Wizard spells known [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wizard spells known [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
vebnworb13
03-25-08, 10:57 PM OK this is an easy one I'm sure, but I can't find it, and my DM wants to know.

A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook.
The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level.
Question:
Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known."

My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known.

What say you all?

Thanks!
Kouk
03-25-08, 11:08 PM OK this is an easy one I'm sure, but I can't find it, and my DM wants to know.

A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook.
The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level.
Question:
Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known."

My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known.

What say you all?

Thanks!

I would say it depends on why this issue is important :P

Because Wizards have no kind of limit relating to "spells known" I can only assume you need some kind of qualifications for a Prestige Class or something which calls for a minimum number of spells known for particular spell levels.

I would not count just being in a book as "knowing" it for those purposes, I would require you be able to cast it as normal. You have a copy in your notes, but you don't quite understand it yet. Otherwise, just having a Scroll or item would fill similar requirements -- as would just "borrowing" someone else's spell book.

If there is really no reason why you need a certain "spell known," and this is just an intellectual exercise, then I would say you still don't truly "know" the spell, you just have it written down in a book.

I could copy some pages from a Latin textbook, but that doesn't mean I will truly understand what it is saying on any given page (since I haven't studied Latin). I might get the gist of it, but probably miss most of the content. That's sort of how I view higher-level spells than you cannot yet cast in a spellbook.
vebnworb13
03-25-08, 11:22 PM sorry guys, computer froze- double post.

see below
heffroncm
03-25-08, 11:24 PM II could copy some pages from a Latin textbook, but that doesn't mean I will truly understand what it is saying on any given page (since I haven't studied Latin). I might get the gist of it, but probably miss most of the content. That's sort of how I view higher-level spells than you cannot yet cast in a spellbook.

That's not really the way it is. Each spell is copied in your own way, with your own special notation, 'translated' into your own magical language. You don't have the training and ability to cast the spell yet. Think of it more like a tongue-twister. You can manage beginner tongue-twisters at level one, and with more training you gain the ability to spit out more advanced mouthfulls. You still know and understand the tongue-twister, you simply can't say it properly.

It would help to know what you're after. Wizards can 'know' pretty much every Wizard spell in the game, if they have enough spell books, time, and money.
vebnworb13
03-25-08, 11:29 PM OK, we were trying to avoid it but here's they why.

Epic campaign, party's epic caster. Now working on wizard progression (already has full casting in cleric and sorceress- don't ask). About to enter Dweomerkeeper PrC (CD enhancement). One of the abilities of the PrC is spell mantle, which tells you to choose one spell known to add to the mantle. That spell can that be cast out of the mantle by abandoning a higher or equal level prepared spell of the same kind (divine or arcane).

We are trying to figure out if said level 5 wizard can add a higher level wizard spell to the mantle, even though said wizard won't be able to cast it (not possible to prepare a spell of equal or higher level to abandon). Of course that would mean once the wizard could cast spells of that level they would (finally) be able to use to the mantle's spell by abandoning said appropriate prepared spell.

(and my DM helped me write this up- so it really isn't as DM v. me as it sounded in the first post. We were just trying to figure it out- obviously whatever the DM rules goes, but we were just trying to get more info and an answer if there already IS one)

thanks again!
Kouk
03-26-08, 03:44 AM OK.

Mantle of Spells: At 1st level, a dweomerkeeper
creates a personal mantle of arcane and/or divine spells.
She chooses one arcane or divine spell that she can cast,
and thereafter she can convert prepared spells of that
spell’s type (arcane or divine) into the chosen spell, so
long as the level of the spell to be converted is equal to
or greater than that of the chosen spell. This ability
functions just like a good cleric’s ability to spontaneously
convert prepared spells into cure spells. At every
odd-numbered dweomerkeeper level after 1st, the character
chooses another spell to add to her mantle.

If we are talking about the Mantle ability, then it clearly states you choose a spell that you can cast (already), not a spell that you know or don't know.

That said, if your DM is cool with allowing you to choose a spell you currently can't cast and put it on your Mantle, and then never actually have access to it until you are of the appropriate spell level, then go ahead.

Honestly, if you are in an Epic game, and somehow have full Cleric and Sorcerer progression already, then letting you choose a slightly higher level spell to put into your first level Mantle is not going to unbalance your game (to any noticeable extent).

You could simply put whatever spell you want into the Mantle as you get higher level in the Dweomerkeeper class though.

However, if you already know that spell as a Sorcerer, you have no problems -- it only cares about Arcane or Divine, not the particular classes involved. If the spell you happen to want is not one of your Sorcerer spells known, then perhaps you could "retrain" and swap it out with another spell of the same level?
vebnworb13
03-26-08, 11:00 AM Makes sense- I'll just do retraining. Seems like the bast, and proper way to do it! (I swear when he read it he didn't say 'cast' but hey, you have the source)
Thanks all!
mvincent
03-26-08, 05:08 PM A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook.
The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level.
Question:
Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known."

My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known.Let's say (for example) this is because the wizard has recently lost a level. The issue is complex and not directly addressed by the rules, but I would say that the Wizard 'understands'* the spell, and will automatically 'know' the spell once he is of the correct level to do so.

