Wishing for a Feat / Supernatural ability / Skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wishing for a Feat / Supernatural ability / Skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DouglasN
09-09-07, 03:25 AM Hello again,

once more something about a Wish ... I made that two threads because it seems to me that these are really different problems.

I was under the impression that somewhere, there was a rule on whishing for a Feat or Supernatural Ability (1/day) ... but the FAQ is silent on the issue ... was that wishful thinking?

If not, what about wishing for a skill? It's probably against rules, but how many ranks would you personally grant if someone chose to sort of "trade an innate ability bonus +1 for a skill" ?

Thanks for your responses, still yours

-Doug
heffroncm
09-09-07, 03:31 AM I wouldn't allow any of the above. Wish is open enough to abuse without adding anything to it.
Kamin_Majere
09-09-07, 09:07 AM I would allow a player to use wish to gain a feat

I most likely would not allow a player to wish for a supernatural ability

I would allow a player to wish for skills/skill points. Either in the form of +1 Inheriant bonus to all class skills, or a single +10 inheriant bonus in a single skill.

I feel that someone willing to burn 5k XP could reasonablly ask for things like that. I mean the bonus' that your getting (when you normally would have access to the Wish spell) arent going to influence much normally.

Mostly i feel its a waste of Wish to go for skill points as things like Luck stones and competency items are a bit more cost preductive at that point, but if your willing to burn 5K XP to get it as an inheriant bonus over a luck or compentency bonus i wouldnt stop you.

The only real problem is the Supernatural ability, there are simply to many retarded ones out there that would skew a PC's power even if only usable 1/day.
Sildatorak
09-09-07, 08:55 PM I definitely wouldn't allow a supernatural ability, but I might allow a spell-like one. Basically I would treat it as the "wish for a magic item" function, except the PC is the magic item.
Merestil Haye
09-10-07, 04:37 AM I'd allow Wishing for a feat. Multiple such Wishes would attract an additional xp cost.

I haven't considered spell-like or supernatural abilities, so I won't say yay or nay until I have considered the issue. I'd have to compare any proposed SLA to Innate Spell - a feat that grants an SLA.

I won't allow wishes to get skill points since the characters can buy skill points with xp anyway (subject to some limitations). There would be no point (unless the Wish netted them a ridiculous amount of skill points).
Anathema
09-10-07, 12:53 PM I won't allow wishes to get skill points since the characters can buy skill points with xp anyway (subject to some limitations).

They can? Where does it say that?
Merestil Haye
09-10-07, 03:18 PM They can? Where does it say that?It's a houserule. But, given the existence of that houserule it's not worth them casting Wish for skillpoints, when the same xp invested directly would get them a lot of skillpoints.

I acquired it from Synar the Godkiller who credited it to Incenjucar (I think that's the right spelling).

If you're interested, I'll PM you the details.
heffroncm
09-11-07, 06:38 AM So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game.
Merestil Haye
09-11-07, 07:07 AM So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game.The simplest interpretation of the Wish for a skill increase is that it increases the skill ranks. In which case, the limit of "no greater than the maximum ranks the creature can have" is a natural one.

If you mean "an inherent bonus to a skill," no more than +5. Inherent bonuses are not allowed to increase beyond +5, if the DM allows inherent bonuses to skills at all.
Kamin_Majere
09-11-07, 08:55 AM So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game.

Since when do Inherent stack?

Wishes (cast in quick succesion) can give you a larger inherent bonus but if you cast a wish spell for +1 INT and then an hour later did the same thing you would not get a +2 INT you would simply get another +1 INT that wouldnt stack with the first one.

So in the post I made you could raise a single skill by 10 (as i didnt allow for multipule castings of wish to increase that number) or you could increast all class skills by 1.
eamon
09-11-07, 08:50 PM Inherent bonuses do not stack. The ability of multiple wishes cast in succession to grant higher inherent bonuses isn't normal stacking, and do note that you need to cast em in quick succession. If inherent bonuses always stacked... that limitation would not apply.

