......Lawful GOOD?................................ [Archive] - Wizards Community

......Lawful GOOD?................................ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JoJo monkey
08-30-05, 05:42 PM I'm sure this has come up 9 gazillion times but has Wizards ever put out any "official" text on how a Lawful good character should act under certain situations?

Situation....group comes across 2 lawful evil guys... we fight them...they give up...we are down deep in a temple and time is running out before the world as we know it comes to an end.....We cant leave them there....we know they have spell like abilities but dont know exactly what they are...we can't bring them along....no time to teleport them to town and come back....one of our Lawful good clerics thinks that justice will be best served if we off them right there....time is of the essence...the world might die if we dont get the mission done in time....they did try to murder us...the party is higher lvl then the leaders of the local governments....what to do?

Are LG characters always gimped and opposed to cutting down evil when there is little or no choice left?
Egres
08-30-05, 05:55 PM Take a look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050318a) and here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a)
pres_man
08-30-05, 06:15 PM In the situation you describe, I would take all of their gear (maybe leave them a non-magical dagger to defend themselves with). Take a lock of hair. And let them go. Tell them, should the world not be destroyed, you will be coming for them (now have plenty of stuff to assist with scrying and such). And that they should pray that when you find them they have gone the straight and narrow, or you shall let loose with all of your holy wrath. Then give them a swift kick in the rear and send them out the door.

In world destroying situations, what are few criminals. On the other hand, if the world does end, wouldn't it be better for most good folk to go out as merciful then as ruthless?
Angus Cotton
08-30-05, 06:27 PM group comes across 2 lawful evil guys... we fight them...they give up...we are down deep in a temple and time is running out before the world as we know it comes to an end.....We cant leave them there....we know they have spell like abilities but dont know exactly what...we can bring them along....no time to teleport them to town and come back....one of our Lawful good clerics thinks that justice will be best served if we off them right there....time is of the essence...the world might die if we dont get the mission done in time....they did try to murder us...the party is higher lvl then the leaders of the local governments....what to do?

My problem with just killing them right there is that they surrendered to you. Killing them to make the world saving easier is the "quick and easy" path. In fact, it might be construded as an evil act. The poster that said take their lock of hair and let them go had a good idea. Also, why not just ask them to help? Surely, even evil people don't want the world to end underneath them? Or, do they prefer to go to Baatar?

It is important to remember that just cause a person is evil, does not mean he is "guilty" of evil, meaning done evil acts etc etc. I am sure you can find people in your workplace that are probably aligned evil in game terms, bvut have not done anything to warrent punishment, jailtime, or death.
VinylVillichi
08-30-05, 06:52 PM What I have seen in many movies (she said, as if that were the definition of real life,) is that the defeated bad guys would then temporarily join the party until the world was saved and they saw a good escape point. (Think X-Men 2)

That is, of course, if these are NOT part of the group trying to destroy the world. If they are, then you cannot even risk the hair snatching scenario above. You need to bind them somehow. Do you have mages capable of some sort of extra dimensional prison? Any of the party rogues have a bag of holding? A good length of strong rope? but, since they surrendered, a LG character could not just kill them because it is more convenient, or even because they had to get on the doing the greater good, without jeopardizing the G part of the LG. However, if LE dudes surrendered, they should not try to escape immediately, or they are violating the L part of their LE, especially with the world in danger.
Gedrin
08-31-05, 02:16 AM 1. Attempted murder is often a crime punished by death, particularly in rugged or frontier areas and especially durring times of extreme emergency (the world is about to end).

2. You have no time or ability to place your prisoners in the custody of a just and rightful third party legal authority, or contain them securely.

3. Were you to attempt to contain or bring your prisoners along, you would place the entier world in jepoardy of being destroyed.

4. You can't let them go. They tried to kill you while you were trying to save the world. They'll likely try to kill other people if freed. Odds are, they'll try to help bring about the destruction of the world.

Basically, if there was a court there, they'd be executed. You don't have the luxury of a civilized justice system. Your choices appear to be:
A: Let them go, or leave them behind when they will likely escape. They escape punishment for their crimes. They likely kill others. They possibly stop you from saving the world from destruction.

