Wizard learning divine spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wizard learning divine spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ace_of_time
03-24-07, 12:12 AM One of my players wants to research divine spells for her wizard. (not just heal spells) ( it is my wife if makes a difference) If she does the research right and roll good should I let this happen? and is It against the rules?
Crimson_Concerto
03-24-07, 12:17 AM While the PHB text does seem to indicate that Wizards (or at least Sorcerers, iirc) could research spells off of their spell list, it's not quite what was intended. However, if the party lacks a divine caster, I would allow it so that the party could have all roles covered. Otherwise, I would ask the player in question (regardless of my relationship to them) to reconsider or at least better explain their motives.
Wraith7153
03-24-07, 12:20 AM Hell yes it's against the rules. Arcane and Divine magic kept seperate for a reason, wizards and sorcerers would be too powerful if they could take whatever cleric spells they wanted and vice versa, not to mention that the classes would be almost interchangeable. If she wants divine spells the simplest solution would be to have her take (a) level(s) in cleric, that shouldn't be too much to ask. Research means nothing as far as divine spells are concerned, they are granted by your diety after all thus requiring the connection to a diety that only levels in cleric can allow. Arcane spells require a thorough knowledge of the arcane arts, enough so to cost experience in the form of putting levels sorcerer or wizard.
Ace_of_time
03-24-07, 12:28 AM She has pointed out that there are some spells already that both can have. I was think maybe a feat. yes their is just two and one is a monk. She doesn't really have the wis score for cleric (10).
Neutronium_Dragon
03-24-07, 12:33 AM While they share some spells, that's because those spells are common to both themes.

Each spellcasting class has its own theme for the spells which are available to it. In the case of the wizard, most of the divine spells are out-of-theme and thus not appropriate for it. The ones that aren't are already on the wizard's list.
ShadowDragon8685
03-24-07, 12:33 AM Given that there's only two of them...

Let the Monk Gestalt as Monk/Cleric, and the Wizard gestalt as Wizard/Rogue.

Otherwise, one thing one of my DMs did, was let Wizards research Divine-only spells, at spell-level +1.

IE: Heal Light Wounds would be a Second Level Divine Spell.
Crimson_Concerto
03-24-07, 12:37 AM The Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane seems to be exactly what you're looking for. It can grant you knowledge of a single spell. It has some reastrictions but you can learn spells not on your class spells list, and you can indeed even learn other types of spells, so yes, using this feats, the wizard may learn one divine spell.

That being said, since you have only a two-person party, I would probably allow the wizard to fulfill both roles of arcane and divine caster at once. However, the Monk should probably get something nice too, since your party lacks a melee tank. I would consider giving the Monk full BAB or at least giving it a D10 HD so it can perform well in combat.

EDIT: I'd like to echo the above recommendation of using the gestalt rules to make this easier on you.
trapspringer
03-24-07, 12:38 AM There's a feat in CD called "arcane disciple" that lets a wizard or sorcerer (or bard...) add divine spells of a domain to their spell list. The character must share an alignment with his or her diety and he or she must choose a domain possesed by his or her diety.
Ace_of_time
03-24-07, 01:07 AM the monk doesn't really care about anything except not having to pay 50 gold to heall eveytime and refuses to muti-class. I even told him about the mon. training so he could gain levels in the monk class again. We just started a low power game and I don't want them to powerful by having two clases at once. I tried look through the book and the only thing I could find was that wizards can add scrolls to their spell book. It doesn't really so arcane spells and it doesn't say no so any where hince my problem. ( she has also just pointed out that their are alchemist heal slave that she could make with her craft if she just wanted heals for cheap.)
Crimson_Concerto
03-24-07, 01:10 AM I tried look through the book and the only thing I could find was that wizards can add scrolls to their spell book. It doesn't really so arcane spells and it doesn't say no so any where hince my problem.Oh, a Wizard can scribe anything she wants in her spellbook, but being able to cast it is a completely different matter.
Krusk
03-24-07, 02:10 AM point her to the archivist class in heroes of horror.

It is a divine based wizard using the cleric spell list. They use a book. Through reading the rules, it could be interpreted that they can scribe any divine spell to their spellbook. Domain spells are divine spells. Whip out spell compendium and read through the domain spells there. You can cast most arcane spells, and all divine spells.

That all is how our group ruled, because we were confused by the text, and if there is an inaccuracy in it we would definatly change it.