I think a +1 skill bonus on all class skills is quite a bit, but might be wishable. I'd not tell my players in advance whether I allow it though ;-)... I certainly would not allow a +10 inherent bonus on any single skill. That's really pushing it, even for multiple wishes - it's too focused. I would potentially allow an inherent bonus on all skills tied to a particular attribute, however. Any potentially stackable wishes are dangerously abusable, so feats, while they sound OK, should be carefully considered before granting multiple feats with multiple wishes.

Then again... if someone has multiple wishes to burn he's probably not too weak anyhow ;-).
Kamin_Majere
09-12-07, 07:09 AM I certainly would not allow a +10 inherent bonus on any single skill. That's really pushing it, even for multiple wishes - it's too focused.

Then again... if someone has multiple wishes to burn he's probably not too weak anyhow ;-).

Why not? If someone is willing to actually cast Wish to get a +10 to a skill thats a huge inventment for not a whole lot of gain. About the worst thing it can do is give someone a single extra Epic spell per day if it was used in spell craft. But as not many people play epic its really a moot point.

If you were to simply craft a wonderous item that gave you a +10 bonus (even though a +20 bonus is possible by the time you can cast wish) it will cost alot less than 5K XP. Technically you could wish for 25K in gold and buy magical items that each give you a +10 bonus in diffrent skills.

you can jack your skills up really high doing things like this... but i mean your 17+ level. Not a whole lot makes sense anymore.
i mean
DM: What do you do now
Rogue: I slight of hand the castle
DM: so your going to steal from the kings home... not very smart.
Rogue: No you misunderstood, i'm going to steal the entire castle. [rolls dice] total with modifiers 107... did it work?
DM: :confused: :eek: :weep:
eamon
09-12-07, 11:54 AM However, Magic Items grant competence bonuses and don't stack with eachother. Further, you can't automatically craft a +10 competence bonus simply because the DMG guidelines suggest a pricing system - they're only guidelines. Perhaps if the wish granted a competence bonus (nothing odd about that anyhow), it would be fine. Actually, that's what I would do ;-), and allow it.
heffroncm
09-12-07, 04:58 PM After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+
Kamin_Majere
09-12-07, 05:49 PM After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+

So instead of 5000 XP you would make them pay 5400 XP? I mean with all the options for raising skills why is it so bad? I mean your the DM you can always not let them make the Competence bonus item.

At 17th level you have 20 ranks in a skill, and with 40K and 1600XP you can craft a +20 competance item. So wishing for +10 isnt game breaking. You just be a good DM and tell them that's all they get.

If you let them get it via a wish, your making them feel special and doing something they want to do. So when it comes to them trying something you dont like you can say no to them and they wont feel as bad about it due to you giving them something else they wanted (and with the wish paying alot more for it)

I do have a question though. At 17th level what skill's do you find so powerful that having a +10 bonus from a wish pushes it over the edge?
I mean you can already use everything with UMD by that point. Spell craft isnt useful anymore until level 21+ for epic spells. Hide and move silently are being constantly defeated by blind sight and the like.
eamon
09-17-07, 12:50 PM After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+

So you would charge x2 for the slotless factor, but if it's an inherent bonus as opposed to the normal competence bonus, I'd also charge at least a further x2 for the non-standard modifier, since it stacks so easily.

Look for example at the cost of Daazzix's Vest (sp?) which grant's +5 Spell resistance - stackable, and is far far more expensive than a normal SR 5 (nonstackable) item.
eamon
09-17-07, 01:29 PM So instead of 5000 XP you would make them pay 5400 XP? I mean with all the options for raising skills why is it so bad? I mean your the DM you can always not let them make the Competence bonus item.

At 17th level you have 20 ranks in a skill, and with 40K and 1600XP you can craft a +20 competance item. So wishing for +10 isnt game breaking. You just be a good DM and tell them that's all they get.

Wish suggests that non-magical items of up to 25k can be made. I'd venture that magical items should be bound by more restrictive limitations rather than less restrictive limitations. A +10 slotless item would be around 20k, so if a wish is granting a competence bonus, it's within reason. If you're granting an inherent bonus, it's not, since those stack.

The point is that wish does have limits, and by loosening them, since the spell is so open-ended, you risk truly absurd situations.