* 'understands' is the term used in the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSp ellbook) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vebnworb13 03-25-08, 10:57 PM	OK this is an easy one I'm sure, but I can't find it, and my DM wants to know. A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook. The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level. Question: Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known." My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known. What say you all? Thanks!
Kouk 03-25-08, 11:08 PM	OK this is an easy one I'm sure, but I can't find it, and my DM wants to know. A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook. The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level. Question: Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known." My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known. What say you all? Thanks! I would say it depends on why this issue is important :P Because Wizards have no kind of limit relating to "spells known" I can only assume you need some kind of qualifications for a Prestige Class or something which calls for a minimum number of spells known for particular spell levels. I would not count just being in a book as "knowing" it for those purposes, I would require you be able to cast it as normal. You have a copy in your notes, but you don't quite understand it yet. Otherwise, just having a Scroll or item would fill similar requirements -- as would just "borrowing" someone else's spell book. If there is really no reason why you need a certain "spell known," and this is just an intellectual exercise, then I would say you still don't truly "know" the spell, you just have it written down in a book. I could copy some pages from a Latin textbook, but that doesn't mean I will truly understand what it is saying on any given page (since I haven't studied Latin). I might get the gist of it, but probably miss most of the content. That's sort of how I view higher-level spells than you cannot yet cast in a spellbook.
vebnworb13 03-25-08, 11:22 PM	sorry guys, computer froze- double post. see below
heffroncm 03-25-08, 11:24 PM	II could copy some pages from a Latin textbook, but that doesn't mean I will truly understand what it is saying on any given page (since I haven't studied Latin). I might get the gist of it, but probably miss most of the content. That's sort of how I view higher-level spells than you cannot yet cast in a spellbook. That's not really the way it is. Each spell is copied in your own way, with your own special notation, 'translated' into your own magical language. You don't have the training and ability to cast the spell yet. Think of it more like a tongue-twister. You can manage beginner tongue-twisters at level one, and with more training you gain the ability to spit out more advanced mouthfulls. You still know and understand the tongue-twister, you simply can't say it properly. It would help to know what you're after. Wizards can 'know' pretty much every Wizard spell in the game, if they have enough spell books, time, and money.
vebnworb13 03-25-08, 11:29 PM	OK, we were trying to avoid it but here's they why. Epic campaign, party's epic caster. Now working on wizard progression (already has full casting in cleric and sorceress- don't ask). About to enter Dweomerkeeper PrC (CD enhancement). One of the abilities of the PrC is spell mantle, which tells you to choose one spell known to add to the mantle. That spell can that be cast out of the mantle by abandoning a higher or equal level prepared spell of the same kind (divine or arcane). We are trying to figure out if said level 5 wizard can add a higher level wizard spell to the mantle, even though said wizard won't be able to cast it (not possible to prepare a spell of equal or higher level to abandon). Of course that would mean once the wizard could cast spells of that level they would (finally) be able to use to the mantle's spell by abandoning said appropriate prepared spell. (and my DM helped me write this up- so it really isn't as DM v. me as it sounded in the first post. We were just trying to figure it out- obviously whatever the DM rules goes, but we were just trying to get more info and an answer if there already IS one) thanks again!
Kouk 03-26-08, 03:44 AM	OK. Mantle of Spells: At 1st level, a dweomerkeeper creates a personal mantle of arcane and/or divine spells. She chooses one arcane or divine spell that she can cast, and thereafter she can convert prepared spells of that spell’s type (arcane or divine) into the chosen spell, so long as the level of the spell to be converted is equal to or greater than that of the chosen spell. This ability functions just like a good cleric’s ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into cure spells. At every odd-numbered dweomerkeeper level after 1st, the character chooses another spell to add to her mantle. If we are talking about the Mantle ability, then it clearly states you choose a spell that you can cast (already), not a spell that you know or don't know. That said, if your DM is cool with allowing you to choose a spell you currently can't cast and put it on your Mantle, and then never actually have access to it until you are of the appropriate spell level, then go ahead. Honestly, if you are in an Epic game, and somehow have full Cleric and Sorcerer progression already, then letting you choose a slightly higher level spell to put into your first level Mantle is not going to unbalance your game (to any noticeable extent). You could simply put whatever spell you want into the Mantle as you get higher level in the Dweomerkeeper class though. However, if you already know that spell as a Sorcerer, you have no problems -- it only cares about Arcane or Divine, not the particular classes involved. If the spell you happen to want is not one of your Sorcerer spells known, then perhaps you could "retrain" and swap it out with another spell of the same level?
vebnworb13 03-26-08, 11:00 AM	Makes sense- I'll just do retraining. Seems like the bast, and proper way to do it! (I swear when he read it he didn't say 'cast' but hey, you have the source) Thanks all!
mvincent 03-26-08, 05:08 PM	A level 5 wizard has copied (properly) an 6th level spell into their spellbook. The wizard cannot prepare that spell since he isn't of the appropriate level. Question: Is that level 6 spell considered one of the wizard's "spells known." My DM believes that if he can't cast it then it isn't a spell known, I think if its in his spellbook, it is a spell known and wizards can have any number of spells known.Let's say (for example) this is because the wizard has recently lost a level. The issue is complex and not directly addressed by the rules, but I would say that the Wizard 'understands'* the spell, and will automatically 'know' the spell once he is of the correct level to do so. * 'understands' is the term used in the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSp ellbook) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings).