When are spell checks automatic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

When are spell checks automatic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LaserWolf
09-06-07, 12:46 AM Which skill checks do you typically call for (instead of being initiated by your players)? Spot and Listen are givens, but what about Knowledge? In many situations it feels right to call for it, since hearing a specific name or seeing a specific type of architecture would trigger a memory for a character that has prior knowledge. Some prewritten adventures seem to expect the players to initiate a Knowledge check, though (e.g., to "do research"), and I know my inexperienced playgroup wouldn't think to ask. Should I tell them that Knowledge checks should be their responsibility?

What about Spellcraft? If a wizard is entering a situation in which a spell is in effect but the effect wouldn't be obvious to a layperson, does the wizard get a Spellcraft check just as if it was one of his senses? (Maybe recognizing that the monsters he sees have been summoned, for example) I'm preparing an adventure in which a successful Spellcraft check would give a character important information about an NPC spellcaster (specifically that the NPC could not have cast the spell that is known to be in effect and is assumed to have been cast by this person). It seems like spellcasters would instinctually size each other up, even if the player doesn't think to. Do you agree?

While we're on the subject, are there any other skill checks that you tend to initiate when they wouldn't otherwise be obvious?
heffroncm
09-06-07, 01:27 AM For Knowledge, if it's something I want a group to research, I generally ask for a Knowledge check at the time. Failure gets "There's something nagging your brain, but you can't quite remember." Success gets, "You remember reading about this style of architecture in Masonry of the Ages by Hazwel Harrier Harmonious Havensorth the Third." Either way, the characters are probably going to look into it more. A successful check gets a +4 when they research it.

For Spellcraft, the caster has to have some sort of knowledge of the spell being there. Some spells have visual effects, others state they can be detected with Spellcraft, but for the most part you need Detect Magic up.

As for sizing someone up, Sense Motive already covers this. A knowledge of how spells are worked does not equate to being able to gauge another's skill with magic. You can identify each spell they cast, and get a general idea, but they might not be using their most powerful magic.
Puca
09-06-07, 10:06 AM Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t. Whenever there is something worth knowing, your players deserve a Knowledge check.

The way Ive seen good DMs handle this is to make the rolls themselves, and then base the information they give on the die result. Like, "A large creature, about twelve feet tall and maybe 700 pounds bursts into the room. It looks sort of like a big bluish praying mantis but for the nasty spear it wields."

[DM makes secret roll for the only player with Knowledge (planes)]

"Steve, you see it is a Gelugon, a type of devil. It is immune to fire and poison and resistant to acid and cold. It regenerates, and good-aligned weapons are more effective against it than others." [Steve communicates this information to the party.]

Thats how it should be done.

When DMs dont do this, I, as a player, make a Knowledge check whenever an unidentified creature appears on the scene. That works too, but it slows things down at times. “I rolled a 15. Thats a 20 if it is covered by Arcana, a 19 if it is covered by Planes, a 26 if it is covered by Religion…” and all at what is supposed to be a climactic moment.
goawayugh
09-06-07, 02:17 PM Whenever there is something worth knowing, your players deserve a Knowledge check.

The way Ive seen good DMs handle this is to make the rolls themselves, and then base the information they give on the die result. Like, "A large creature, about twelve feet tall and maybe 700 pounds bursts into the room. It looks sort of like a big bluish praying mantis but for the nasty spear it wields."

[DM makes secret roll for the only player with Knowledge (planes)]

"Steve, you see it is a Gelugon, a type of devil. It is immune to fire and poison and resistant to acid and cold. It regenerates, and good-aligned weapons are more effective against it than others." [Steve communicates this information to the party.]

Thats how it should be done.

When DMs dont do this, I, as a player, make a Knowledge check whenever an unidentified creature appears on the scene. That works too, but it slows things down at times. “I rolled a 15. Thats a 20 if it is covered by Arcana, a 19 if it is covered by Planes, a 26 if it is covered by Religion…” and all at what is supposed to be a climactic moment.

