Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zironic 04-26-08, 07:30 PM	I'm a newbie DM One of the players in my campaign is playing a Dread Necromancer so I decided to turn something they killed recently into a zombie (A werebear). Now what confuses me is this. The werebear is a 7 HD lychantrope with CR5. Once I'm finnished turning him into a zombie he looks like this: Werebear Zombie of Doom and Destruction: Large Zombie HP: 14d12 (84 hp) AC: 19 Base attack: +7 Attack: Greataxe +17(1d12+15/x3) Abilities: Str 31, dex 11, con - , int -, wis 10 cha 0 He started out like: Werebear Large Humanoid HD: 1d8+1+6d8+30(62 hp) AC: 17 Base attack: +5 Attack: Greataxe +11 melee(1d12+13/x3) Abilities: Str 29, dex 13, con 20, int 10, wis 11, cha 8 Did I do something wrong when I applied the template or is a CR 3 Zombie really meant to do that much more damage then a CR 5 werebear and is a necromancer really meant to be able to casually conjure zombies that outdamage the local fighter? And this is before buffage by things like Desecration and the +4 Str, +4 dex and 2 hp per hit die from the necromancer being lvl 8. Also why does Create Undead and Create Greater undead seem so weak next to Animate Dead. The Created undead have really low HD and requires huge caster levels while Animate Dead seems to have no problem animating a 20 HD skeleton the first level you gain it.
tos_shai_hulud 04-27-08, 12:25 AM	Lycanthropy is a supernatural curse. The zombie loses all supernatural abilities that the living creature had, which means it loses the curse of lycanthropy. Animating a human lycanthrope as a zombie is the same as animating a human as a zombie. The "werebear" portion is lost in the necromancy. Assuming you want to overrule that and allow the zombie to keep its animal hit dice, you should remember this: A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form If you check the stats for the werebear in humanoid form, he doesn't have the stats you posted. When animated, he would also lose his supernatural ability of Alternate Form (as zombies lose all supernatural abilities). So, if you do decide that he keeps his animal hit dice, here is the correct zombie: Human Werebear Zombie Size/Type: Medium Undead Hit Dice: 14d12+3 (94 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 16 (-1 Dex, +4 natural, +3 studded leather armor), touch 9, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+9 Attack: Greataxe +9 melee (1d12+3/×3) or throwing axe +6 ranged (1d6+2) Full Attack: Greataxe +9 melee (1d12+3/×3) or throwing axe +6 ranged (1d6+2) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/Slashing, Single actions only Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +9 Abilities: Str 15, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: - Feats: Toughness Challenge Rating: 3 Again, I discourage allowing a lycanthrope to retain its animal hit dice when zombified. I still think the zombie template would nullify the lycanthropy, but it is your call as DM. Still, even as a lycanthropic zombie, it would definitely lose its supernatural shapechanging abilities. As far as Create Undead and Create Greater Undead, keep in mind that zombies and skeletons are mindless. They cannot be assassins. They cannot spy on enemies. They cannot do anything that requires thought. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are always sentient undead, capable of doing dastardly deeds. These undead are far more significant than mindless automatons of war to the creative player.
Zironic 04-27-08, 01:39 PM	I used assumed their bodies would be in whatever form they happened to die in, didn't know they reverted back to human form on death :cool: However that doesn't solve my main issue, by animating large humanoids like Ettins or Giants you end up with creatues with insane hit dice and damage output that the cleric can just toss around like cannon fodder, since if they die, who cares, I can animate another one. Since it seems a lvl 8 Dread Necromancer can control something like 7 Skeleton Ettins or 3 Zombie it seems a bit silly that 2-3 skeleton Ettins are apparently an appropriate level encounter. Is the appropriate thing to do raise the EL of the encounter until the undead can't solo it by themselves anymore or should I just put an enemy clerics everywhere <.<? Also it seems a bit silly nothing is stopping a low level Dread Necromancer/Cleric from just wandering to a giant/dragon graveyard(Or well, a dragon graveyard is a pretty damn hostile place to a low level cleric xD) and start Animating Dragons and Giants.
