Wild Shape + Advanced HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wild Shape + Advanced HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pezz
02-06-08, 11:08 PM Ok, this one should be fairly simple, i hope.

Is it possible to wildshape into a creature with an advanced HD?

for example, in the MM, the wolf is stated as a 2HD creature. It's advancement is 2-3 (Medium), 4-6 (Large).
Could a 5th level druid wildshape into a 3HD wolf (with the standard in the MM being 2HD)?
Would, a 5 Druid/2 Master of Many Forms (which allows access to Large forms) be able to then WildShape into a 6HD Large Wolf?
deduke
02-07-08, 07:02 AM The simple answer is no he can't, I however couldnt find the direct quote in the SRD.
Jackmojo
02-07-08, 03:52 PM The closest thing I can find that would stop it is the rules in wildshape saying you turn into an average member of the species (which the advanced ones are not). Some DMs might allow it, as it might be more reasonable to let the druid power up forms he has used for awhile then having them need to go out and find new creatures when they level up.

I'd allow it personally.

Jack
toucanbuzz
02-07-08, 04:10 PM Depends. If you view "Advanced" forms as "Templates", then the druid cannot since Wildshape follows the rules for "alternate form", and under "alternate form" rules one cannot assume a form under a template (see SRD). Since advanced creatures increase both hit dice and size, I'd see those as "template" versions.

I'm not completely sure it would matter though unless advanced creatures gain an increase in ability scores. A druid gains the new physical scores (Str, Dex, Con) but still keeps his hit points, base attack bonus, and skills, so a 2 HD or 3HD wolf form would have no impact on him at all.
Merestil Haye
02-07-08, 04:19 PM I'm not completely sure it would matter though unless advanced creatures gain an increase in ability scores. A druid gains the new physical scores (Str, Dex, Con) but still keeps his hit points, base attack bonus, and skills, so a 2 HD or 3HD wolf form would have no impact on him at all.All creatures gain a feat every 3rd HD, and an ability score every 4th HD. Without exception.

Creatures with 4HD or more have already had those ability score increases applied to their array.
toucanbuzz
02-07-08, 05:37 PM In any case, the more I look at advanced, the more I think it's a template to increase hit dice and abilities, which makes it unavailable for wildshape purposes.
ZiggZagg
02-07-08, 05:47 PM So whenever you level up, do you apply the advanced template? :P
Pezz
02-08-08, 03:18 AM I was looking at it more for the change in size (and thus Str/Dex) while keeping the natural abilities (trip, scent, etc) and partially as a flavour thing, since my druid's companion is a wolf who just reached 4HD and became large. But yeah, that makes sense. i saw it more as they were gaining levels in the animal class than as a template, but from the looks of things, it is up to DM fiat with a tendency towards no.
toucanbuzz
02-08-08, 10:09 AM I can't imagine your DM nixing your idea; you aren't really abusing any rules and gaining any advantage as there's higher HD forms you could assume over an "advanced" form. Just tossing out the possible counterargument!

(As for when players level, they don't increase in size...at least they're not supposed to...unless they've been drinking too much at Whiskey Willey's Tavern again...)
wonlee76
02-08-08, 02:17 PM I was looking at it more for the change in size (and thus Str/Dex) while keeping the natural abilities (trip, scent, etc) and partially as a flavour thing, since my druid's companion is a wolf who just reached 4HD and became large. But yeah, that makes sense. i saw it more as they were gaining levels in the animal class than as a template, but from the looks of things, it is up to DM fiat with a tendency towards no.