B: Cary them with you until you can turn them over to the rightful authorities. They continue to pose a threat to you, and given the magnitued of your mission, their hinderance would be a threat to the survival of the world.

C: Execute them. Punish them for their crimes, as any just authority would do to such dire criminals in a time of extreme emergency. Posthumously try them for their crimes, at a later date (providing there is one) in front of a rightful legal authority, and resurect them if they are found innocent. Given that you are eye witnesses to their crime, and they appear to be part of the destroy the world team, it is unlikely they will be found innocent.

I say go with C. You are essentially in a wilderness situation. If there are going to be consequences for this evil, you are responsible for enforcing them.
JoJo monkey
09-01-05, 12:47 PM HHHhhhmmmmmm.........
weasel fierce
09-01-05, 12:50 PM Review the characters personality and tendencies first, alignment second.
Another Gnome
09-01-05, 02:42 PM As long as you're not a paladin, a murder here and another there is but inconvenience to a lawful good character.

Every adventurer is a thief and an assassin by necessity; heroes are those among them who live in denial. :)
Gedrin
09-02-05, 03:27 AM Though, this wouldn't be murder. I guess you could say that all executions are murder, but that's another argument that I'd rather not see addressed here.

They are guilty of attempted murder.
They pose a continuing threat to the party, innocents, and quite likely the entire world.
They can't be reliably contained by the PC's.
There is no local legal authority to adjudicate.

If we had reason to believe their surrender was sincere and permanent...sure, then they'd be containable.

