Zombies and Subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Zombies and Subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-10-08, 08:56 PM I am confused about which subtypes a zombie might keep. According to the Monster Manual:

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Which subtypes indicate kind? From this list of subtypes, I am trying to determine which ones would be kept and which lost. I am marking off each, please let me know if you have a different opinion and why.

Air - Keep
Angel - Lose (indicates kind?)
Aquatic - Keep
Archon - Lose (indicates kind?)
Chaotic - Lose (alignment)
Cold - Keep
Earth - Keep
Evil - Lose (alignment)
Extraplanar - Keep
Fire - Keep
Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind)
Good - Lose (alignment)
Incorporeal - N/A (zombies must be made from corporeal creatures)
Lawful - Lose (alignment)
Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind)
Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Water - Keep

Does anyone have any suggestions? Especially for the ones I have question marks by?
iserith
04-10-08, 09:06 PM If you go to the Wizards Monster Index, you will find that no zombie has any subtypes except for a necrocarnum zombie (Magic of Incarnum) which has the Evil and Incarnum subtypes.

This is probably indicative of zombies not generally needing subtypes at all.
tos_shai_hulud
04-10-08, 09:15 PM This becomes important, however, with clerics of the Fire, Water, Air, and Earth domains as well as against spells like Banishment. If they keep their subtype, then an Azer zombie maintains the fire type and can be commanded by a cleric of the Fire domain. Banishment can banish zombies with the Extraplanar subtype. Zombies with the Shapechanger subtype are able to undo polymorphing effects. Zombies with the Swarm subtype may have additional effects when it comes to normal weapons and splash weapons. Each subtype has a game effect, making it important if I want my players to face a lot of undead and have a lot of options for how to deal with them.

Edit: And while it is true that there are no zombies listed with subtypes, the Skeleton has the exact same entry for subtypes, yet the Young Red Dragon Skeleton has the Fire subtype (indicating that elemental subtypes are kept). Nothing is mentioned about the others which I have question marks near.
iserith
04-10-08, 10:22 PM This becomes important, however, with clerics of the Fire, Water, Air, and Earth domains as well as against spells like Banishment. If they keep their subtype, then an Azer zombie maintains the fire type and can be commanded by a cleric of the Fire domain. Banishment can banish zombies with the Extraplanar subtype. Zombies with the Shapechanger subtype are able to undo polymorphing effects. Zombies with the Swarm subtype may have additional effects when it comes to normal weapons and splash weapons. Each subtype has a game effect, making it important if I want my players to face a lot of undead and have a lot of options for how to deal with them.

Edit: And while it is true that there are no zombies listed with subtypes, the Skeleton has the exact same entry for subtypes, yet the Young Red Dragon Skeleton has the Fire subtype (indicating that elemental subtypes are kept). Nothing is mentioned about the others which I have question marks near.

Fair enough. I guess if you're going for a crazy zombie campaign, you'd need to keep it interesting. Check out Libris Mortis for the swarmshifter template - very cool. It would make for some good encounters in a living dead campaign.
EvilCouch
04-11-08, 12:12 AM I am confused about which subtypes a zombie might keep. According to the Monster Manual:

Which subtypes indicate kind? From this list of subtypes, I am trying to determine which ones would be kept and which lost. I am marking off each, please let me know if you have a different opinion and why.

Air - Keep
Angel - Lose (indicates kind?)
Aquatic - Keep
Archon - Lose (indicates kind?)
Chaotic - Lose (alignment)
Cold - Keep
Earth - Keep
Evil - Lose (alignment)
Extraplanar - Keep
Fire - Keep
Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind)
Good - Lose (alignment)
Incorporeal - N/A (zombies must be made from corporeal creatures)
Lawful - Lose (alignment)
Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind)
Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)
Water - Keep

Does anyone have any suggestions? Especially for the ones I have question marks by?Native is just a tie in to Extraplanar. I don't think it really ties into kind. I'd let them keep it. Zombies lose Psionic, because they no longer meet the requirements of the type. Shapechanger is iffy. Angel and Archon are definitely lost by becoming a zombie.
Merestil Haye
04-11-08, 02:26 PM Of the four you have question marks against, I would say that two definitely go, one may go (but I don't use that part of the ruleset) and the fourth is, like Incorporeal, N/A.

I don't know enough about psionics to decide whether a zombie keeps the Psionic type.

Native - indicates a creature of the Outsider type which is nonetheless a native of the Prime Material Plane. This goes.

Shapechanger - indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype (a Doppelganger, for example). This is similar to Angel, Archon, Goblin and so on. It goes.

Swarm - I really don't think you can make a zombie out of a swarm. A zombie is made from a single corporeal creature, which must have a skeletal system. Zombies are not single creatures, and do not have connected skeletal systems. Mark Swarm N/A.