wraithstrike 04-27-08, 02:25 PM	I used assumed their bodies would be in whatever form they happened to die in, didn't know they reverted back to human form on death :cool: However that doesn't solve my main issue, by animating large humanoids like Ettins or Giants you end up with creatues with insane hit dice and damage output that the cleric can just toss around like cannon fodder, since if they die, who cares, I can animate another one. Since it seems a lvl 8 Dread Necromancer can control something like 7 Skeleton Ettins or 3 Zombie it seems a bit silly that 2-3 skeleton Ettins are apparently an appropriate level encounter. Is the appropriate thing to do raise the EL of the encounter until the undead can't solo it by themselves anymore or should I just put an enemy clerics everywhere <.<? Also it seems a bit silly nothing is stopping a low level Dread Necromancer/Cleric from just wandering to a giant/dragon graveyard(Or well, a dragon graveyard is a pretty damn hostile place to a low level cleric xD) and start Animating Dragons and Giants. The base creature of can have no more than 20 hd if it is to be a skeleton, and, and zombies have a limit of 10. They also need the black onyx gems that are worth 25 hd per hd of the base creature. Make sure he keep track of the gems, and make sure he does not go over the HD limit. If there is a graveyard then there are most likely living versions of the same monster nearby. Low level ________ should not be playing with giants either. As for the, just bring in a cleric and and turn them or take control of them and turn them against the DN . There is also the hide from undead spell (1st level). Unintelligent undead don't even get a save against this spell. If you let us(the board) know whether you use more hd based or class based monsters we can probably think of some other ideas. P.S. I don't think you should completely nullify the DN, but you do have to be sure they don't take over the game.
lifeblender 04-27-08, 02:47 PM	There's a limit to how many Hit Dice of zombies, skeletons, etc. can be controlled at once. There is one limit based on the turn undead class feature and a second, separate limit based on the Animate Dead and Create Undead (and Greater) spells. Undead beyond that limit become uncontrolled, and if they are mindless will generally be hostile to anything living. That doesn't mean that they are useless but it does mean that they can't be ordered into a certain place to fight.
Zironic 04-27-08, 03:03 PM	The base creature of can have no more than 20 hd if it is to be a skeleton, and, and zombies have a limit of 10. They also need the black onyx gems that are worth 25 hd per hd of the base creature. Make sure he keep track of the gems, and make sure he does not go over the HD limit. If there is a graveyard then there are most likely living versions of the same monster nearby. Low level ________ should not be playing with giants either. As for the, just bring in a cleric and and turn them or take control of them and turn them against the DN . There is also the hide from undead spell (1st level). Unintelligent undead don't even get a save against this spell. If you let us(the board) know whether you use more hd based or class based monsters we can probably think of some other ideas. P.S. I don't think you should completely nullify the DN, but you do have to be sure they don't take over the game. Having enemy clerics use Control Undead would be rather fun considering the DN has a more powerful version of that spell. It would be like playing the evil divine version of tennis with undead until they run out of magic (Most likely the cleric since the DN casts spells spontaniously). I don't want to nullify the DN, I just want to build encounters that are appropriate, that is DN should atleast have to cast one spell in order to win. Making sure the DN has to keep track of his black onyx gems seems like a good idea, especially since it's probably not all that easy to find a store in a normal town with several thousand gold worth of onyx gems. Thanks for the Hide From Undead tip, I can already see how much fun I can have with it every now and then. DN: Minions Charge that enemy! Minions stand still.... DN: Argh! I suppose the player will get the hint and make sure to get a scroll of dispell or somesuch pretty fast though. The DN taking over the game isn't that much a problem as such since it's a 2 player party, a Drow Fighter and a Human Dreadnecromancer so they need a bit more punshing power then expected. I'm thinking of allowing them to use the ghestalt rules to power up the fighter a bit more, esp defensivly. What kind of encounters am I using? Since I'm rather new to DM'ng I mostly used random encounters of the form (They were lvl 7) EL = 4+d4 Number of monsters=1d4 Then I checked the chart in the DM manual for the CR of the monsters and found monsters of the right CR that seemed to have a resonable reason to be in the same area of the PC's. So far they've met things like Ettin Skelletons (That was like giving the DN free xp and a free cohort), werebears, trolls, ogres etc. So mostly HD based monsters. However the players have requested a few more humanoid encounters(Which I've tried to avoid a bit since they seemed harder to create on the fly but after reading the NPC part of the GM manual a bit more it seems the charts already account for ability scores so you can play them right of the chart). So what I'm planning for the close future is an exploration of the mines under Brightstone Keep which will involve atleast two humanoid factions waging an underground war(So the PC's can have some RP opportunities as they exploit the factions to their advantage) and possible passages to the underdark and a dragons lair(About time for the PC's to meet their first dragon). Also I need to hide the cohort the Fighter PC will gain from his leadership feat there somewhere so she can be resqued and swear eternal alligience to the PC. What I'll need to decide is what humanoid factions exactly, I'm considering Deep Dwarves or Duergar vs Drow since they have plausible reason to be there. Then a third dragon worshipping faction would be interesting(Kobolds?) that might be just about to sacrifice the cohort to the dragon as the PC's enter the relevant cave. So how do I build both HD(underground monsters) and class level(humanoid factions) encounters that can properly challenge a lvl 8 2 man party(Possibly gestalt) without killing them xD. There's a limit to how many Hit Dice of zombies, skeletons, etc. can be controlled at once. There is one limit based on the turn undead class feature and a second, separate limit based on the Animate Dead and Create Undead (and Greater) spells. Undead beyond that limit become uncontrolled, and if they are mindless will generally be hostile to anything living. That doesn't mean that they are useless but it does mean that they can't be ordered into a certain place to fight. What is that limit? The DN class seem to just say (4+cha modifier)*level which is a ludicrous amount once you start stacking charisma for real.