It mentions gaining cleric spells upon leveling, but may scribe any divine spell into prayerbook.
tos_shai_hulud
04-02-07, 12:11 AM When the cleric heals a character, this healing power is "conjured". Perhaps the tissue that was destroyed is conjured into place. Perhaps it is simply the divine power itself that is conjured. A wizard may not be able to conjure the divine power that would be necessary to enact the healing, but perhaps if he cast the spell in a different way, it would work for him. His arcane studies indicate that necromancy, the school of magic pertaining to life and death, can grant life and death. Perhaps he attempts (rather than conjuring the divine forces) to grant life to an ally. His spell is designed to pull positive energy and use it to grow the life that was lost in battle back into an ally. This would be similar to a cleric healing spell, but the mechanics of it would be entirely different. By this method, one could create a different set of healing spells that are wizard-only. They use knowledge of arcane forces to create the healing effect that clerics can do simply by calling forth the power of their deity and druids can do by tapping into the power of nature.
sciguy98
04-02-07, 03:25 AM Personally, I see no problem with the concept. If the character does the research and succeeds on the checks, then the rules support her casting arcane versions of divine spells. They should probably be renamed and anything requiring a Divine Focus should now require a material component (or Arcane focus if it already has a material cost).

I'd say that the rules are on her side, but every spell would be individually subject to your approval, as the rules state.

Of course, the spells would be arcane and be subject to spell failure, etc, just like any other arcane spell.
Wraith7153
04-03-07, 10:02 PM Divine spells are granted by a diety (they are prayed for each day) to thier loyal servants, their clerics. While an average adventurer may respect a diety because of the similarity of alignment, they can't hope to match a clerics dedication (which is why they're clerics and granted divine powers by their diety). A wizard can't channel divine power just as a cleric can't harness arcane energy and allowing them to do so without something in a D&D book is against the rules and unbalancing to the game.
Ace_of_time
04-03-07, 10:32 PM Divine spells are granted by a diety (they are prayed for each day) to thier loyal servants, their clerics. While an average adventurer may respect a diety because of the similarity of alignment, they can't hope to match a clerics dedication (which is why they're clerics and granted divine powers by their diety). A wizard can't channel divine power just as a cleric can't harness arcane energy and allowing them to do so without something in a D&D book is against the rules and unbalancing to the game.

I was typing about learning to cast divine spells using arcane magic not casting divine magic.
tos_shai_hulud
04-03-07, 11:12 PM As was I. I mentioned researching a necromantic version of the cure spells. I never did understand why it was conjuration in the first place. If it is necromancy to inflict wounds, why not necromancy to heal them?
weasel0
04-03-07, 11:58 PM Gestalt charaters really arn't all that powerful. Sure they have twice the options available, but they still only make 1 choice per round.
Wraith7153
04-04-07, 03:26 PM I was typing about learning to cast divine spells using arcane magic not casting divine magic.

I'm not sure that that's possible, at least not from a basic rules perspective but if you think it's what your game needs, that's your call as the DM. Within the bounds of my campaigns I find that the arcane spells are for arcane spellcasters and divine spells are for divine spellcasters and that that is how they should stay. That's just what works for my worlds and if your world needs some tweaking to the rules (or more than some as the case sometimes is) do it, the most important rule is that if you and your PCs are enjoying the game you're doing it right.
Ace_of_time
04-04-07, 08:45 PM See what has always bothered me about this is is say that divine can only cast of their own class list. ( it doesn't for wizards)
Aminvelos
04-05-07, 11:07 AM The complete Mage has already set precedent that clerics can cast wizard spells by sacrificing one domain. --Aka Divine Magcian

The only spells they are allowed to add are in abjuration, divination or necromancy. "Each time you gain the ability to cast a new level of cleric spells, you can add a single wizard spell to your cleric list".

I think this sets precedent for the reverse.

Sacrifice one school or perhaps two with the typical rules of inability to sacrifice divination and universal. You can add one 1st lvl abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell to your spell list. Each time you gain the ability to cast a new level of wizard spells, you can add a single cleric spell to your spell list in one of the afore mentioned schools.

-Class Wizard
Level 1st
Special Requirement: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank

This would be the response to the divine magician from the complete mage. However, since healing is conjuration no healing would be allowed.

If the wizard is willing to sacrifice 3 schools, I'd be willing to add conjuration spells to the list, maybe.

Another thing you might want to do is
By sacrificing the four other schools evocation, enchantment, illusion and transmutation you might be able to make a non-uber variant. You can pick any spells from the cleric or wizard list from divination, necromancy, abjuration, and conjuration schools. Other than that this individual should be treated as a wizard in all other respects.

Your the dm, you make the rules. Is allowing a wizard to research cleric spells against the suggested rules that wizards have set forth, yes! Can you make a variant that would not 'break' the game, yes!

