Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kolyana 02-11-07, 01:53 PM	A player in our group last night announced that 2 weapon fighting was completely useless based on the penalities you have to endure and when compared to a single weapon used in 2 hands with power attack. The situation came up when one of our fighter-types (using a 2 handed sword and power attack) effectively doubled his damage. Another player then puzzled: with the minuses for two weapon fighting, not using weapons of the same size, and having to focus/specialize in both weapons while dual weapon fighitng, there is really no advantage to the latter; everyone may as well go the two-handed-weapon and power attack route. I can't help but feel that my group is missing something with the rules here and I'm about to jump into a few of the feats to see if I can spot a mistake that we may be making, but does anyone have an opinion on the pros and cons of 2 weapon fighting?
CharlieRock 02-11-07, 01:56 PM	Two weapon fighting is keen for types that don't have shield proficiency. Like ninjas :D (or monks)
Sildatorak 02-11-07, 01:58 PM	The advantages of TWF are basically that you can get additional damage like sneak attack, favored enemy bonuses, insightful strike, specialization damage etc. twice. The other minor advantage is that you have less "waste" damage when you kill a creature, but if you are a two-handed fighter that can be cured by taking Cleave. Basically TWF is a good choice for rogues, swashbucklers, and possibly rangers, but that is about it.
Gedrin 02-11-07, 02:02 PM	It's also good for anyone who has a pair of Elemental Damage (fire/thundering...whatever) type weapons. Actually, anyone who has a lot Bonus Damage based on their weapons (high +X weapons) can do well with TWF
DarkRhystar 02-11-07, 02:07 PM	It's also good for anyone who has a pair of Elemental Damage (fire/thundering...whatever) type weapons. Actually, anyone who has a lot Bonus Damage based on their weapons (high +X weapons) can do well with TWF But then you've spent money augmenting an extra weapon that the THF guy would have spent on other stuff.
weasel0 02-11-07, 03:40 PM	TWF guy has 2, 2k gp weapons with 2 differing abilities or even the same one(two flamestrikes). With the THF, he has to pay 4k for the same effect and he can't double the same(only one flamestrike + something else). costs may not be right, but the idea is.
Crimson_Concerto 02-11-07, 03:58 PM	TWF is good if your classes give you a large source of bonus damage that applies per attack. A good example of this is Sneak Attack from the Rogue. Otherwise, I don't think I would bother from an optimization standpoint. However, TWFing looks cool, and if I want to play a Swashbuckler and think TWFing would look cool for it, why shouldn't I go for it?
Kolyana 02-11-07, 05:05 PM	Thanks guys. It seems that my fellow players conclusion that TWF isn't worth it is largely true ... unless you're playing something where the damage bonuses per weapon or due to special abilities kick in. In Edition II I used to see some of my players going with two short swords and such and prove themselves to be real buzz-saws, but nowadays with 3.5 it seems that they'd just be better off taking one sword, weilding it in 2 hands and adding up their strength bonus and Power Strike bonus for more average damage. Thanks for the feedback, though ... I can see where it would be useful, it's just changed from previous editions ... the flavor is a little different.
philnicau 02-11-07, 05:55 PM	All of the mechanical aspects aside Two Weapon Fighting looks so Cool, think about Dritzz, Anakin in Revenge of the Sith, The Centaur in Narnia.
CaoSlayer 02-11-07, 06:08 PM	A fighter dual wielding two vorpal weapons +4/+5 is something fearsome, specially with the power critical feat (+4 to confirm criticals). My best recomendation isnt going just with TWF but also with THW at once, if you get a double weapon, you can use it while charging in two hands for the bonus damage and then use the TWF furry. Rangers can be beasts with TWF because they dont need a high dex for getting the feats (ignore prerequisites) so they can dump dex a bit in favor of maxing str and dont having to waste a feat on weapon finesse and being able to use heavier weapons with the right feat.
Artector 02-11-07, 06:13 PM	Another thing to consider. What about the Shield/Sword Two-Weapon Style? You'll end up with a higher defense in the least.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-11-07, 06:15 PM	Well, I am building a rogue with the "Telling Blow" feat. He will TWF with Kukris (of course!).