wraithstrike 04-27-08, 04:16 PM	I suppose the player will get the hint and make sure to get a scroll of dispell or somesuch pretty fast though. He would have to dispel each enemy individually :) After edit: Have an enemy move up on him, and ready an action to strike him as he cast a spell. He will be hard pressed to cast anything with someone in his face, and the undead won't be able to protect him since they can't see the enemy. The DN taking over the game isn't that much a problem as such since it's a 2 player party, a Drow Fighter and a Human Dreadnecromancer so they need a bit more punshing power then expected. I'm thinking of allowing them to use the ghestalt rules to power up the fighter a bit more, esp defensivly. If you only have 2 players that is a good idea, but you have have to increase the challenge levels of the monsters depending on the gestalt combinations they use. However the players have requested a few more humanoid encounters(Which I've tried to avoid a bit since they seemed harder to create on the fly but after reading the NPC part of the GM manual a bit more it seems the charts already account for ability scores so you can play them right of the chart). They are harder to create, but you have more control over how they work. This will require more free time if you have it. I like to take monsters that normally advance by HD and give them class levels instead of advancing HD assuming they are intelligent enough to learn. Fighting a babau(sp?) that has levels in rogue or fighter will catch them off guard. So how do I build both HD(underground monsters) and class level(humanoid factions) encounters that can properly challenge a lvl 8 2 man party(Possibly gestalt) without killing them xD. You are going to have to get a feel for what they can can't handle. If neither one has healing abilities then limit the encounters per day. It is very hard to play a two man adventure without gestalt. What is that limit? The DN class seem to just say (4+cha modifier)*level which is a ludicrous amount once you start stacking charisma for real. For the DN, the limit is very high, but due to the amount of gems they would need they should never reach that limit unless you give you to much loot, or they keep healing their undead, and making more, instead of letting them die, but if they get to many, just remember undead don't have good reflex saves so throwing empowered energy spells can take a few of them out. Another thing is that most intelligent monsters won't fight to the death if they can retreat so if it becomes apparent that the PC's will win, then have them run away. It is a reasonable option, and it is a few more bodies the DN can't use.
Zironic 04-27-08, 04:46 PM	The gems arn't that expensive (25g per HD) so creating 100 HD of undead power is only 2500 gold which a lvl 8 character can attain quite fast following the normal gold progression. However attaining the gems might not be so simple *devious grin* I think I solved the healing problem by the wonderfull feat in Libris Mortis: Tomb Tainted Soul: Heal with negative energy as an undead creature. Suddenly turns the very limited Dread Necro into quite a powerful healer.
wraithstrike 04-27-08, 05:43 PM	The gems arn't that expensive (25g per HD) so creating 100 HD of undead power is only 2500 gold which a lvl 8 character can attain quite fast following the normal gold progression. However attaining the gems might not be so simple *devious grin* I think I solved the healing problem by the wonderfull feat in Libris Mortis: Tomb Tainted Soul: Heal with negative energy as an undead creature. Suddenly turns the very limited Dread Necro into quite a powerful healer. If he maintains that 100 hd it is not hard, but to constantly replace them, as well as upgrade equipment is another issue.