Disclaimer: The following ideas above were inspired by the Complete Mage variant class. All variant ideas have not been tested and contain random various ideas with no true merit(testing)
Ace_of_time
04-05-07, 12:21 PM I found in the DM book where any spellcaster can research new spells off their own so I could just let her do that instead. I really just wanted to see what others feel about add spells to their spell books through scrolls. I'm really surprised about the number of people that think the world of D&D will end if a wizard can cast a arcane cure spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ace_of_time 03-24-07, 12:12 AM	One of my players wants to research divine spells for her wizard. (not just heal spells) ( it is my wife if makes a difference) If she does the research right and roll good should I let this happen? and is It against the rules?
Crimson_Concerto 03-24-07, 12:17 AM	While the PHB text does seem to indicate that Wizards (or at least Sorcerers, iirc) could research spells off of their spell list, it's not quite what was intended. However, if the party lacks a divine caster, I would allow it so that the party could have all roles covered. Otherwise, I would ask the player in question (regardless of my relationship to them) to reconsider or at least better explain their motives.
Wraith7153 03-24-07, 12:20 AM	Hell yes it's against the rules. Arcane and Divine magic kept seperate for a reason, wizards and sorcerers would be too powerful if they could take whatever cleric spells they wanted and vice versa, not to mention that the classes would be almost interchangeable. If she wants divine spells the simplest solution would be to have her take (a) level(s) in cleric, that shouldn't be too much to ask. Research means nothing as far as divine spells are concerned, they are granted by your diety after all thus requiring the connection to a diety that only levels in cleric can allow. Arcane spells require a thorough knowledge of the arcane arts, enough so to cost experience in the form of putting levels sorcerer or wizard.
Ace_of_time 03-24-07, 12:28 AM	She has pointed out that there are some spells already that both can have. I was think maybe a feat. yes their is just two and one is a monk. She doesn't really have the wis score for cleric (10).
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 12:33 AM	While they share some spells, that's because those spells are common to both themes. Each spellcasting class has its own theme for the spells which are available to it. In the case of the wizard, most of the divine spells are out-of-theme and thus not appropriate for it. The ones that aren't are already on the wizard's list.
ShadowDragon8685 03-24-07, 12:33 AM	Given that there's only two of them... Let the Monk Gestalt as Monk/Cleric, and the Wizard gestalt as Wizard/Rogue. Otherwise, one thing one of my DMs did, was let Wizards research Divine-only spells, at spell-level +1. IE: Heal Light Wounds would be a Second Level Divine Spell.
Crimson_Concerto 03-24-07, 12:37 AM	The Extra Spell feat from Complete Arcane seems to be exactly what you're looking for. It can grant you knowledge of a single spell. It has some reastrictions but you can learn spells not on your class spells list, and you can indeed even learn other types of spells, so yes, using this feats, the wizard may learn one divine spell. That being said, since you have only a two-person party, I would probably allow the wizard to fulfill both roles of arcane and divine caster at once. However, the Monk should probably get something nice too, since your party lacks a melee tank. I would consider giving the Monk full BAB or at least giving it a D10 HD so it can perform well in combat. EDIT: I'd like to echo the above recommendation of using the gestalt rules to make this easier on you.
trapspringer 03-24-07, 12:38 AM	There's a feat in CD called "arcane disciple" that lets a wizard or sorcerer (or bard...) add divine spells of a domain to their spell list. The character must share an alignment with his or her diety and he or she must choose a domain possesed by his or her diety.
Ace_of_time 03-24-07, 01:07 AM	the monk doesn't really care about anything except not having to pay 50 gold to heall eveytime and refuses to muti-class. I even told him about the mon. training so he could gain levels in the monk class again. We just started a low power game and I don't want them to powerful by having two clases at once. I tried look through the book and the only thing I could find was that wizards can add scrolls to their spell book. It doesn't really so arcane spells and it doesn't say no so any where hince my problem. ( she has also just pointed out that their are alchemist heal slave that she could make with her craft if she just wanted heals for cheap.)
Crimson_Concerto 03-24-07, 01:10 AM	I tried look through the book and the only thing I could find was that wizards can add scrolls to their spell book. It doesn't really so arcane spells and it doesn't say no so any where hince my problem.Oh, a Wizard can scribe anything she wants in her spellbook, but being able to cast it is a completely different matter.
Krusk 03-24-07, 02:10 AM	point her to the archivist class in heroes of horror. It is a divine based wizard using the cleric spell list. They use a book. Through reading the rules, it could be interpreted that they can scribe any divine spell to their spellbook. Domain spells are divine spells. Whip out spell compendium and read through the domain spells there. You can cast most arcane spells, and all divine spells. That all is how our group ruled, because we were confused by the text, and if there is an inaccuracy in it we would definatly change it. It mentions gaining cleric spells upon leveling, but may scribe any divine spell into prayerbook.