Qwicksilver 02-11-07, 06:24 PM	twf to me seems like it'll be less desirable, from a mechanics standpoint mind you, because of the fact that even if they do as much damage as the barbarian in more hits, DR comes into play. I've been thinking of ways to encourage twfers, but other than the ways already listed, it seems that a straight twf fighter and a straight thf fighter will have the thf fighter come with the upper hand. Although, there are some weapon enhancements that trigger upon a critical, so if we're talking about "the thf fighter will spend his money on better stuff", well he doesn't have access to a 15-20 crit keen flaming burst rapier that deals extra flaming burst damage on a consistent basis, does he? I don't know, maybe it doesn't help.
Artector 02-11-07, 06:29 PM	Not to mention the evilness of hitting with two Wounding weapons versus 1.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-11-07, 06:30 PM	The Tiger Claw maneuvers in the Tome of Battle make two-weapon fighting more effective for non-sneak attack types, giving you the ability to pull off various fancy (and potentially very nasty) tricks with them.
Qwicksilver 02-11-07, 06:33 PM	Actually you know i was thinking the other day about how some classes value equipment more than levels. I found myself commenting to my dm that i'd rather stay at my level and get an extra +1 to my scythe or have boots of flying, an extra magic attribute to my scythe, etc. It'd be cool if there was a way mechanically, and logistically to sacrifice xp for gp. I've also been pondering about what effect having the keen option and the improved crit feat stack would do. It feels very game-mechanics damaging to me, but i was just wondering what would happen, and of course the 12-20 crit range for a dual wielding rapier fighter came to mind, as well as a18-20 X4 crit range for my (currently wielded) scythe comes to mind. Still it'd be interesting to see the finesse typed weapons crit so easy. It seems to me that it would benefit the low base damage, typically twf weapons the most
Hack and Smasher 02-11-07, 06:38 PM	Two weapon fighting with rogues is quite effective as to the rest of the suggestions i not really convieced. Fact of the matter twfing is in my option fine, its got a coolness and its used often enough to be worth while.
was_fired 02-11-07, 06:38 PM	Elemental damage and criticals for TWF are highly overrated. Your usual candidate for TWF is a rogue who has an average BaB and lots of extra damage. Now the rogue has two major problems when attacking: getting sneak attack, getting through resistances, and hitting in the first place. Elemental enhancements don't help any of these. Elemental resistance ends up being exceedingly common at high levels negating the additional damage (although it helps against most creatures that are immune to sneak attacks as they tend to lack as many elemental resistances as outsiders). Critical hits only matter if your bonus damage gets multiplied (such as craven or favored enemy) but in the case of the rogue you get no such benefit. It doesn't help you hit at all for obvious reasons if your against an enemy you can't use sneak attack against odds are you also won't be able to critical against. So instead of a +1 Flame Burst Keen weapon your normally better off with a +4 Weapon. Just remember the golden rule of min/maxing: Once you have a lot of something and not much of something else focus on the thing you have less of. In this case attack bonus rather than damage since you can't deal damage unless you hit.
AJ53 02-11-07, 06:38 PM	Tempest, Dervish. 'nuff said.
Krusk 02-11-07, 07:29 PM	Wounding weapons. generally any attack that relies on lots of attacks for damage. Like sneak attack, sudden strike ect. Two weapons with wounding =8 attacks a round. Thats a lot of con loss. People arent fond of loosing 8 con round.
Oakspar77777 02-11-07, 07:32 PM	Most people have already mentioned the real reason for TWF: more attacks for when damage is based on something other than brawn. That said, it can also improve the number of hits as well. Attacking with two weapons give you a 10% (-2) chance to hit. But, you get two attacks. So, as long as you still have a 10% chance to hit (note that would be a hit on a 16 with a single attack) you are MORE likely to hit at all with two attacks. Example: A foe you need a 15 to hit. (30% chance to hit). Single attack = 1 X 30% = 30% TWF attacks = 2 X 20% = 40% Since most foes fall into the 30-70% range at appropriate CRs, most of the time the TWFer will hit more often. Also, critical hits. TWF double the likelyhood of getting a critical threat while lowing the chance to confirm it. Most of the time this means more critical hits. Why do you think Drizzel uses two Scimitars? 18X2 critical hits means a 30% chance for a critical threat EVERY ROUND. Add that to critical damage additions (like flame burst, etc) and you can see the benefit. It is not the end-all of feat trees, but there definately is benefit to it.
allenchan 02-11-07, 07:37 PM	Thanks guys. It seems that my fellow players conclusion that TWF isn't worth it is largely true ... unless you're playing something where the damage bonuses per weapon or due to special abilities kick in But the same is true with THF. THF isn't really worth it unless you have a high enough attack bonus to take the penalty from power attack and still reliably hit. For cahracters with neither remarkably high stat, they might favor a shield instead, or a characer with a high dex and moderate strength might favor a bow. There's almost always an "Unless" clause.
