XP for turned undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

XP for turned undead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lysanthus
07-27-07, 11:35 PM Hey everyone.

I am struggling with how to award xp for turned (not destroyed) undead my players encountered last session.

They were faced with a relatively challenging vampire foe. After a few rounds combat was not going their way at all. The cleric then, in an attempt to save all of their skins, made a successful turning roll and the vampire went gaseous and fled. They finished what they were doing and then left the area. The vampire didn't return, so they did not truly defeat him.

Now, I am trying to figure what (if any) award I ought to give.

Also, this particular vampire will likely make appearances later in the campaign to try to kill them, so I don't want to award full xp every time combat goes badly and they need an "out". I was thinking maybe 1/3 xp?

Thoughts? Advice? :D
Vrael
07-27-07, 11:40 PM Actually.... they did defeat him. He fled, or routed, a (less lethal) version of defeat. Full XP.
DrMorganes
07-27-07, 11:57 PM Overcoming an encounter doesn't always mean pounding the opponent into paste. The player used a perfectly valid tactic by using a class feature that is uniquely suited to the situation. Would you be puzzling over whether to award XP if the party's rogue bypassed the Uber Fiendish Trap of Dooooooooom with a lucky roll? Or the bard making a great Bluff roll to fast talk the party past a group of ogres?

The sticky part, of course, is that you're dealing with a recurring villain. Recurring baddies are fun for you, and hopefully memorable - and just the slightest bit frustrating - for your players. Encounters with them require a little more thought than your average "you see a group of orcs at the edge of the clearing". You'll need to decide WHY the players will encounter this villain, what the conditions are for victory (both for the players AND for the villain!), and what the bad guy will do once those conditions have been met. In each case, award XP as appropriate for the CR of the encounter.
Lysanthus
07-28-07, 12:11 AM Actually.... they did defeat him. He fled, or routed, a (less lethal) version of defeat. Full XP.

Hmm, I see your point. I think I am really concerned with the recurring portion of it all. I plan to use him again.

But, he did well to save the party and ought to be rewarded :)
Lysanthus
07-28-07, 12:14 AM Overcoming an encounter doesn't always mean pounding the opponent into paste. The player used a perfectly valid tactic by using a class feature that is uniquely suited to the situation. Would you be puzzling over whether to award XP if the party's rogue bypassed the Uber Fiendish Trap of Dooooooooom with a lucky roll? Or the bard making a great Bluff roll to fast talk the party past a group of ogres?

The sticky part, of course, is that you're dealing with a recurring villain. Recurring baddies are fun for you, and hopefully memorable - and just the slightest bit frustrating - for your players. Encounters with them require a little more thought than your average "you see a group of orcs at the edge of the clearing". You'll need to decide WHY the players will encounter this villain, what the conditions are for victory (both for the players AND for the villain!), and what the bad guy will do once those conditions have been met. In each case, award XP as appropriate for the CR of the encounter.

Oh, I 100% agree that the conditions of "winning" an encounter are not always beating the opponent into paste. I just felt that it was more of a desperation thing...quick, turn and get us out of this mess. Still, they survived, and the villain now has even more reason to go after them again :devil:

I think I will do the 100% xp afterall.

Thanks to everyone for the advice! :)
runestar
07-28-07, 01:14 AM I would say that it depends on what exactly was required of you.

Was your quest to slay the vampire who had been terrorizing the villagers? If so, this would not grant you full xp, if at all. I might give some xp for surviving the encounter, but other factors may have to be taken into account. Maybe some sort of ad-hoc xp bonus which will be calculated at the end, only after they actually track down the vampire and slay it for good.

IE: the vampire used his evasive abilities to ambush the PCs multiple times over the course of the adventure as they track him down. This might grant the PCs some xp each time they survive his attacks (assuming he can get back to full str each time), but they only get this xp when they actually kill the vampire.

Was it to simply thwart some doomsday plot of his? If you managed this, even if he fled, then probably full xp (or almost full).