For example, skill's are limited. Take a fighter, that want's to reach a handy square in battle. If he has a mithral full-plate and a dex of 16, then he has an effective +0 tumble modifier. With a +20 competence bonus item, he can fail the "tumble through opponents square" check (which has a DC of 25). With a wish on top of it, for +30, he can essentially avoid all AoO's do to movement, and with only five ranks (+35) he can even do pretty much everything at full speed. By allowing the extra +10, characters don't need to take ranks at all (or merely 1 to be "trained") for many checks. That changes balance.

Rogues might be able to UMD many things at such a level. However, not everyone can, and by allowing an effective +30 from wish+item, it means that anybody can UMD almost anything with just one rank. That can be quite an interesting ability to have... especially to gain access to certain self-only buff's.
Merestil Haye
09-17-07, 02:58 PM Wish suggests that non-magical items of up to 25k can be made. I'd venture that magical items should be bound by more restrictive limitations rather than less restrictive limitations. A +10 slotless item would be around 20k, so if a wish is granting a competence bonus, it's within reason. If you're granting an inherent bonus, it's not, since those stack.Wish does have a limitation for magic items. It costs extra xp.

For example, skill's are limited. Take a fighter, that want's to reach a handy square in battle. If he has a mithral full-plate and a dex of 16, then he has an effective +0 tumble modifier. With a +20 competence bonus item, he can fail the "tumble through opponents square" check (which has a DC of 25). With a wish on top of it, for +30, he can essentially avoid all AoO's do to movement, and with only five ranks (+35) he can even do pretty much everything at full speed.[/quote]Poor example.

A fighter with 16 Dex in mithral fullplate cannot tumble for two reasons. Firstly, he has (according to your figures) no ranks. No ranks means that he is unable to use the skill. Secondly, he's slowed by armour, so cannot use the skill. (Unless he's Dwarven, of course).

An item worth 90k (such as the +30 competence item) is affordable by an 17th level character. I don't therefore worry about a character of that level Wishing for an item of that cost. It'll cost him about two-thirds of a level. And to use it he'll have to spend some skill points.
eamon
09-18-07, 07:26 AM Wish does have a limitation for magic items. It costs extra xp.
Quite right. That's a sufficient limitation indeed.

A fighter with 16 Dex in mithral fullplate cannot tumble for two reasons. Firstly, he has (according to your figures) no ranks. No ranks means that he is unable to use the skill. Secondly, he's slowed by armour, so cannot use the skill. (Unless he's Dwarven, of course).

An item worth 90k (such as the +30 competence item) is affordable by an 17th level character. I don't therefore worry about a character of that level Wishing for an item of that cost. It'll cost him about two-thirds of a level. And to use it he'll have to spend some skill points.

The skill points necessary to be considered "trained" are pretty negligible. I didn't consider the speed reduction, so indeed this example only applies to dwarves ;-). Tumbling dwarves in adamantine full-plate, say :D ...

My bad, it was a bad example! How about an adamantine full-plate-wearing human who uses UMD with only one rank to activate a wand of freedom of movement (if you're of the interpretation that that should remove armor limitations), and then uses tumble with only one rank?

In any case, it doesn't effect the core of the issue, namely that unlimited skill bonuses are exploitable, so that inherent bonuses are tricky, and that you should grant it as a competence bonus to avoid these issues.
Kamin_Majere
09-18-07, 07:37 AM My bad, it was a bad example! How about an adamantine full-plate-wearing human who uses UMD with only one rank to activate a wand of freedom of movement (if you're of the interpretation that that should remove armor limitations), and then uses tumble with only one rank?
I'd absolutely allow it... assuming the PC was willing to tumble around butt naked. If its removing the penalities from the items then it typically removes the items :D

In any case, it doesn't effect the core of the issue, namely that unlimited skill bonuses are exploitable, so that inherent bonuses are tricky, and that you should grant it as a competence bonus to avoid these issues.

Well thats true, but the wish isnt the problem here. Its the problem in what skill points allow you to do.

I mean at 17th level if your wanting to you should already be able to do ANYTHING that is a class skill to a level that no one on the planet can cope with reasonablly. See my example above where the rogue slight of hands the Castle. Its not even that hard to do (thats the sad thing).