DarkNick 02-11-07, 09:39 PM	Example: A foe you need a 15 to hit. (30% chance to hit). Single attack = 1 X 30% = 30% TWF attacks = 2 X 20% = 40% I think 2 x 20% actually gives you a 36% chance of hitting at least once in a round. probability of a hit and miss = 0.2x0.8+0.8x0.2 = 0.32 probability of a hit and a hit = 0.2x0.2 = 0.04 therfore total probability of a hit in any round = 0.36 i.e. 36% chance. Now purely based on weapon damage, criticals excluded - a fairly typical weapon damage for two weapon fighting is 1d6 for both weapons, two handed weapon might be a d10. Average damage from 1d6 = 3.5 Average damage from 1d10 = 5.5 average damage per round you can expect for the two handed weapon = 5.5x0.3 (i.e. 30% chance hitting a round) = 1.65 damage average damage per round for the two weapon fighter = 0.32x3.5 + 0.04x(3.5x2) = 1.12 + 0.28 = 1.4 damage Even excluding strength, in this case a twohanded weapon will do more damage on average.
Andrew 02-12-07, 01:07 AM	Mathematically, as others have said, the big benefit of TWF is when you have bonus damage or carrier effects that trigger off of every hit. Another benefit is that in increases your odds of getting any hit. There is a lot to be said for the satisfaction of simply having a more steady contribution to the fight.
Salla 02-12-07, 01:16 AM	And sometimes, the only reason you need to do something in a game is because you think it's cool. :) Optimal? No. Cool? Most people I know think so. :)
spectralphoenix 02-12-07, 01:26 AM	I think 2 x 20% actually gives you a 36% chance of hitting at least once in a round. probability of a hit and miss = 0.2x0.8+0.8x0.2 = 0.32 probability of a hit and a hit = 0.2x0.2 = 0.04 True, but hitting twice means you do twice (give or take) as much damage. So you're effectively hitting 40% of the time. OP: And keep in mind that you can always use a double weapon or matched pair (possibly with Oversized TWF) and only take one set of specialization feats. Is it strictly as powerful as THF for a traditional fighter with good stats? Probably not. Is it a viable option? Definitely. And as mentioned, rogues with 10d6 SA damage and 8 attacks per round are scary.
Elemental_Elf 02-12-07, 02:13 AM	Two Weapon Fighting looks cool. Who cares if it does slightly less damage than a person wielding a Great Sword? TWF is just cool. By your logic no one should ever use anything that doesn't do standard damage. I mean why Monkey Grip yourself a Large Great Axe, when you could just Power Attack with a Medium Great Axe? Why would any one do this you ask? Well that's simple, An Orc running around on the battle field looks oh so much cooler when he's swinging an Axe taller than he is! The crux of your problem is that which do you (and your group) prefer - Cool or Optimum. That's what it comes down to. IMO, I go for cool every time! :D
Nathreet 02-12-07, 04:30 AM	I figured this out a while back after much, much calculating. TWF almost always sucks, even for rogues <gasp>. Oh, and THF sucks too <double gasp>. People underestimate the value of a nice magic shield. After many computer simulations I found shield AC trumps TWF or THF hands down. Not to mention the many TWF penalties/restrictions that nickel & dime your power away (even for rogues): -2 AB, off hand weapon is light, must pay extra if you want a 2nd magic weapon, etc. But that's running solo simulations. If you have a melee character that for some strange reason doesn't get attacked, or if over 50% of the damage you take is magical (where AC doesnt apply), then TWF/THF may be worth it. Those same sims showed that a good melee fighter should dump about 40% of his treasure into AC items, even at high levels: armor, shield, ring of protection, ioun stone. But get an amulet of health not an amulet of natural armor. That's assuming 75% of the damage he takes is physical. Past a certain amount of non-physical damage the simulation does a complete 180 and tells you to spend very little on AC items.