I don't like rolling anything that the PC's need to be doing. I'm a firm believer in that you put your own energy into your dice. However, what I will do is have all of the PC's skill check modifiers in front of me. I'll tell someone to roll a d20 and tell me what they rolled and then I will add the appropriate modifier. I do this for many other things as well, especially Will saves (I like messing w/ their minds).

This way, they have no idea if I'm adding their +2 Spot, +10 Will save, or their +22 Knowledge (Arcana).
Puca
09-06-07, 02:40 PM Either way. If there is something worth knowing, and you can make the check (e.g. you have ranks in the right skill when the DC is greater than 10) you should automatically get the check.

To expand on the OPs original question:
You should also automatically get a Spellcraft check whenever there is a spell effect in place and whenever you are confronted by someone casting a spell, assuming you can see/hear the components.

I would also add to your list of automatic checks Sense Motive. Anytime you are lied to, anytime you have a Bluff check made, you get a Sense Motive.

Other than that, I dont think there are any other automatic checks. The rest are either active or reactive. You either have to go out of your way to do them, or they happen only in response to something else.
LaserWolf
09-06-07, 03:01 PM It sounds like I should keep a more comprehensive list of my players' stats with me. I haven't been giving automatic Sense Motive checks since calling for it essentially reveals information to the players (unless you do it all the time), but it makes sense to make them secretly.

Thanks for helping a new DM out! I suspect there are a couple other things I'm not doing quite right (and the players are new so they don't know any better) so I'll be back!
Puca
09-06-07, 04:59 PM You should have each player fill out a 3x5 index card with their modifiers to these skills as well as BAB, attacks for commonly used weapons, and AC details. Much easier to keep in order and reference quickly than a full character sheet is.

You can either have them make rolls without telling them what the roll is for. Or you can roll them yourself. If you roll them yourself, it is nice to have multiple d20 and color code them: Jim is red. Steve is green, etc.

Another DM I play with has everyone roll ten times at the beginning of each session. He prints the numbers in order on the bottom of their individual cards and uses them as the secret rolls, applying the appropriate modifier when needed and checking them off as they are used.
LaserWolf
09-06-07, 08:29 PM Yeah, I've just been keeping track of attacks, ACs, and saves. Those are good ideas - thanks!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LaserWolf 09-06-07, 12:46 AM	Which skill checks do you typically call for (instead of being initiated by your players)? Spot and Listen are givens, but what about Knowledge? In many situations it feels right to call for it, since hearing a specific name or seeing a specific type of architecture would trigger a memory for a character that has prior knowledge. Some prewritten adventures seem to expect the players to initiate a Knowledge check, though (e.g., to "do research"), and I know my inexperienced playgroup wouldn't think to ask. Should I tell them that Knowledge checks should be their responsibility? What about Spellcraft? If a wizard is entering a situation in which a spell is in effect but the effect wouldn't be obvious to a layperson, does the wizard get a Spellcraft check just as if it was one of his senses? (Maybe recognizing that the monsters he sees have been summoned, for example) I'm preparing an adventure in which a successful Spellcraft check would give a character important information about an NPC spellcaster (specifically that the NPC could not have cast the spell that is known to be in effect and is assumed to have been cast by this person). It seems like spellcasters would instinctually size each other up, even if the player doesn't think to. Do you agree? While we're on the subject, are there any other skill checks that you tend to initiate when they wouldn't otherwise be obvious?
heffroncm 09-06-07, 01:27 AM	For Knowledge, if it's something I want a group to research, I generally ask for a Knowledge check at the time. Failure gets "There's something nagging your brain, but you can't quite remember." Success gets, "You remember reading about this style of architecture in Masonry of the Ages by Hazwel Harrier Harmonious Havensorth the Third." Either way, the characters are probably going to look into it more. A successful check gets a +4 when they research it. For Spellcraft, the caster has to have some sort of knowledge of the spell being there. Some spells have visual effects, others state they can be detected with Spellcraft, but for the most part you need Detect Magic up. As for sizing someone up, Sense Motive already covers this. A knowledge of how spells are worked does not equate to being able to gauge another's skill with magic. You can identify each spell they cast, and get a general idea, but they might not be using their most powerful magic.
Puca 09-06-07, 10:06 AM	Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t. Whenever there is something worth knowing, your players deserve a Knowledge check. The way Ive seen good DMs handle this is to make the rolls themselves, and then base the information they give on the die result. Like, "A large creature, about twelve feet tall and maybe 700 pounds bursts into the room. It looks sort of like a big bluish praying mantis but for the nasty spear it wields." [DM makes secret roll for the only player with Knowledge (planes)] "Steve, you see it is a Gelugon, a type of devil. It is immune to fire and poison and resistant to acid and cold. It regenerates, and good-aligned weapons are more effective against it than others." [Steve communicates this information to the party.] Thats how it should be done. When DMs dont do this, I, as a player, make a Knowledge check whenever an unidentified creature appears on the scene. That works too, but it slows things down at times. “I rolled a 15. Thats a 20 if it is covered by Arcana, a 19 if it is covered by Planes, a 26 if it is covered by Religion…” and all at what is supposed to be a climactic moment.
goawayugh 09-06-07, 02:17 PM	Whenever there is something worth knowing, your players deserve a Knowledge check. The way Ive seen good DMs handle this is to make the rolls themselves, and then base the information they give on the die result. Like, "A large creature, about twelve feet tall and maybe 700 pounds bursts into the room. It looks sort of like a big bluish praying mantis but for the nasty spear it wields." [DM makes secret roll for the only player with Knowledge (planes)] "Steve, you see it is a Gelugon, a type of devil. It is immune to fire and poison and resistant to acid and cold. It regenerates, and good-aligned weapons are more effective against it than others." [Steve communicates this information to the party.] Thats how it should be done. When DMs dont do this, I, as a player, make a Knowledge check whenever an unidentified creature appears on the scene. That works too, but it slows things down at times. “I rolled a 15. Thats a 20 if it is covered by Arcana, a 19 if it is covered by Planes, a 26 if it is covered by Religion…” and all at what is supposed to be a climactic moment. I don't like rolling anything that the PC's need to be doing. I'm a firm believer in that you put your own energy into your dice. However, what I will do is have all of the PC's skill check modifiers in front of me. I'll tell someone to roll a d20 and tell me what they rolled and then I will add the appropriate modifier. I do this for many other things as well, especially Will saves (I like messing w/ their minds). This way, they have no idea if I'm adding their +2 Spot, +10 Will save, or their +22 Knowledge (Arcana).
Puca 09-06-07, 02:40 PM	Either way. If there is something worth knowing, and you can make the check (e.g. you have ranks in the right skill when the DC is greater than 10) you should automatically get the check. To expand on the OPs original question: You should also automatically get a Spellcraft check whenever there is a spell effect in place and whenever you are confronted by someone casting a spell, assuming you can see/hear the components. I would also add to your list of automatic checks Sense Motive. Anytime you are lied to, anytime you have a Bluff check made, you get a Sense Motive. Other than that, I dont think there are any other automatic checks. The rest are either active or reactive. You either have to go out of your way to do them, or they happen only in response to something else.
LaserWolf 09-06-07, 03:01 PM	It sounds like I should keep a more comprehensive list of my players' stats with me. I haven't been giving automatic Sense Motive checks since calling for it essentially reveals information to the players (unless you do it all the time), but it makes sense to make them secretly. Thanks for helping a new DM out! I suspect there are a couple other things I'm not doing quite right (and the players are new so they don't know any better) so I'll be back!
Puca 09-06-07, 04:59 PM	You should have each player fill out a 3x5 index card with their modifiers to these skills as well as BAB, attacks for commonly used weapons, and AC details. Much easier to keep in order and reference quickly than a full character sheet is. You can either have them make rolls without telling them what the roll is for. Or you can roll them yourself. If you roll them yourself, it is nice to have multiple d20 and color code them: Jim is red. Steve is green, etc. Another DM I play with has everyone roll ten times at the beginning of each session. He prints the numbers in order on the bottom of their individual cards and uses them as the secret rolls, applying the appropriate modifier when needed and checking them off as they are used.
LaserWolf 09-06-07, 08:29 PM	Yeah, I've just been keeping track of attacks, ACs, and saves. Those are good ideas - thanks!