And anyway 17-20 is the precurser to Epic so weird things happen, and if you actually go into epic then all bets are off as with out a DM that will make calls on things the game degraded into mindlessness.
eamon
09-18-07, 12:03 PM I'd absolutely allow it... assuming the PC was willing to tumble around butt naked. If its removing the penalities from the items then it typically removes the items :D Well, freedom of movement only removes movement limitations - it certainly doesn't remove armor, web's, water, or anything else which happens to be the cause of the limitation.

I mean at 17th level if your wanting to you should already be able to do ANYTHING that is a class skill to a level that no one on the planet can cope with reasonablly. See my example above where the rogue slight of hands the Castle. Its not even that hard to do (thats the sad thing).

And anyway 17-20 is the precurser to Epic so weird things happen, and if you actually go into epic then all bets are off as with out a DM that will make calls on things the game degraded into mindlessness.

It's not that hard to do if you're willing to spend a lot of ranks. With only items, you'll still run into limitations (if you want to do this for multiple skills, anyhow), which is as should be. Wish shouldn't render irrelevant the spending of ranks; that's why it shouldn't simply stack with everything out there (since the mentioned +10 bonus is about as much as a cross-class skill maxxed out).

In any case, I don't think it should stack (you're just asking for abuse then), but it's not extremely important. You don't have to make it a competence bonus if you don't want to.
Merestil Haye
09-18-07, 03:39 PM Freedom of Movement removes restrictions on movement from magical effects. I don't think armour counts.
eamon
09-20-07, 09:52 AM Freedom of Movement removes restrictions on movement from magical effects. I don't think armour counts.

I agree that armor isn't particularly logical, but freedom of movement relies heavily on DM interpretation and I wouldn't raise an eyebrow if a DM did allow it.

Freedom of movement definitely allows freedom from more than just magical effects. You can attack underwater (entirely normal, non-magical water) without normal penalties. You can escape from a grapple automatically (from an entirely nonmagical grapple, if you want :D). It "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally", whatever that means.

Anyhow, this isn't particularly on-topic, and seeing how freedom of movement is particularly open, let's not get to bogged down in it ;).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DouglasN 09-09-07, 03:25 AM	Hello again, once more something about a Wish ... I made that two threads because it seems to me that these are really different problems. I was under the impression that somewhere, there was a rule on whishing for a Feat or Supernatural Ability (1/day) ... but the FAQ is silent on the issue ... was that wishful thinking? If not, what about wishing for a skill? It's probably against rules, but how many ranks would you personally grant if someone chose to sort of "trade an innate ability bonus +1 for a skill" ? Thanks for your responses, still yours -Doug
heffroncm 09-09-07, 03:31 AM	I wouldn't allow any of the above. Wish is open enough to abuse without adding anything to it.
Kamin_Majere 09-09-07, 09:07 AM	I would allow a player to use wish to gain a feat I most likely would not allow a player to wish for a supernatural ability I would allow a player to wish for skills/skill points. Either in the form of +1 Inheriant bonus to all class skills, or a single +10 inheriant bonus in a single skill. I feel that someone willing to burn 5k XP could reasonablly ask for things like that. I mean the bonus' that your getting (when you normally would have access to the Wish spell) arent going to influence much normally. Mostly i feel its a waste of Wish to go for skill points as things like Luck stones and competency items are a bit more cost preductive at that point, but if your willing to burn 5K XP to get it as an inheriant bonus over a luck or compentency bonus i wouldnt stop you. The only real problem is the Supernatural ability, there are simply to many retarded ones out there that would skew a PC's power even if only usable 1/day.
Sildatorak 09-09-07, 08:55 PM	I definitely wouldn't allow a supernatural ability, but I might allow a spell-like one. Basically I would treat it as the "wish for a magic item" function, except the PC is the magic item.
Merestil Haye 09-10-07, 04:37 AM	I'd allow Wishing for a feat. Multiple such Wishes would attract an additional xp cost. I haven't considered spell-like or supernatural abilities, so I won't say yay or nay until I have considered the issue. I'd have to compare any proposed SLA to Innate Spell - a feat that grants an SLA. I won't allow wishes to get skill points since the characters can buy skill points with xp anyway (subject to some limitations). There would be no point (unless the Wish netted them a ridiculous amount of skill points).
Anathema 09-10-07, 12:53 PM	I won't allow wishes to get skill points since the characters can buy skill points with xp anyway (subject to some limitations). They can? Where does it say that?
Merestil Haye 09-10-07, 03:18 PM	They can? Where does it say that?It's a houserule. But, given the existence of that houserule it's not worth them casting Wish for skillpoints, when the same xp invested directly would get them a lot of skillpoints. I acquired it from Synar the Godkiller who credited it to Incenjucar (I think that's the right spelling). If you're interested, I'll PM you the details.
heffroncm 09-11-07, 06:38 AM	So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game.
Merestil Haye 09-11-07, 07:07 AM	So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game.The simplest interpretation of the Wish for a skill increase is that it increases the skill ranks. In which case, the limit of "no greater than the maximum ranks the creature can have" is a natural one. If you mean "an inherent bonus to a skill," no more than +5. Inherent bonuses are not allowed to increase beyond +5, if the DM allows inherent bonuses to skills at all.
Kamin_Majere 09-11-07, 08:55 AM	So, as inherent bonuses stack, how high would you let someone Wish their Spellcraft? I'm curious for the purpose of Epic Spellcasting, which is balanced directly on the idea that you can't attain stupid high Spellcraft scores at level 21. I use "balanced" liberally, as Epic Spellcasting out and out destroys anything else in the game. Since when do Inherent stack? Wishes (cast in quick succesion) can give you a larger inherent bonus but if you cast a wish spell for +1 INT and then an hour later did the same thing you would not get a +2 INT you would simply get another +1 INT that wouldnt stack with the first one. So in the post I made you could raise a single skill by 10 (as i didnt allow for multipule castings of wish to increase that number) or you could increast all class skills by 1.
eamon 09-11-07, 08:50 PM	Inherent bonuses do not stack. The ability of multiple wishes cast in succession to grant higher inherent bonuses isn't normal stacking, and do note that you need to cast em in quick succession. If inherent bonuses always stacked... that limitation would not apply. I think a +1 skill bonus on all class skills is quite a bit, but might be wishable. I'd not tell my players in advance whether I allow it though ;-)... I certainly would not allow a +10 inherent bonus on any single skill. That's really pushing it, even for multiple wishes - it's too focused. I would potentially allow an inherent bonus on all skills tied to a particular attribute, however. Any potentially stackable wishes are dangerously abusable, so feats, while they sound OK, should be carefully considered before granting multiple feats with multiple wishes. Then again... if someone has multiple wishes to burn he's probably not too weak anyhow ;-).