CaoSlayer 02-12-07, 04:52 AM	So you needed a simulator for knowing that having a good AC agaisnt melee is good but bad against fireballs? I personally I would invest more money on a 50% miss chance item than in an extra +5 AC.
Kragg Bonemeal 02-12-07, 10:19 AM	Also consider theme of your game... if it is an urban adventure against many humanoids, TWF isn't so bad. Humanoids have a limit of AC, and those that are big/bad casters, you should have a tank to really lay into them. So the TWF guy can really puncture some kidneys hard in this campaign. If you are dungeon crawlers, going against many dragons, lizardmen, undead, etc, etc... the TWF guy has problems. At this point, THF becomes popular. There is also a reason the pictures of the "Dragonslayer" knight include the big 2H sword stuck through the skull of the dragon after the fight.
Salla 02-12-07, 12:59 PM	Sword'n'board is nice, but in general, I subscribe to the 'the best defense is a good offense' school of thought. ;)
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-12-07, 08:55 PM	After many computer simulations ... Awesom. However, I am building a halfling rogue X/warblade 3. His shtick will eventually be: TWF with kukris, improved crit (crit on a 16-20), warblade Int bonus to confirm a crit (+3), sneak attack damage on a critical (Telling Blow), and "Blood in the Water" stance (+1 attk & damage after every crit - accumulates over the entire encounter, not just on each opponent). I'll find an item to reduce his size to Tiny (bonuses to AC and to hit). Each hit will do one point of ordinary damage ... until the Blood in the Water bonuses start piling up. This boy will be a hairy-toed ball of destruction and tricky to hit, too. How does your simulation do with that? :D
Sildatorak 02-12-07, 10:41 PM	I'll find an item to reduce his size to Tiny (bonuses to AC and to hit). [snip] How does your simulation do with that? :D Tiny creatures have reach of 0 ft.
Sinis 02-12-07, 10:58 PM	Mechanically, it's dubious. A lot of people say that it's good when you have a little something extra (like sneak attack). I'm sure someone could mathematically show it's exact mechanical worth. But, why pick anything that is (or could be) mechanically inferior? Role-play of course! If I'm a gladiatorial pit fighter, you better believe I'm gonna be holding a net and a trident, or a rapier and a whip, or some bizarre combination of weapons (in fact, once I held a trident and a short sword, and wore armor resembling a giant bib). ... You get the picture. Just go along with your character concept, and it wont matter. Who really cares how much less damage a TWF does than a THF anyway?
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-13-07, 05:05 PM	Tiny creatures have reach of 0 ft. Yes, that's right. You have to move onto the same square as the opponent.
James18 02-15-07, 04:41 AM	You mean tumble into their space. What about Two weapon defense. I like the shield bashing feats with TWF. Had a dwarf do that. Did more damage with the shield just didn't enchant the attack part of it. AND got the ac bonus. Had another 8 monk 2 fighter Dressed in black full plate wielding a halberd. I loved him. Everyone charged into 5ft melee getting the AoO thinking they were safe. Bam! head but to the head, knee to the groin. Getting hit just as hard as the halberd. 1d10. I loved it.
Epicweaver 02-15-07, 09:24 AM	TWF almost always sucks, even for rogues <gasp>. Oh, and THF sucks too <double gasp>. People underestimate the value of a nice magic shield. Um, greatsword+buckler pwns you.