Druid animal companions do not get the benefit of the size increase that advanced animals would get for extra HD. It was in a FAQ and I believe the reasoning behind that interpretation is the benefits that an animal companion gets is explicitly listed under the Druid's class feature. No more, no less.
thephantom
02-11-08, 03:30 PM It is not necessary to wild shape in an advanced animal, because the druid retains his own BAB, Base saves, etc... Only physical abilities change and few others.
Pezz
02-11-08, 04:05 PM Advanced HD usually means larger size, which means +8 Str, +4 Con, and higher damage dice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pezz 02-06-08, 11:08 PM	Ok, this one should be fairly simple, i hope. Is it possible to wildshape into a creature with an advanced HD? for example, in the MM, the wolf is stated as a 2HD creature. It's advancement is 2-3 (Medium), 4-6 (Large). Could a 5th level druid wildshape into a 3HD wolf (with the standard in the MM being 2HD)? Would, a 5 Druid/2 Master of Many Forms (which allows access to Large forms) be able to then WildShape into a 6HD Large Wolf?
deduke 02-07-08, 07:02 AM	The simple answer is no he can't, I however couldnt find the direct quote in the SRD.
Jackmojo 02-07-08, 03:52 PM	The closest thing I can find that would stop it is the rules in wildshape saying you turn into an average member of the species (which the advanced ones are not). Some DMs might allow it, as it might be more reasonable to let the druid power up forms he has used for awhile then having them need to go out and find new creatures when they level up. I'd allow it personally. Jack
toucanbuzz 02-07-08, 04:10 PM	Depends. If you view "Advanced" forms as "Templates", then the druid cannot since Wildshape follows the rules for "alternate form", and under "alternate form" rules one cannot assume a form under a template (see SRD). Since advanced creatures increase both hit dice and size, I'd see those as "template" versions. I'm not completely sure it would matter though unless advanced creatures gain an increase in ability scores. A druid gains the new physical scores (Str, Dex, Con) but still keeps his hit points, base attack bonus, and skills, so a 2 HD or 3HD wolf form would have no impact on him at all.
Merestil Haye 02-07-08, 04:19 PM	I'm not completely sure it would matter though unless advanced creatures gain an increase in ability scores. A druid gains the new physical scores (Str, Dex, Con) but still keeps his hit points, base attack bonus, and skills, so a 2 HD or 3HD wolf form would have no impact on him at all.All creatures gain a feat every 3rd HD, and an ability score every 4th HD. Without exception. Creatures with 4HD or more have already had those ability score increases applied to their array.
toucanbuzz 02-07-08, 05:37 PM	In any case, the more I look at advanced, the more I think it's a template to increase hit dice and abilities, which makes it unavailable for wildshape purposes.
ZiggZagg 02-07-08, 05:47 PM	So whenever you level up, do you apply the advanced template? :P
Pezz 02-08-08, 03:18 AM	I was looking at it more for the change in size (and thus Str/Dex) while keeping the natural abilities (trip, scent, etc) and partially as a flavour thing, since my druid's companion is a wolf who just reached 4HD and became large. But yeah, that makes sense. i saw it more as they were gaining levels in the animal class than as a template, but from the looks of things, it is up to DM fiat with a tendency towards no.
toucanbuzz 02-08-08, 10:09 AM	I can't imagine your DM nixing your idea; you aren't really abusing any rules and gaining any advantage as there's higher HD forms you could assume over an "advanced" form. Just tossing out the possible counterargument! (As for when players level, they don't increase in size...at least they're not supposed to...unless they've been drinking too much at Whiskey Willey's Tavern again...)
wonlee76 02-08-08, 02:17 PM	I was looking at it more for the change in size (and thus Str/Dex) while keeping the natural abilities (trip, scent, etc) and partially as a flavour thing, since my druid's companion is a wolf who just reached 4HD and became large. But yeah, that makes sense. i saw it more as they were gaining levels in the animal class than as a template, but from the looks of things, it is up to DM fiat with a tendency towards no. Druid animal companions do not get the benefit of the size increase that advanced animals would get for extra HD. It was in a FAQ and I believe the reasoning behind that interpretation is the benefits that an animal companion gets is explicitly listed under the Druid's class feature. No more, no less.
thephantom 02-11-08, 03:30 PM	It is not necessary to wild shape in an advanced animal, because the druid retains his own BAB, Base saves, etc... Only physical abilities change and few others.
Pezz 02-11-08, 04:05 PM	Advanced HD usually means larger size, which means +8 Str, +4 Con, and higher damage dice.