard Wealth by Level, their CR is their character level. It gets trickier if they have substantially more or less gold, or if they're of a monstrous race.
StevenO 01-15-08, 07:45 PM	CR for classes NPCs is based on NPC wealth tables, NOT PC Wealth by Level standards. Granted NPCs have more equipment at the lowest levels PCs quickly overtake and surpass them to the point you could take a +1 off of all the PC's stuff and still have it be worth more than the NPCs equipment alotment is.
Sildatorak 01-15-08, 08:36 PM	Assuming standard PC races, I'd peg it at class level+1 for CR. The extra PC gear and likely super-elite array pushes them over the CR of an equal level NPC by a smidge. It also leads to a 4 on 4 fight being CR=Party Level+5 which indicates about a 50% chance of victory with likely casualties for the winning side and roughly 100% of resources for the day expended.
StevenO 01-15-08, 11:08 PM	A party vs. identical clones should yield nearly 100% causualty rate on both side which for a four member party indicates an EL = APL+5. If you think about it a player vs. the player's identical clone should yield a 50/50 chance of either side winning.
runestar 01-16-08, 07:25 AM	Note that ECL and cr are 2 completely different concepts, and should never be used interchangeably with each other. That, and the npc cr guidelines are just plain inaccurate. You cannot possible tell me with a straight face that a drow wiz1 is cr2, or that a human fighter20 is cr20. I would caution against using them.
StevenO 01-16-08, 01:33 PM	With wise use of their "equipment" alotment it certainly is possible to make an NPC into an appropriate challenge. The big problem is you need to start thinking of building the NPC into an encounter piece instead of building one like a PC. Start having NPCs make use of one shot items that can increase their power vs the PCs.
Wih 01-16-08, 06:42 PM	Overall, the best way to do it is to build the encounter/enemy as you want, and then compare it to other existing monsters and figure out what CR it should be.
narack 01-17-08, 12:37 PM	me i house rule PC give +1 bump at 10 and another one at 20 for a total of +2 10th = 11th 20th= 22th
eamon 01-19-08, 11:12 AM	me i house rule PC give +1 bump at 10 and another one at 20 for a total of +2 10th = 11th 20th= 22th I do the converse, judging an NPC to be 1-2 CR weaker than they appear. After all, four PC-style characters should always be less than "overpowering" (CR 5 higher than party level) but pretty near it (it's not a certain loss, but 50-50). Being like a PC but weaker means that NPC should be weaker. In any case, given that a CR is ultimately benchmarked compared to a PC, a PC's CR should ultimately deviate constantly from his level. Also, in my experience, NPC's become rather weak compared to the party as the levels (and wealth difference) rises, also suggesting that the DMG guidelines aren't accurate.