alangriffith 03-01-07, 09:00 PM	To draw all the answers together and add my own input... Two weapon fighting may be suboptimal, but it doesn't stop there. Improved Two-weapon fighting gives yet more attacks, as do prestige classes like the dervish and the tempest. Alternatively you could two-weapon fight with a weapon and improved shield bash, to have your shield bonus on top of many attacks. Then there are the previously-mentioned tactical feats which specifically involve two-handed fighting styles. You can use the feat 'Two-weapon Rend' to increase your damage in a twf build. There is also feat which lets you hit with both weapons on a charge, which gives you more damage, status effects or sneak attack (surprise round charge anyone?) in the first round. Anything like weapon focus, weapon specialisation, melee weapon mastery or weapon supremacy provides bonuses twice if you fight with two of the same type of weapon. Bonus damage (not dice) also applies on each hit, examples of such damage being bardic music and favoured enemy bonuses. The PHB 2 has a number of feats which give special effects when you hit or critical with slashing, piercing or bludgeoning weapons. More attacks mean more chances to critical, more chances for the enemy to fail the save or whatever. Two weapon fighting is a much longer chain than two-handed fighting with power attack, and it may be suboptimal in the middle, but it can rock out by the end. The way enchantment costs rise exponentially on a single weapon mean that at higher levels you can often have two medium magic weapons for the price of one major. When dealing with bonus damage dice, this puts you ahead of the two-handed weapon guy. The greatly increased critical chance with lots of attacks with two weapons can be very useful with effective but rare criticals (x3, x4, burst weapons, vorpal) as well as with large critical ranges (lots of double damage). It also can be lethal for rogues with telling blow (a previously mentioned feat which allows you to do your sneak attack damage on a critical) For undead (who ignore all the critical effects bar elemental bursts and vorpal for vampires), a pair of disrupting weapons (either perm enchanted or using the wonderful cleric spell 'disrupting weapon') can force a big scary undead to make so many will saves it has to roll a 1, or dust a large number of weak undead.
Tuah 03-01-07, 09:04 PM	Imagine a monk/sneak-attacking-class with two-weapon fighting feats, weapon finesse, greater flurry, and +5 speed+keen+defense monk weapons. That makes for a lot of damage right there. And a lot of chances to try again. ;)
Someone 03-02-07, 12:35 AM	Or, you could just get a double weapon and have the best of both. Need more attacks? Wield it as two. Need more damage? Wield it as a two-handed.
Zumarai 03-02-07, 07:30 AM	And remember that with a two-handed weapon, armour spikes and Improved Buckler Defence you can combine THF, S&B and TWF. As for TWF, I think it can be huge. One of the players in the campaign I'm running is a Half-Orc Barbarian 2/Ranger 9 and with our good choice of feats for his character he's ganking massive ass. Good Feats (of course as a ranger he gets Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for free): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Dual Strike Two-Weapon Pounce Double Hit Two-Weapon Rend
lastknightleft 03-02-07, 04:40 PM	Or you know, rather than bother with permutations just fight, our fighter is taking the TWF and she is kicking so much :censored: even when she isn't optimized, now give her a +3 Unholy two bladed (each end) sword and she pound right through all those pesky soldiers in the war she's involved in. The fact is despite the arguments it's just as solid a build
UAMDB 03-02-07, 04:43 PM	I did not read everything in here, but i had a TWF. We stopped the game at 12th level. He was deadly in combat. If you take the correct number of feats then you can out damage a THW. If you take Oversized TWF you can use two one-handed weapons with no penalties. Which means power attack works on both weapons. Also you could get TW Rend which deals 1d6+1 1/2 str. Tempest level takes away the penalties for two weapons which means you hit more that a THF. I dont have the time nor desire to do the math, but a TWF if done properly can out perfom a THW.
TheDarkLord 03-04-07, 01:17 AM	How are you getting 8 attacks? Even with a +16 bab you'd still only get 7. Four for your BAB, and three for the TWF, ITWF, and GTWF tree. Speed would allow you to get one extra attack I guess, but that's a weapon special ability. What I have done is redid the TWF tree. TWF is the same, ITWF gives you all your iterative attacks, and GTWF removes the final -2 penalty. Also a new Feat I have added is this. Perfect Ambidexterity [General] You are no longer considered to have an off hand attack, rather you have an extra attack at the same Bonus as the original. Prerequisite Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 19, BAB +11. Benefit You no longer suffer a penalty to your strength modifier on your off hand attack. Normal Your strength modifier is cut in half when determining damage for your off-hand attack
FrostWolf 03-04-07, 01:26 AM	Arcane strike works much better with TWF. Burn a third level spell to add +3 to hit and 3d4 damage per attack. not too shabby. Also, if your using a two handed weapon, you get less chances to crit than a TWF-er. Hmm... Maybe my Duskblade will go TWF. Gotta see how that all works fistly.
CaoSlayer 03-04-07, 06:52 AM	Arcane strike works much better with TWF. Burn a third level spell to add +3 to hit and 3d4 damage per attack. not too shabby. Also, if your using a two handed weapon, you get less chances to crit than a TWF-er. Hmm... Maybe my Duskblade will go TWF. Gotta see how that all works fistly. Arcane strike only works with one weapon, so you must spend two spells.