Was the vampire some sort of random encounter who was not really pertinent to the main quest? If so, then probably full xp.
Marcus Majarra
07-28-07, 12:10 PM For the encounter itself, award full experience points. They fought the vampire and won. Encountering the creature and winning against it is worth experience for a challenge of its rating. This is how combat experience works. Whether the party has a useful ability to use in a combat or not doesn't matter; in fact, it's a good thing the PC cleric managed to turn the vampire. In terms of combat outcome, it's no different from having the party barbarian rage, beat the vampire to a pulp (which automatically forces the creature into gaseous form and to retreat to its coffin). If an ability is useful in overcoming an encounter, all the better. Don't penalize the cleric for being good at something.

Now, if there was some other objective for which you awarded experience that involved getting rid of the vampire permanently (say you were going to award story experience for ridding the area of the vampire), then it's obvious the party failed in that objective and would not receive experience for it. What you need to keep in mind is that experience for overcoming an encounter and experience for achieving an objective are two different things. Don't cut down on encounter experience just because things didn't go as usual.
Lysanthus
07-28-07, 12:56 PM Very good points everyone! Thanks for the help with this.

The vampire they encountered was basically a minion of the true villain/BBEG. He was sent to try and prevent the PCs from attaining a powerful item which could be used against his master (again, the true BBEG) with a secondary goal of testing them, learning their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

So, in a sense they passed the "test" and defeated him, and didn't allow the vampire to stop them from getting the item they were searching for.

100% xp seems warranted, I agree.
StevenO
07-28-07, 03:09 PM It is always pleasing to see someone realize that winning an encounter doesn't always mean killing all of your opponents. As long as the true goal is accomplished full XP all the way.

Now when dealing with a foe that is defeated once but then encountered again the situation may not call for full XP. Surviving an encounter with a Wizard who ends up using most of his spells will often grant full XP but encountering the wizard again before he's back to full strength wouldn't merit full XP while hitting him a second time a full strength would again be full XP.