Kamin_Majere 09-12-07, 07:09 AM	I certainly would not allow a +10 inherent bonus on any single skill. That's really pushing it, even for multiple wishes - it's too focused. Then again... if someone has multiple wishes to burn he's probably not too weak anyhow ;-). Why not? If someone is willing to actually cast Wish to get a +10 to a skill thats a huge inventment for not a whole lot of gain. About the worst thing it can do is give someone a single extra Epic spell per day if it was used in spell craft. But as not many people play epic its really a moot point. If you were to simply craft a wonderous item that gave you a +10 bonus (even though a +20 bonus is possible by the time you can cast wish) it will cost alot less than 5K XP. Technically you could wish for 25K in gold and buy magical items that each give you a +10 bonus in diffrent skills. you can jack your skills up really high doing things like this... but i mean your 17+ level. Not a whole lot makes sense anymore. i mean DM: What do you do now Rogue: I slight of hand the castle DM: so your going to steal from the kings home... not very smart. Rogue: No you misunderstood, i'm going to steal the entire castle. [rolls dice] total with modifiers 107... did it work? DM: :confused: :eek: :weep:
eamon 09-12-07, 11:54 AM	However, Magic Items grant competence bonuses and don't stack with eachother. Further, you can't automatically craft a +10 competence bonus simply because the DMG guidelines suggest a pricing system - they're only guidelines. Perhaps if the wish granted a competence bonus (nothing odd about that anyhow), it would be fine. Actually, that's what I would do ;-), and allow it.
heffroncm 09-12-07, 04:58 PM	After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+
Kamin_Majere 09-12-07, 05:49 PM	After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+ So instead of 5000 XP you would make them pay 5400 XP? I mean with all the options for raising skills why is it so bad? I mean your the DM you can always not let them make the Competence bonus item. At 17th level you have 20 ranks in a skill, and with 40K and 1600XP you can craft a +20 competance item. So wishing for +10 isnt game breaking. You just be a good DM and tell them that's all they get. If you let them get it via a wish, your making them feel special and doing something they want to do. So when it comes to them trying something you dont like you can say no to them and they wont feel as bad about it due to you giving them something else they wanted (and with the wish paying alot more for it) I do have a question though. At 17th level what skill's do you find so powerful that having a +10 bonus from a wish pushes it over the edge? I mean you can already use everything with UMD by that point. Spell craft isnt useful anymore until level 21+ for epic spells. Hide and move silently are being constantly defeated by blind sight and the like.
eamon 09-17-07, 12:50 PM	After doing some more reading, I'd let them wish for +10 to a skill, but make them pay the XP for a slotless magic item that does this. 5,000 XP is just too cheap for a +10 inherent skill, especially with what some of the skills can do for you at DC's of 40+ So you would charge x2 for the slotless factor, but if it's an inherent bonus as opposed to the normal competence bonus, I'd also charge at least a further x2 for the non-standard modifier, since it stacks so easily. Look for example at the cost of Daazzix's Vest (sp?) which grant's +5 Spell resistance - stackable, and is far far more expensive than a normal SR 5 (nonstackable) item.
eamon 09-17-07, 01:29 PM	So instead of 5000 XP you would make them pay 5400 XP? I mean with all the options for raising skills why is it so bad? I mean your the DM you can always not let them make the Competence bonus item. At 17th level you have 20 ranks in a skill, and with 40K and 1600XP you can craft a +20 competance item. So wishing for +10 isnt game breaking. You just be a good DM and tell them that's all they get. Wish suggests that non-magical items of up to 25k can be made. I'd venture that magical items should be bound by more restrictive limitations rather than less restrictive limitations. A +10 slotless item would be around 20k, so if a wish is granting a competence bonus, it's within reason. If you're granting an inherent bonus, it's not, since those stack. The point is that wish does have limits, and by loosening them, since the spell is so open-ended, you risk truly absurd situations. For example, skill's are limited. Take a fighter, that want's to reach a handy square in battle. If he has a mithral full-plate and a dex of 16, then he has an effective +0 tumble modifier. With a +20 competence bonus item, he can fail the "tumble through opponents square" check (which has a DC of 25). With a wish on top of it, for +30, he can essentially avoid all AoO's do to movement, and with only five ranks (+35) he can even do pretty much everything at full speed. By allowing the extra +10, characters don't need to take ranks at all (or merely 1 to be "trained") for many checks. That changes balance. Rogues might be able to UMD many things at such a level. However, not everyone can, and by allowing an effective +30 from wish+item, it means that anybody can UMD almost anything with just one rank. That can be quite an interesting ability to have... especially to gain access to certain self-only buff's.
Merestil Haye 09-17-07, 02:58 PM	Wish suggests that non-magical items of up to 25k can be made. I'd venture that magical items should be bound by more restrictive limitations rather than less restrictive limitations. A +10 slotless item would be around 20k, so if a wish is granting a competence bonus, it's within reason. If you're granting an inherent bonus, it's not, since those stack.Wish does have a limitation for magic items. It costs extra xp. For example, skill's are limited. Take a fighter, that want's to reach a handy square in battle. If he has a mithral full-plate and a dex of 16, then he has an effective +0 tumble modifier. With a +20 competence bonus item, he can fail the "tumble through opponents square" check (which has a DC of 25). With a wish on top of it, for +30, he can essentially avoid all AoO's do to movement, and with only five ranks (+35) he can even do pretty much everything at full speed.[/quote]Poor example. A fighter with 16 Dex in mithral fullplate cannot tumble for two reasons. Firstly, he has (according to your figures) no ranks. No ranks means that he is unable to use the skill. Secondly, he's slowed by armour, so cannot use the skill. (Unless he's Dwarven, of course). An item worth 90k (such as the +30 competence item) is affordable by an 17th level character. I don't therefore worry about a character of that level Wishing for an item of that cost. It'll cost him about two-thirds of a level. And to use it he'll have to spend some skill points.
eamon 09-18-07, 07:26 AM	Wish does have a limitation for magic items. It costs extra xp. Quite right. That's a sufficient limitation indeed. A fighter with 16 Dex in mithral fullplate cannot tumble for two reasons. Firstly, he has (according to your figures) no ranks. No ranks means that he is unable to use the skill. Secondly, he's slowed by armour, so cannot use the skill. (Unless he's Dwarven, of course). An item worth 90k (such as the +30 competence item) is affordable by an 17th level character. I don't therefore worry about a character of that level Wishing for an item of that cost. It'll cost him about two-thirds of a level. And to use it he'll have to spend some skill points. The skill points necessary to be considered "trained" are pretty negligible. I didn't consider the speed reduction, so indeed this example only applies to dwarves ;-). Tumbling dwarves in adamantine full-plate, say :D ... My bad, it was a bad example! How about an adamantine full-plate-wearing human who uses UMD with only one rank to activate a wand of freedom of movement (if you're of the interpretation that that should remove armor limitations), and then uses tumble with only one rank? In any case, it doesn't effect the core of the issue, namely that unlimited skill bonuses are exploitable, so that inherent bonuses are tricky, and that you should grant it as a competence bonus to avoid these issues.
Kamin_Majere 09-18-07, 07:37 AM	My bad, it was a bad example! How about an adamantine full-plate-wearing human who uses UMD with only one rank to activate a wand of freedom of movement (if you're of the interpretation that that should remove armor limitations), and then uses tumble with only one rank? I'd absolutely allow it... assuming the PC was willing to tumble around butt naked. If its removing the penalities from the items then it typically removes the items :D In any case, it doesn't effect the core of the issue, namely that unlimited skill bonuses are exploitable, so that inherent bonuses are tricky, and that you should grant it as a competence bonus to avoid these issues. Well thats true, but the wish isnt the problem here. Its the problem in what skill points allow you to do. I mean at 17th level if your wanting to you should already be able to do ANYTHING that is a class skill to a level that no one on the planet can cope with reasonablly. See my example above where the rogue slight of hands the Castle. Its not even that hard to do (thats the sad thing). And anyway 17-20 is the precurser to Epic so weird things happen, and if you actually go into epic then all bets are off as with out a DM that will make calls on things the game degraded into mindlessness.
eamon 09-18-07, 12:03 PM	I'd absolutely allow it... assuming the PC was willing to tumble around butt naked. If its removing the penalities from the items then it typically removes the items :D Well, freedom of movement only removes movement limitations - it certainly doesn't remove armor, web's, water, or anything else which happens to be the cause of the limitation. I mean at 17th level if your wanting to you should already be able to do ANYTHING that is a class skill to a level that no one on the planet can cope with reasonablly. See my example above where the rogue slight of hands the Castle. Its not even that hard to do (thats the sad thing). And anyway 17-20 is the precurser to Epic so weird things happen, and if you actually go into epic then all bets are off as with out a DM that will make calls on things the game degraded into mindlessness. It's not that hard to do if you're willing to spend a lot of ranks. With only items, you'll still run into limitations (if you want to do this for multiple skills, anyhow), which is as should be. Wish shouldn't render irrelevant the spending of ranks; that's why it shouldn't simply stack with everything out there (since the mentioned +10 bonus is about as much as a cross-class skill maxxed out). In any case, I don't think it should stack (you're just asking for abuse then), but it's not extremely important. You don't have to make it a competence bonus if you don't want to.
Merestil Haye 09-18-07, 03:39 PM	Freedom of Movement removes restrictions on movement from magical effects. I don't think armour counts.
eamon 09-20-07, 09:52 AM	Freedom of Movement removes restrictions on movement from magical effects. I don't think armour counts. I agree that armor isn't particularly logical, but freedom of movement relies heavily on DM interpretation and I wouldn't raise an eyebrow if a DM did allow it. Freedom of movement definitely allows freedom from more than just magical effects. You can attack underwater (entirely normal, non-magical water) without normal penalties. You can escape from a grapple automatically (from an entirely nonmagical grapple, if you want :D). It "enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally", whatever that means. Anyhow, this isn't particularly on-topic, and seeing how freedom of movement is particularly open, let's not get to bogged down in it ;).