With no spells known, can I still cast my bonus spell...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

With no spells known, can I still cast my bonus spell...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tichrimo
02-19-08, 11:08 PM Okay, bear with a bit of setup here...

Level 10 Bard with Charisma of 16. Gets 0 x 4th level spells per day, no bonus 4th level spells, and thus adds no 4th level spells to his spells known. So far, so good.

Then he puts on a Cloak of Charisma +2, bumping his Charisma to 18. Now he has a bonus 4th level spell. Does he get this spell slot, even though he has no spells known?

(Why does this matter? He has the Heighten Spell feat, and could use that slot with another of his lower-level spells.)
StevenO
02-19-08, 11:31 PM Without a doubt you'd get the bonus spell slot provided that the DM would give you the slot under "normal" conditions.

The spells known table may say you need a high enough CHA to get a spell known but the spells per day list just says 0 which means you can add your bonuses to that. Even if you require an item to get the needed ability score some DMs may even give you the Spells Known when you meet the requirement although you couldn't change them even if you lose the CHA.
Merestil Haye
02-20-08, 06:41 AM The enhanced ability gives you the additional bonus slot, whether you have a spell known or not. What use you put that to is up to you.

It is always legal to use a spell slot to cast a spell of a lower level than the slot, so at worst you're getting an additional casting of any one spell that you know. That's without considering the option of applying metamagic to spells that opens up with the higher level slot.
Tichrimo
02-20-08, 05:48 PM That was my thinking also -- just needed some reassurance I was on the right track.
Rood_Inverse
02-20-08, 08:09 PM And if you're a wizard?

You put a... something of intelligence on, and it grants you extra spells known, but with a "0" in the column. Like the bard. And, as a wizard, you've memorized those spells.

What happens to those spells when you take it off? Do you keep those spells until cast and not get them back, until the item is back on again? Like temp. hit points?
weasel0
02-20-08, 08:29 PM To the OP:Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

To Rood_Inverse:
I would rule when the item goes away, so does the ability to cast said extra spell(s). In fact, losing said slots counts as using(read-casting) the slot for purposes of needing to wait 24 hours since last prepared to rememorize something to said slot. It's the downside to using magic items to qualify for things. Lose the item, lose the function.
Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of
intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant
bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells
these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the
only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions
are skill points.
Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that
increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To
get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting
to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations
for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need
to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily
Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of
Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.)
If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell
slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you
have of the appropriate levels.
LSMFT
02-22-08, 03:40 PM And if you're a wizard?

You put a... something of intelligence on, and it grants you extra spells known, but with a "0" in the column. Like the bard. And, as a wizard, you've memorized those spells.Wizards don't have any columns with a 0 in them.

A level 10 bard has 0 4th-level spells per day, and with a high enough Cha (18+) he can add one bonus spell to that allotment. (As was covered above.)

A level 10 wizard has "-" (not 0) 6th-level spells per day. If he has (from any source) a 22+ Int, he cannot add his bonus 6th-level spell slot to the "-".

You may not have thought that, but I suspected you may have. If you didn't, sorry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tichrimo 02-19-08, 11:08 PM	Okay, bear with a bit of setup here... Level 10 Bard with Charisma of 16. Gets 0 x 4th level spells per day, no bonus 4th level spells, and thus adds no 4th level spells to his spells known. So far, so good. Then he puts on a Cloak of Charisma +2, bumping his Charisma to 18. Now he has a bonus 4th level spell. Does he get this spell slot, even though he has no spells known? (Why does this matter? He has the Heighten Spell feat, and could use that slot with another of his lower-level spells.)
StevenO 02-19-08, 11:31 PM	Without a doubt you'd get the bonus spell slot provided that the DM would give you the slot under "normal" conditions. The spells known table may say you need a high enough CHA to get a spell known but the spells per day list just says 0 which means you can add your bonuses to that. Even if you require an item to get the needed ability score some DMs may even give you the Spells Known when you meet the requirement although you couldn't change them even if you lose the CHA.
Merestil Haye 02-20-08, 06:41 AM	The enhanced ability gives you the additional bonus slot, whether you have a spell known or not. What use you put that to is up to you. It is always legal to use a spell slot to cast a spell of a lower level than the slot, so at worst you're getting an additional casting of any one spell that you know. That's without considering the option of applying metamagic to spells that opens up with the higher level slot.
Tichrimo 02-20-08, 05:48 PM	That was my thinking also -- just needed some reassurance I was on the right track.
Rood_Inverse 02-20-08, 08:09 PM	And if you're a wizard? You put a... something of intelligence on, and it grants you extra spells known, but with a "0" in the column. Like the bard. And, as a wizard, you've memorized those spells. What happens to those spells when you take it off? Do you keep those spells until cast and not get them back, until the item is back on again? Like temp. hit points?
weasel0 02-20-08, 08:29 PM	To the OP:Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. To Rood_Inverse: I would rule when the item goes away, so does the ability to cast said extra spell(s). In fact, losing said slots counts as using(read-casting) the slot for purposes of needing to wait 24 hours since last prepared to rememorize something to said slot. It's the downside to using magic items to qualify for things. Lose the item, lose the function. Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points. Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels.
LSMFT 02-22-08, 03:40 PM	And if you're a wizard? You put a... something of intelligence on, and it grants you extra spells known, but with a "0" in the column. Like the bard. And, as a wizard, you've memorized those spells.Wizards don't have any columns with a 0 in them. A level 10 bard has 0 4th-level spells per day, and with a high enough Cha (18+) he can add one bonus spell to that allotment. (As was covered above.) A level 10 wizard has "-" (not 0) 6th-level spells per day. If he has (from any source) a 22+ Int, he cannot add his bonus 6th-level spell slot to the "-". You may not have thought that, but I suspected you may have. If you didn't, sorry.