Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JustinA 04-17-07, 08:23 AM	Characters are limited to a certain number of attacks of opportunity per round (usually one, although some abilities -- most notably Combat Reflexes -- can change that). When does the counter "reset"? As I see it, there are three possibilities: 1. The beginning of a character's turn. 2. The end of a character's turn. 3. The end of the round. In general, option 3 doesn't sound right to me since it will essentially let everyone except the first and the last guy in the initiative order to potentially take twice their maximum number of AoOs between the time they took their last action and the time they take their next action. In general, it just makes sense to say, at the end of a character's turn, "you can take on attack of opportunity before your next turn". And in general the timespan of the character's actual turn isn't important because other people usually aren't provoking attacks of opportunity during that time. But other characters can do that (readied actions, performing an action which provokes an AoO as an AoO, etc.), so the issue has come up. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Radijs 04-17-07, 08:40 AM	IIRC at the beginning of a characters turn.
olshanski_home 04-17-07, 09:31 AM	In general, it just makes sense to say, at the end of a character's turn, "you can take on attack of opportunity before your next turn". And in general the timespan of the character's actual turn isn't important because other people usually aren't provoking attacks of opportunity during that time.I've always played that AoO is reset at the beginning of your turn. Players DO take AoO during their turn. Say that during your turn, you absolutely need to run past a grunt in order to grapple a wizard before he can cast a spell-You will provoke an AoO from the grunt when you run past him. The grunt you are running past does not want you to grapple the wizard, so he tries to trip you for his AoO... but he doesn't have improved trip so he provokes an AoO from you. I've seen that Exact scenario happen numerous times.
Radijs 04-17-07, 11:34 AM	I changed my mind to agree with Olshanski_home.
Edymnion 04-17-07, 12:46 PM	AoO are based on the character's action, not an arbitrary decision of seconds. They "reset" when the character's turn comes back up, and they get to act again.
Someone 04-17-07, 01:35 PM	I vaguely remember this topic coming up last month or so, and yeah, I think that was the answer that was arrived at.
The_Ditto 04-18-07, 09:03 AM	At the beginning of the character's turn ... whether or not they actually get an action or not. Example Corner case coming up : :D BoB Has Combat Reflexes, Dex 16. ie 4 AoOs per "round". Bob is surprised by some kobolds (darn those kobolds). Initiave rolls: Kobolds: 18 Bob: 10 Surprise Round: Bob has 4 AoOs. Kobolds take partial actions, and try to surround Bob ... they draw 3 AoOs. Bob sucks .. and misses all attacks ... :P Bob's initiative comes up and his AoOs "reset" - even though he gets no actions in the surprise round. Normal Rounds: Kobolds go again, and all attempt to grapple him. He takes 4 AoOs .... Note if his AoOs hadn't reset in the Surprise Round on his initiative, he would only get 1 AoO in this round ... Cheers!! :tiphat: this is also true if the character is stunned, dazed, paralyzed, etc ... It might not seem like an issue, but look at durations of precisely 1 round ... Bob takes AoOs ... is stunned for 1 round ... misses his turn ... (but his AoOs still reset). On the opponent's turn - he is no longer stunned ... and from that point on, can continue to take AoOs .. (they didn't reset on the opponen't sturn, they reset on Bob's turn ... even though he didn't get an action ... just that the Stun condition didn't allow him to take AoOs ...
Nom 04-18-07, 10:13 AM	Actually, Bob doesn't have an initiative in the surprise round. He only rolls init once the surprise round is over.
Frugal 04-18-07, 10:27 AM	Also, you're flat-footed during a surprise round and can't make AoO's.
Merestil Haye 04-18-07, 10:41 AM	Also, you're flat-footed during a surprise round and can't make AoO's.Combat Reflexes asked me to tell you it would like a word outside. Since Bob has Combat Reflexes, he may make AoOs when flatfooted.