I think you've called all the others you list correctly.
tos_shai_hulud
04-12-08, 03:42 PM Of the four you have question marks against, I would say that two definitely go, one may go (but I don't use that part of the ruleset) and the fourth is, like Incorporeal, N/A.

I don't know enough about psionics to decide whether a zombie keeps the Psionic type.

Native - indicates a creature of the Outsider type which is nonetheless a native of the Prime Material Plane. This goes.

Shapechanger - indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype (a Doppelganger, for example). This is similar to Angel, Archon, Goblin and so on. It goes.

Swarm - I really don't think you can make a zombie out of a swarm. A zombie is made from a single corporeal creature, which must have a skeletal system. Zombies are not single creatures, and do not have connected skeletal systems. Mark Swarm N/A.

I think you've called all the others you list correctly.

Good point! I didn't even think about skeletal systems.

But I am not sure I understand about the Shapechanger. It is a tautology to say that the Shapechanger subtype indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype. I am not sure if it indicates kind any more than the Fire subtype. It is possible that you are right, but some additional examples are Shifters (from the Eberron Campaign setting) have the shapechanger subtype. It is just as indicative of their functionality (the ability to control their form) as it is indicative of their kind (much like the Fire subtype does, to some degree, indicate a creature's kind). I can't say that I disagree, though, because it may be true that shapechanger should be lost. I am really not sure. Maybe it doesn't matter? I mean, can a zombie understand what happens to it when it is turned to stone? It is mindless, so maybe it can't take that standard action to revert back to its normal form and the shapechanger subtype doesn't do anything for it anyway.
Some_call_me_Tim
04-14-08, 05:34 PM Which subtypes indicate kind?

Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind)OK, let's start with the easy ones. You would lose goblinoid because you lose humanoid and goblinoid describes what kind of humanoid you are.

Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind)Same here.

Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Native subtype can only be applied to outsiders. A zombie is always undead. Drop it.

Angel - Lose (indicates kind?)
...
Archon - Lose (indicates kind?)These are races of outsiders, just like goblinoid they get dropped.

Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Shapechangers have the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. After they become zombies they lose this ability and therefore subtype.

Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Undead can be psionic, however the process of zombification causes them to lose this ability just like shapechangers so they lose the subtype as well.

Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) As stated above you can't make a zombie from a swarm because it must be made from a single creature. So you would just have zombie of a single creature.