As it stands, you have murderers, but no judges or jails. You can let them go, keep them with you, or apply the sentance a lawful court would apply if it were here. It may sound harsh, and uncivilized, but that's because it is. If it were a civilized situation, there would be some sort of judge or jail around.
High Octane
09-02-05, 10:23 AM Think of your character. Are their crimes beyond redemption in his mind? If so, smite their asses until they are smeared across the hall like some smoldering tire tracks that detect as evil for 1d6 rounds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoJo monkey 08-30-05, 05:42 PM	I'm sure this has come up 9 gazillion times but has Wizards ever put out any "official" text on how a Lawful good character should act under certain situations? Situation....group comes across 2 lawful evil guys... we fight them...they give up...we are down deep in a temple and time is running out before the world as we know it comes to an end.....We cant leave them there....we know they have spell like abilities but dont know exactly what they are...we can't bring them along....no time to teleport them to town and come back....one of our Lawful good clerics thinks that justice will be best served if we off them right there....time is of the essence...the world might die if we dont get the mission done in time....they did try to murder us...the party is higher lvl then the leaders of the local governments....what to do? Are LG characters always gimped and opposed to cutting down evil when there is little or no choice left?
Egres 08-30-05, 05:55 PM	Take a look here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050318a) and here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a)
pres_man 08-30-05, 06:15 PM	In the situation you describe, I would take all of their gear (maybe leave them a non-magical dagger to defend themselves with). Take a lock of hair. And let them go. Tell them, should the world not be destroyed, you will be coming for them (now have plenty of stuff to assist with scrying and such). And that they should pray that when you find them they have gone the straight and narrow, or you shall let loose with all of your holy wrath. Then give them a swift kick in the rear and send them out the door. In world destroying situations, what are few criminals. On the other hand, if the world does end, wouldn't it be better for most good folk to go out as merciful then as ruthless?
Angus Cotton 08-30-05, 06:27 PM	group comes across 2 lawful evil guys... we fight them...they give up...we are down deep in a temple and time is running out before the world as we know it comes to an end.....We cant leave them there....we know they have spell like abilities but dont know exactly what...we can bring them along....no time to teleport them to town and come back....one of our Lawful good clerics thinks that justice will be best served if we off them right there....time is of the essence...the world might die if we dont get the mission done in time....they did try to murder us...the party is higher lvl then the leaders of the local governments....what to do? My problem with just killing them right there is that they surrendered to you. Killing them to make the world saving easier is the "quick and easy" path. In fact, it might be construded as an evil act. The poster that said take their lock of hair and let them go had a good idea. Also, why not just ask them to help? Surely, even evil people don't want the world to end underneath them? Or, do they prefer to go to Baatar? It is important to remember that just cause a person is evil, does not mean he is "guilty" of evil, meaning done evil acts etc etc. I am sure you can find people in your workplace that are probably aligned evil in game terms, bvut have not done anything to warrent punishment, jailtime, or death.
VinylVillichi 08-30-05, 06:52 PM	What I have seen in many movies (she said, as if that were the definition of real life,) is that the defeated bad guys would then temporarily join the party until the world was saved and they saw a good escape point. (Think X-Men 2) That is, of course, if these are NOT part of the group trying to destroy the world. If they are, then you cannot even risk the hair snatching scenario above. You need to bind them somehow. Do you have mages capable of some sort of extra dimensional prison? Any of the party rogues have a bag of holding? A good length of strong rope? but, since they surrendered, a LG character could not just kill them because it is more convenient, or even because they had to get on the doing the greater good, without jeopardizing the G part of the LG. However, if LE dudes surrendered, they should not try to escape immediately, or they are violating the L part of their LE, especially with the world in danger.
Gedrin 08-31-05, 02:16 AM	1. Attempted murder is often a crime punished by death, particularly in rugged or frontier areas and especially durring times of extreme emergency (the world is about to end). 2. You have no time or ability to place your prisoners in the custody of a just and rightful third party legal authority, or contain them securely. 3. Were you to attempt to contain or bring your prisoners along, you would place the entier world in jepoardy of being destroyed. 4. You can't let them go. They tried to kill you while you were trying to save the world. They'll likely try to kill other people if freed. Odds are, they'll try to help bring about the destruction of the world. Basically, if there was a court there, they'd be executed. You don't have the luxury of a civilized justice system. Your choices appear to be: A: Let them go, or leave them behind when they will likely escape. They escape punishment for their crimes. They likely kill others. They possibly stop you from saving the world from destruction. B: Cary them with you until you can turn them over to the rightful authorities. They continue to pose a threat to you, and given the magnitued of your mission, their hinderance would be a threat to the survival of the world. C: Execute them. Punish them for their crimes, as any just authority would do to such dire criminals in a time of extreme emergency. Posthumously try them for their crimes, at a later date (providing there is one) in front of a rightful legal authority, and resurect them if they are found innocent. Given that you are eye witnesses to their crime, and they appear to be part of the destroy the world team, it is unlikely they will be found innocent. I say go with C. You are essentially in a wilderness situation. If there are going to be consequences for this evil, you are responsible for enforcing them.
JoJo monkey 09-01-05, 12:47 PM	HHHhhhmmmmmm.........
weasel fierce 09-01-05, 12:50 PM	Review the characters personality and tendencies first, alignment second.
Another Gnome 09-01-05, 02:42 PM	As long as you're not a paladin, a murder here and another there is but inconvenience to a lawful good character. Every adventurer is a thief and an assassin by necessity; heroes are those among them who live in denial. :)
Gedrin 09-02-05, 03:27 AM	Though, this wouldn't be murder. I guess you could say that all executions are murder, but that's another argument that I'd rather not see addressed here. They are guilty of attempted murder. They pose a continuing threat to the party, innocents, and quite likely the entire world. They can't be reliably contained by the PC's. There is no local legal authority to adjudicate. If we had reason to believe their surrender was sincere and permanent...sure, then they'd be containable. As it stands, you have murderers, but no judges or jails. You can let them go, keep them with you, or apply the sentance a lawful court would apply if it were here. It may sound harsh, and uncivilized, but that's because it is. If it were a civilized situation, there would be some sort of judge or jail around.
High Octane 09-02-05, 10:23 AM	Think of your character. Are their crimes beyond redemption in his mind? If so, smite their asses until they are smeared across the hall like some smoldering tire tracks that detect as evil for 1d6 rounds.