Frugal 04-18-07, 10:57 AM	Combat Reflexes asked me to tell you it would like a word outside. Since Bob has Combat Reflexes, he may make AoOs when flatfooted. D'oh, I swear there's a general law for these boards that whenever someone appears to be missing/ignoring a general rule that it's actually because a specific exception is in play.
Marcus Majarra 04-18-07, 02:34 PM	I would agree with the general consensus that AoO allotment resets at the beginning of a character's turn, but there's the border case of Combat Reflexes that presents a problem (since it allows for the character to make AoOs when flat-footed, including before the character has first acted in combat). I see two consistent solutions: 1) The character with Combat Reflexes is allowed his full allotment of AoOs per turn before his turn comes up, and this figure resets when the character's turn comes up. 2) The character with Combat Reflexes is allowed his full allotment of AoOs per turn before his turn comes up, and this figure resets on the character's second turn. I prefer the latter option, since it doesn't allow for the character to perform more AoOs than normal per turn.
JustinA 04-18-07, 02:48 PM	I would agree with the general consensus that AoO allotment resets at the beginning of a character's turn, but there's the border case of Combat Reflexes that presents a problem (since it allows for the character to make AoOs when flat-footed, including before the character has first acted in combat). I see two consistent solutions: 1) The character with Combat Reflexes is allowed his full allotment of AoOs per turn before his turn comes up, and this figure resets when the character's turn comes up. 2) The character with Combat Reflexes is allowed his full allotment of AoOs per turn before his turn comes up, and this figure resets on the character's second turn. I prefer the latter option, since it doesn't allow for the character to perform more AoOs than normal per turn. I don't understand what you're attempting to do here. The problem Combat Reflexes creates would seem to be specifically in a surprise round where the character with Combat Reflexes is being surprised. The problem is that this can create a situation where the character can go two full rounds without getting his AoOs reset. For example, say Bob has Combat Reflexes: Opponent: Init 20 Bob: Init 10 The opponent gets surprise. Bob is supposed to get X number of AoOs per round, but since Bob doesn't get a turn until the second round of combat, if we only reset Bob's AoOs at the beginning of Bob's turn, Bob only gets X number of AoOs for two full rounds of action. Your solution actually makes this worse. Now Bob's AoOs don't reset until the third round of combat. Instead of getting X AoOs per round, Bob is getting X/3 AoOs for the first three rounds of combat. Basically, I see two scenarios: 1. We don't make any change. AoOs reset at the beginning of Bob's turn. This means that, if Bob is surprised, he's going to need to make those AoOs last a little longer. 2. We roll initiative for Bob in the surprise round. He doesn't get a turn, but his AoOs reset on that initiative count. This can create the odd scenario where Bob can take twice his normal number of AoOs per round before the surprise round even comes to an end -- but that's actually no different than what can happen during any other round of combat. The important thing is that Bob can't take more than his number of AoOs per round between each of his turns (even if one of those turn is "virtual"). I'd lean towards solution #1 for a RAW ruling, since -- per RAW -- you don't even role for Bob's initiative during the surprise round if he's being surprised. But since, in practice, everybody rolls for initiative when combat starts without worrying about it, I'd say solution #2 is easily instituted in practice.
Frugal 04-18-07, 03:04 PM	Actually, the issue comes up during a normal combat with no surprise. You're normally flatfooted until your first turn in combat but combat reflexes allows you to make AoO's when you're flatfooted. So suppose a situation where Bob has CR and rolls really low for initiative. He could theoretically make a number of AoO's while flatfooted and then they reset at the beginning of his round, which means it could be possible for other creatures to provoke AoO's after Bob, but on the same round and for Bob to get up to twice his number of AoO's in a single round. However, I'm not 100% sure this is an "issue" as he's then out of AoO's until his next action.