I suppose you could say that you can make a swarm of zombies, but not a zombie of a swarm.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-10-08, 08:56 PM	I am confused about which subtypes a zombie might keep. According to the Monster Manual: Size and Type The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Which subtypes indicate kind? From this list of subtypes, I am trying to determine which ones would be kept and which lost. I am marking off each, please let me know if you have a different opinion and why. Air - Keep Angel - Lose (indicates kind?) Aquatic - Keep Archon - Lose (indicates kind?) Chaotic - Lose (alignment) Cold - Keep Earth - Keep Evil - Lose (alignment) Extraplanar - Keep Fire - Keep Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind) Good - Lose (alignment) Incorporeal - N/A (zombies must be made from corporeal creatures) Lawful - Lose (alignment) Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind) Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Water - Keep Does anyone have any suggestions? Especially for the ones I have question marks by?
iserith 04-10-08, 09:06 PM	If you go to the Wizards Monster Index, you will find that no zombie has any subtypes except for a necrocarnum zombie (Magic of Incarnum) which has the Evil and Incarnum subtypes. This is probably indicative of zombies not generally needing subtypes at all.
tos_shai_hulud 04-10-08, 09:15 PM	This becomes important, however, with clerics of the Fire, Water, Air, and Earth domains as well as against spells like Banishment. If they keep their subtype, then an Azer zombie maintains the fire type and can be commanded by a cleric of the Fire domain. Banishment can banish zombies with the Extraplanar subtype. Zombies with the Shapechanger subtype are able to undo polymorphing effects. Zombies with the Swarm subtype may have additional effects when it comes to normal weapons and splash weapons. Each subtype has a game effect, making it important if I want my players to face a lot of undead and have a lot of options for how to deal with them. Edit: And while it is true that there are no zombies listed with subtypes, the Skeleton has the exact same entry for subtypes, yet the Young Red Dragon Skeleton has the Fire subtype (indicating that elemental subtypes are kept). Nothing is mentioned about the others which I have question marks near.
iserith 04-10-08, 10:22 PM	This becomes important, however, with clerics of the Fire, Water, Air, and Earth domains as well as against spells like Banishment. If they keep their subtype, then an Azer zombie maintains the fire type and can be commanded by a cleric of the Fire domain. Banishment can banish zombies with the Extraplanar subtype. Zombies with the Shapechanger subtype are able to undo polymorphing effects. Zombies with the Swarm subtype may have additional effects when it comes to normal weapons and splash weapons. Each subtype has a game effect, making it important if I want my players to face a lot of undead and have a lot of options for how to deal with them. Edit: And while it is true that there are no zombies listed with subtypes, the Skeleton has the exact same entry for subtypes, yet the Young Red Dragon Skeleton has the Fire subtype (indicating that elemental subtypes are kept). Nothing is mentioned about the others which I have question marks near. Fair enough. I guess if you're going for a crazy zombie campaign, you'd need to keep it interesting. Check out Libris Mortis for the swarmshifter template - very cool. It would make for some good encounters in a living dead campaign.
EvilCouch 04-11-08, 12:12 AM	I am confused about which subtypes a zombie might keep. According to the Monster Manual: Which subtypes indicate kind? From this list of subtypes, I am trying to determine which ones would be kept and which lost. I am marking off each, please let me know if you have a different opinion and why. Air - Keep Angel - Lose (indicates kind?) Aquatic - Keep Archon - Lose (indicates kind?) Chaotic - Lose (alignment) Cold - Keep Earth - Keep Evil - Lose (alignment) Extraplanar - Keep Fire - Keep Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind) Good - Lose (alignment) Incorporeal - N/A (zombies must be made from corporeal creatures) Lawful - Lose (alignment) Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind) Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) Water - Keep Does anyone have any suggestions? Especially for the ones I have question marks by?Native is just a tie in to Extraplanar. I don't think it really ties into kind. I'd let them keep it. Zombies lose Psionic, because they no longer meet the requirements of the type. Shapechanger is iffy. Angel and Archon are definitely lost by becoming a zombie.
Merestil Haye 04-11-08, 02:26 PM	Of the four you have question marks against, I would say that two definitely go, one may go (but I don't use that part of the ruleset) and the fourth is, like Incorporeal, N/A. I don't know enough about psionics to decide whether a zombie keeps the Psionic type. Native - indicates a creature of the Outsider type which is nonetheless a native of the Prime Material Plane. This goes. Shapechanger - indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype (a Doppelganger, for example). This is similar to Angel, Archon, Goblin and so on. It goes. Swarm - I really don't think you can make a zombie out of a swarm. A zombie is made from a single corporeal creature, which must have a skeletal system. Zombies are not single creatures, and do not have connected skeletal systems. Mark Swarm N/A. I think you've called all the others you list correctly.
tos_shai_hulud 04-12-08, 03:42 PM	Of the four you have question marks against, I would say that two definitely go, one may go (but I don't use that part of the ruleset) and the fourth is, like Incorporeal, N/A. I don't know enough about psionics to decide whether a zombie keeps the Psionic type. Native - indicates a creature of the Outsider type which is nonetheless a native of the Prime Material Plane. This goes. Shapechanger - indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype (a Doppelganger, for example). This is similar to Angel, Archon, Goblin and so on. It goes. Swarm - I really don't think you can make a zombie out of a swarm. A zombie is made from a single corporeal creature, which must have a skeletal system. Zombies are not single creatures, and do not have connected skeletal systems. Mark Swarm N/A. I think you've called all the others you list correctly. Good point! I didn't even think about skeletal systems. But I am not sure I understand about the Shapechanger. It is a tautology to say that the Shapechanger subtype indicates a creature with the Shapechanger subtype. I am not sure if it indicates kind any more than the Fire subtype. It is possible that you are right, but some additional examples are Shifters (from the Eberron Campaign setting) have the shapechanger subtype. It is just as indicative of their functionality (the ability to control their form) as it is indicative of their kind (much like the Fire subtype does, to some degree, indicate a creature's kind). I can't say that I disagree, though, because it may be true that shapechanger should be lost. I am really not sure. Maybe it doesn't matter? I mean, can a zombie understand what happens to it when it is turned to stone? It is mindless, so maybe it can't take that standard action to revert back to its normal form and the shapechanger subtype doesn't do anything for it anyway.
Some_call_me_Tim 04-14-08, 05:34 PM	Which subtypes indicate kind? Goblinoid - Lose (indicates kind)OK, let's start with the easy ones. You would lose goblinoid because you lose humanoid and goblinoid describes what kind of humanoid you are. Reptilian - Lose (indicates kind)Same here. Native - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Native subtype can only be applied to outsiders. A zombie is always undead. Drop it. Angel - Lose (indicates kind?) ... Archon - Lose (indicates kind?)These are races of outsiders, just like goblinoid they get dropped. Shapechanger - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Shapechangers have the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. After they become zombies they lose this ability and therefore subtype. Psionic - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind)Undead can be psionic, however the process of zombification causes them to lose this ability just like shapechangers so they lose the subtype as well. Swarm - ??? (Maybe keep, maybe indicates kind) As stated above you can't make a zombie from a swarm because it must be made from a single creature. So you would just have zombie of a single creature. I suppose you could say that you can make a swarm of zombies, but not a zombie of a swarm.