Vampires seem to be ideal as recurring villians. You can play them to death but that gives them an out so they can "heal" and come back at a later date for another full encounter.
Detlar
07-29-07, 02:10 PM And as for what to do with the recurring vamp, try buffing him up if necessary, to remain a viable threat. Remember vampires can attain class levels so as the party levels so too does the vampires making him a continual thorn in their side and won't they be surprised when the vampire starts casting spells. Just an idea what to do to keep the recurring vampire a viable threat to the party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lysanthus 07-27-07, 11:35 PM	Hey everyone. I am struggling with how to award xp for turned (not destroyed) undead my players encountered last session. They were faced with a relatively challenging vampire foe. After a few rounds combat was not going their way at all. The cleric then, in an attempt to save all of their skins, made a successful turning roll and the vampire went gaseous and fled. They finished what they were doing and then left the area. The vampire didn't return, so they did not truly defeat him. Now, I am trying to figure what (if any) award I ought to give. Also, this particular vampire will likely make appearances later in the campaign to try to kill them, so I don't want to award full xp every time combat goes badly and they need an "out". I was thinking maybe 1/3 xp? Thoughts? Advice? :D
Vrael 07-27-07, 11:40 PM	Actually.... they did defeat him. He fled, or routed, a (less lethal) version of defeat. Full XP.
DrMorganes 07-27-07, 11:57 PM	Overcoming an encounter doesn't always mean pounding the opponent into paste. The player used a perfectly valid tactic by using a class feature that is uniquely suited to the situation. Would you be puzzling over whether to award XP if the party's rogue bypassed the Uber Fiendish Trap of Dooooooooom with a lucky roll? Or the bard making a great Bluff roll to fast talk the party past a group of ogres? The sticky part, of course, is that you're dealing with a recurring villain. Recurring baddies are fun for you, and hopefully memorable - and just the slightest bit frustrating - for your players. Encounters with them require a little more thought than your average "you see a group of orcs at the edge of the clearing". You'll need to decide WHY the players will encounter this villain, what the conditions are for victory (both for the players AND for the villain!), and what the bad guy will do once those conditions have been met. In each case, award XP as appropriate for the CR of the encounter.
Lysanthus 07-28-07, 12:11 AM	Actually.... they did defeat him. He fled, or routed, a (less lethal) version of defeat. Full XP. Hmm, I see your point. I think I am really concerned with the recurring portion of it all. I plan to use him again. But, he did well to save the party and ought to be rewarded :)
Lysanthus 07-28-07, 12:14 AM	Overcoming an encounter doesn't always mean pounding the opponent into paste. The player used a perfectly valid tactic by using a class feature that is uniquely suited to the situation. Would you be puzzling over whether to award XP if the party's rogue bypassed the Uber Fiendish Trap of Dooooooooom with a lucky roll? Or the bard making a great Bluff roll to fast talk the party past a group of ogres? The sticky part, of course, is that you're dealing with a recurring villain. Recurring baddies are fun for you, and hopefully memorable - and just the slightest bit frustrating - for your players. Encounters with them require a little more thought than your average "you see a group of orcs at the edge of the clearing". You'll need to decide WHY the players will encounter this villain, what the conditions are for victory (both for the players AND for the villain!), and what the bad guy will do once those conditions have been met. In each case, award XP as appropriate for the CR of the encounter. Oh, I 100% agree that the conditions of "winning" an encounter are not always beating the opponent into paste. I just felt that it was more of a desperation thing...quick, turn and get us out of this mess. Still, they survived, and the villain now has even more reason to go after them again :devil: I think I will do the 100% xp afterall. Thanks to everyone for the advice! :)
runestar 07-28-07, 01:14 AM	I would say that it depends on what exactly was required of you. Was your quest to slay the vampire who had been terrorizing the villagers? If so, this would not grant you full xp, if at all. I might give some xp for surviving the encounter, but other factors may have to be taken into account. Maybe some sort of ad-hoc xp bonus which will be calculated at the end, only after they actually track down the vampire and slay it for good. IE: the vampire used his evasive abilities to ambush the PCs multiple times over the course of the adventure as they track him down. This might grant the PCs some xp each time they survive his attacks (assuming he can get back to full str each time), but they only get this xp when they actually kill the vampire. Was it to simply thwart some doomsday plot of his? If you managed this, even if he fled, then probably full xp (or almost full). Was the vampire some sort of random encounter who was not really pertinent to the main quest? If so, then probably full xp.
Marcus Majarra 07-28-07, 12:10 PM	For the encounter itself, award full experience points. They fought the vampire and won. Encountering the creature and winning against it is worth experience for a challenge of its rating. This is how combat experience works. Whether the party has a useful ability to use in a combat or not doesn't matter; in fact, it's a good thing the PC cleric managed to turn the vampire. In terms of combat outcome, it's no different from having the party barbarian rage, beat the vampire to a pulp (which automatically forces the creature into gaseous form and to retreat to its coffin). If an ability is useful in overcoming an encounter, all the better. Don't penalize the cleric for being good at something. Now, if there was some other objective for which you awarded experience that involved getting rid of the vampire permanently (say you were going to award story experience for ridding the area of the vampire), then it's obvious the party failed in that objective and would not receive experience for it. What you need to keep in mind is that experience for overcoming an encounter and experience for achieving an objective are two different things. Don't cut down on encounter experience just because things didn't go as usual.
Lysanthus 07-28-07, 12:56 PM	Very good points everyone! Thanks for the help with this. The vampire they encountered was basically a minion of the true villain/BBEG. He was sent to try and prevent the PCs from attaining a powerful item which could be used against his master (again, the true BBEG) with a secondary goal of testing them, learning their strengths and weaknesses, etc. So, in a sense they passed the "test" and defeated him, and didn't allow the vampire to stop them from getting the item they were searching for. 100% xp seems warranted, I agree.
StevenO 07-28-07, 03:09 PM	It is always pleasing to see someone realize that winning an encounter doesn't always mean killing all of your opponents. As long as the true goal is accomplished full XP all the way. Now when dealing with a foe that is defeated once but then encountered again the situation may not call for full XP. Surviving an encounter with a Wizard who ends up using most of his spells will often grant full XP but encountering the wizard again before he's back to full strength wouldn't merit full XP while hitting him a second time a full strength would again be full XP. Vampires seem to be ideal as recurring villians. You can play them to death but that gives them an out so they can "heal" and come back at a later date for another full encounter.
Detlar 07-29-07, 02:10 PM	And as for what to do with the recurring vamp, try buffing him up if necessary, to remain a viable threat. Remember vampires can attain class levels so as the party levels so too does the vampires making him a continual thorn in their side and won't they be surprised when the vampire starts casting spells. Just an idea what to do to keep the recurring vampire a viable threat to the party.