JustinA 04-18-07, 05:45 PM	He could theoretically make a number of AoO's while flatfooted and then they reset at the beginning of his round, which means it could be possible for other creatures to provoke AoO's after Bob, but on the same round and for Bob to get up to twice his number of AoO's in a single round. Right. But this sequence can happen all the time during combat. The important thing is that Bob always gets X number of AoOs in any 1 round span of time measured from the start of Bob's turn until the end of Bob's next turn. Combat Reflexes just lets Bob get a span of time before his turn when he can take X number of AoOs, as well. Which is why I'm not too concerned about Bob only getting X number of AoOs across both the surprise round and the entire first round of combat (if he rolls low on initiative): It's a consistent resolution. And, after all, he got surprised and he rolled low on initiative. Now, let's make this trickier: Readied actions and delayed turns. In the case of a delay I think the resolution is clear: They reset at the beginning of your turn. If you then decide to delay your turn, it makes no difference: When you take that turn later on, it's the same turn. Your AoOs don't reset again. And, by extension, I'd use the same ruling for readied actions, although this is a little less clear-cut. Of course, in all of this, we still don't have an actual ruling from the RAW. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Marcus Majarra 04-18-07, 06:20 PM	I can see how the situation you brought up can be problematic. In all honesty, I had forgotten that you can be in a position where your opponents acts twice before you do. I'll suggest, as a correction to my second proposal, that AoOs reset when the character's initiative comes up in the sequence, regardless of whether or not he can act on it. Delaying is not an issue, since your delayed turn occurs after you arrive at the desired initiative and it only becomes your initiative after that. Same would go for readying. The end result is that neither delaying or readying resets your AoOs beyond the time at which your original initiative came up. Of course, there's always the solution of resetting AoOs at the beginning of every combat round, which would be consistent with the RAW on AoOs, but this is an approach that always screws over the last character to act in every round, and makes combat seem chopped up and less linear.
Leilond 04-19-07, 03:19 AM	We are confusing "flat-footed" with "surprise round" 1) You're "flat-footed" until you make your take your first turn 2) A surprise round happen when ONLY someone roll for initiative and can do a single "Standar action". Characters that do not roll are ALSO flat-footed, but they're more than simply "flat-footed" A character with combat reflex can do AoO when he's flat-footed (as written on the rules) but CANNOT DO NOTHING during a surprise round because surprised character do not roll for initiative at all Example The goblin Grick surprise the fithter Redgar (with combat reflex) The goblin (and only the goblin) roll for inititative: 18 Grick can do a single STANDART ACTION and Redgar cannot use any AoO and lose the Dex In the second round Redgar roll for initiative: 8 Grick can do a normal actions (Standar+Movement or Full) Redgar is still flat-footed but now he can do his AoO that RESET when his turn to act come out
tos_shai_hulud 04-19-07, 03:36 AM	We are confusing "flat-footed" with "surprise round" 1) You're "flat-footed" until you make your take your first turn 2) A surprise round happen when ONLY someone roll for initiative and can do a single "Standar action". Characters that do not roll are ALSO flat-footed, but they're more than simply "flat-footed" A character with combat reflex can do AoO when he's flat-footed (as written on the rules) but CANNOT DO NOTHING during a surprise round because surprised character do not roll for initiative at all Example The goblin Grick surprise the fithter Redgar (with combat reflex) The goblin (and only the goblin) roll for inititative: 18 Grick can do a single STANDART ACTION and Redgar cannot use any AoO and lose the Dex In the second round Redgar roll for initiative: 8 Grick can do a normal actions (Standar+Movement or Full) Redgar is still flat-footed but now he can do his AoO that RESET when his turn to act come out While I understand your confusion on the matter, you are attributing meaning to something that is not a game mechanic. Should you decide to house rule it that way, you may, but by the RAW, it is not the case. Here are the SRD entries which govern this mechanic: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. So, unaware characters are flat-footed and do not get to act, but there is no game mechanic for "do not get to act". That is not a glossary term, nor does it have any effect other than denying them the ability to roll into initiative and denying them a standard action. Attacks of opportunity are not determined by ability to act during a surprise round. They are determined by a character's alertness. A character that is flat-footed cannot make attacks of opportunity. A character with Combat Reflexes can make attacks of opportunity when flat-footed. That is the only game mechanic at work in this situation.
The_Ditto 04-19-07, 08:14 AM	the RAW may sitpulate that one does not roll initiative in the surprise round if surprised, however, I think I'm going to continue doing it "my way" .. that is, everyone rolls initiative, and we just skip the initiative of those who are surprised. Seems to me, it "solves" a whole heck of a lot of corner cases ... :tiphat: But agreed .. seems the rules are a bit "vague" in this department ... :D
Marcus Majarra 04-19-07, 10:40 AM	Actually, I looked over the surprise rules, and while they do indicate that non-surprised parties roll for initiative before the surprise round starts, there's no mention of when suprised parties actually do roll for surprise.
The_Ditto 04-19-07, 10:44 AM	Actually, I looked over the surprise rules, and while they do indicate that non-surprised parties roll for initiative before the surprise round starts, there's no mention of when suprised parties actually do roll for surprise. Kewl .. I hadn't looked it up and was accepting that claim for the face value .. thanks .. :tiphat:
Frugal 04-19-07, 11:27 AM	Personally, I'd be inclined to roll initiative all at once since I'd rather just establish the order once. But I'd agree that anyone who was surprised doesn't get a turn in the surprise round. That would mean that creatures with combat reflexes can still make AoO's during the surprise round (as they can make them while flatfooted) and during the 1st round of combat before their action but their AoO's don't reset until their turn on the 1st combat round. I think this captures the spirit of the surprise round not rolling initiative for surprised creatures but helps expedite establishing the initiative order.
olshanski_home 04-19-07, 11:31 AM	I agree with Frugal. If you are surprised, you do not act in the surprise round, and thus your AoO are not reset. I do roll initiative immediately, but only the people who are not surprised can act during the surprise round.
The_Ditto 04-19-07, 01:36 PM	Personally, I'd be inclined to roll initiative all at once since I'd rather just establish the order once. But I'd agree that anyone who was surprised doesn't get a turn in the surprise round. That would mean that creatures with combat reflexes can still make AoO's during the surprise round (as they can make them while flatfooted) and during the 1st round of combat before their action but their AoO's don't reset until their turn on the 1st combat round. I think this captures the spirit of the surprise round not rolling initiative for surprised creatures but helps expedite establishing the initiative order. I see your point ... I'll still respectively disagree ... and stay with the "reset the AoOs on the surprise round initiative when that character would have gone .. " It's a catch-all solution that works equally for: - surprise round / flat-footed - stunned / dazed, etc. - unconscious creatures healed and brought back into the battle - any other odd-ball scenario that arises ;)
Frugal 04-19-07, 02:23 PM	I see your point ... I'll still respectively disagree ... and stay with the "reset the AoOs on the surprise round initiative when that character would have gone .. " It's a catch-all solution that works equally for: - surprise round / flat-footed - stunned / dazed, etc. - unconscious creatures healed and brought back into the battle - any other odd-ball scenario that arises ;) Well by RAW, you don't have an initiative established in the surprise round. Like i said, I prefer to establish initiative once rather than have to roll some of it and then roll the rest after the surprise round and figure it all out again so I'd roll it all at once. But in your example then the creature with combat reflexes could theoretically get a full set of AoO's during the surprise round and then another full set before his action in the 1st round. In my setup he only gets 1 full set from the start of combat until his 1st action. In your other examples the creature does still have a "turn" they're just extremely limited in what they can do. For instance, an unconscious/dying creature rolls to stabilise on his action.
JustinA 04-19-07, 02:57 PM	Of course, there's always the solution of resetting AoOs at the beginning of every combat round, which would be consistent with the RAW on AoOs, but this is an approach that always screws over the last character to act in every round, and makes combat seem chopped up and less linear. Actually, that approach doesn't screw anyone over. The last guy to go in the round is an excellent example of that. Compare him in the two scenarios: 1. He goes the entire first round of combat and then, at the beginning of his turn, his AoOs reset. 2. He goes the entire first round of combat and then, immediately after his turn, his AoOs reset. Actually, I looked over the surprise rules, and while they do indicate that non-surprised parties roll for initiative before the surprise round starts, there's no mention of when suprised parties actually do roll for surprise. DMG, pg. 22: "If so, the character or party that is aware gets to take a standard action before initiative is rolled, while the unaware character or party does nothing. [...] After this action, both sides make initiative checks to determine the order in which the participants act." What the rules actually don't give you, AFAICT, is any clear indication of how you're supposed to adjudicate the order of actions during the surprise round when "Some Creatures on One or Both Sides Aware" (pg. 23): It says that they can take standard actions before the main action starts (presumably referring back to the rules on pg. 22), but since neither location says "roll for initiative" there's no way to resolve the question of, "Who goes first?" Common sense, of course, suggests that initiative should be rolled. But is it rolled only for those who can act on the surprise round and then everyone rerolls initiative after the surprise round (which is what a literal reading of the rule on pg. 22 would imply)? This whole section of rules has been sloppy ever since 3rd Edition came out.
Nom 04-19-07, 08:28 PM	What the rules actually don't give you, AFAICT, is any clear indication of how you're supposed to adjudicate the order of actions during the surprise round when "Some Creatures on One or Both Sides Aware" (pg. 23):PH pg 137: "Any combatants aware of their opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. ...".
JustinA 04-19-07, 10:28 PM	PH pg 137: "Any combatants aware of their opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. ...". That works nicely. Thanks for finding that. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
The_Ditto 04-20-07, 08:46 AM	Well by RAW, you don't have an initiative established in the surprise round. By RAW ... it's not perfectly clear .. Marcus has already pointed that out ... so be careful about claiming "RAW" in this regard ... actually, just read Justin's post on the quote from DMG .. go figure .. I've told myself before to read all posts in the thread before responding ... *sigh* ... :D Your interpretation? ok ... fair. RAW? States both that: blah blah blah ... - at the beginning of combat - everyone rolls initiative. - combat can begin with a surprise round - therefore everyone rolls initiative at beginning of surprise round also - in the surprise round section - it clarifies that those aware roll for initiative. What's not clear: more blah blah blah ... - if ONLY those aware roll for initiative . - if combat "begins" after the surprise round RAW doesn't "support" either case ... it's not perfectly clear, and interpretation can go either way ... as stated, just read Justin's post ... so above isn't perfect ... ;) Like i said, I prefer to establish initiative once rather than have to roll some of it and then roll the rest after the surprise round and figure it all out again so I'd roll it all at once. Ditto here ... I definitely prefer this method ... regardless of RAW, RAI, or official word from WotC .. :tiphat: But in your example then the creature with combat reflexes could theoretically get a full set of AoO's during the surprise round and then another full set before his action in the 1st round. In my setup he only gets 1 full set from the start of combat until his 1st action. Yep ... I don't really see it as a problem ... I actually think that my way represents it correctly ... he's supposed to get 4 AoOs (for example) per round ... and that's true even for a partial round ... In your other examples the creature does still have a "turn" they're just extremely limited in what they can do. For instance, an unconscious/dying creature rolls to stabilise on his action. Agreed ... this quote from the SRD clarifies it ... Inaction: Even if you can’t take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter. I'm just pulling that in, and trying to keep things consistent ... I don't see unaware/flat-footed as any different (mechanically) than "stunned/dazed" ... you can't take an action ... you don't act on your initiative .... they seem to act - mechanically - identically ... So I apply the same rules ... easier to remember, easier for everyone to understand ... :D