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 12:11 AM	When the cleric heals a character, this healing power is "conjured". Perhaps the tissue that was destroyed is conjured into place. Perhaps it is simply the divine power itself that is conjured. A wizard may not be able to conjure the divine power that would be necessary to enact the healing, but perhaps if he cast the spell in a different way, it would work for him. His arcane studies indicate that necromancy, the school of magic pertaining to life and death, can grant life and death. Perhaps he attempts (rather than conjuring the divine forces) to grant life to an ally. His spell is designed to pull positive energy and use it to grow the life that was lost in battle back into an ally. This would be similar to a cleric healing spell, but the mechanics of it would be entirely different. By this method, one could create a different set of healing spells that are wizard-only. They use knowledge of arcane forces to create the healing effect that clerics can do simply by calling forth the power of their deity and druids can do by tapping into the power of nature.
sciguy98 04-02-07, 03:25 AM	Personally, I see no problem with the concept. If the character does the research and succeeds on the checks, then the rules support her casting arcane versions of divine spells. They should probably be renamed and anything requiring a Divine Focus should now require a material component (or Arcane focus if it already has a material cost). I'd say that the rules are on her side, but every spell would be individually subject to your approval, as the rules state. Of course, the spells would be arcane and be subject to spell failure, etc, just like any other arcane spell.
Wraith7153 04-03-07, 10:02 PM	Divine spells are granted by a diety (they are prayed for each day) to thier loyal servants, their clerics. While an average adventurer may respect a diety because of the similarity of alignment, they can't hope to match a clerics dedication (which is why they're clerics and granted divine powers by their diety). A wizard can't channel divine power just as a cleric can't harness arcane energy and allowing them to do so without something in a D&D book is against the rules and unbalancing to the game.
Ace_of_time 04-03-07, 10:32 PM	Divine spells are granted by a diety (they are prayed for each day) to thier loyal servants, their clerics. While an average adventurer may respect a diety because of the similarity of alignment, they can't hope to match a clerics dedication (which is why they're clerics and granted divine powers by their diety). A wizard can't channel divine power just as a cleric can't harness arcane energy and allowing them to do so without something in a D&D book is against the rules and unbalancing to the game. I was typing about learning to cast divine spells using arcane magic not casting divine magic.
tos_shai_hulud 04-03-07, 11:12 PM	As was I. I mentioned researching a necromantic version of the cure spells. I never did understand why it was conjuration in the first place. If it is necromancy to inflict wounds, why not necromancy to heal them?
weasel0 04-03-07, 11:58 PM	Gestalt charaters really arn't all that powerful. Sure they have twice the options available, but they still only make 1 choice per round.
Wraith7153 04-04-07, 03:26 PM	I was typing about learning to cast divine spells using arcane magic not casting divine magic. I'm not sure that that's possible, at least not from a basic rules perspective but if you think it's what your game needs, that's your call as the DM. Within the bounds of my campaigns I find that the arcane spells are for arcane spellcasters and divine spells are for divine spellcasters and that that is how they should stay. That's just what works for my worlds and if your world needs some tweaking to the rules (or more than some as the case sometimes is) do it, the most important rule is that if you and your PCs are enjoying the game you're doing it right.
Ace_of_time 04-04-07, 08:45 PM	See what has always bothered me about this is is say that divine can only cast of their own class list. ( it doesn't for wizards)
Aminvelos 04-05-07, 11:07 AM	The complete Mage has already set precedent that clerics can cast wizard spells by sacrificing one domain. --Aka Divine Magcian The only spells they are allowed to add are in abjuration, divination or necromancy. "Each time you gain the ability to cast a new level of cleric spells, you can add a single wizard spell to your cleric list". I think this sets precedent for the reverse. Sacrifice one school or perhaps two with the typical rules of inability to sacrifice divination and universal. You can add one 1st lvl abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell to your spell list. Each time you gain the ability to cast a new level of wizard spells, you can add a single cleric spell to your spell list in one of the afore mentioned schools. -Class Wizard Level 1st Special Requirement: Knowledge (religion) 1 rank This would be the response to the divine magician from the complete mage. However, since healing is conjuration no healing would be allowed. If the wizard is willing to sacrifice 3 schools, I'd be willing to add conjuration spells to the list, maybe. Another thing you might want to do is By sacrificing the four other schools evocation, enchantment, illusion and transmutation you might be able to make a non-uber variant. You can pick any spells from the cleric or wizard list from divination, necromancy, abjuration, and conjuration schools. Other than that this individual should be treated as a wizard in all other respects. Your the dm, you make the rules. Is allowing a wizard to research cleric spells against the suggested rules that wizards have set forth, yes! Can you make a variant that would not 'break' the game, yes! Disclaimer: The following ideas above were inspired by the Complete Mage variant class. All variant ideas have not been tested and contain random various ideas with no true merit(testing)
Ace_of_time 04-05-07, 12:21 PM	I found in the DM book where any spellcaster can research new spells off their own so I could just let her do that instead. I really just wanted to see what others feel about add spells to their spell books through scrolls. I'm really surprised about the number of people that think the world of D&D will end if a wizard can cast a arcane cure spell.