Post/Author/DateTime	Post
penguin973 06-17-04, 04:11 PM	hey yall. im bout to have my first true game this weekend. i was wondering if i could get yalls imput on all the things yall hate that newbies do. please, i dont want to look too stupid my first day. thanks in advance.
Bacon and Eggs 06-17-04, 04:11 PM	New guy buys the pizza.
Not a monkey 06-17-04, 04:20 PM	Bring your own dice, pencil, eraser, and blank paper. Preprinted character sheets too if you can. I for one don't mind lending stuff out much, but it's always nicer not to have to.
MrkGrismer 06-17-04, 04:26 PM	Make sure you are familiar with the combat section of the player's handbook and your character.
lostcause 06-17-04, 04:29 PM	If you think you are probably going to become a regular player and can afford it I recomend buying the Player's Handbook. It will provide you with most of the information you need. You will be able to look up most of the things you might have questions about without disrupting the flow of the game too much. Most DMs appreciate it when player's brings their own PHB because it makes things flow quicker especially when forming a new party because people do not have to wait to look up things when creating a character. If this DM plays by heavily modified rules you might wnat to check with him about using the book first.
Valoy_Muniz 06-17-04, 04:36 PM	Do not ask what die is the d6 more then 100 times the first day.
Sulaco 06-17-04, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by penguin973 hey yall. im bout to have my first true game this weekend. i was wondering if i could get yalls imput on all the things yall hate that newbies do. please, i dont want to look too stupid my first day. thanks in advance. Rule 1: Don't say "yall" so much, it sounds silly.
was_fired 06-17-04, 04:46 PM	1. Know what d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and most importantly d20 mean 2. Remember that d20s are used for everything except damage rolls. 3. Don't argue with the DM about basic game mechanics. Wait until you know the rules well enough to be considered a skilled rules lawyer first. 4. Don't steal from the other PCs or attack them or insult them. Get to know the guys first.
HamHam 06-17-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Sulaco Rule 1: Don't say "yall" so much, it sounds silly. Meh, that's a regional issue, so it depends on where he lives. Although y'all is the correct spelling... ;) :D :rolleyes: :cool:
meabolex 06-17-04, 06:57 PM	Originally posted by Sulaco Rule 1: Don't say "yall" so much, it sounds silly. Rule 2: Don't say "eh" so much, it sounds silly. (: As in, "don't you like that, eh."
meabolex 06-17-04, 07:05 PM	Originally posted by penguin973 hey yall. im bout to have my first true game this weekend. i was wondering if i could get yalls imput on all the things yall hate that newbies do. please, i dont want to look too stupid my first day. thanks in advance. Here's a hint that will make almost everyone's life easier: play a melee-based character like a fighter or barbarian. Don't play a character with skills and spells. Those you just have to 'know' in order to be really effective. You could go through every skill/spell and memorize how they work to precision. But you'd be the first player EVER in my knowledge to come to a game knowing that stuff without any game experience. Keep It Sorta Simple (:
Bulabase 06-17-04, 07:06 PM	Try to be familiar with the rules you think will pertain to your character. If you plan to play a spellcaster, know the spells on your list. If this is truly your first time, I would not reccomend playing a cleric as they get too many spells to deal with. Play a Sorcerer if you must. New guy buys the pizza. Right on. Rule 1: Don't say "yall" so much, it sounds silly. Not to me, but then again, I have a taste for iced tea and fried okra.
Seeker95 06-17-04, 07:07 PM	Read through the Player's Handbook one more time, pages 7-168. If you are playing a spellcaster, go ahead and write out on 3x5 cards (or whatever size you want) the spells and their descriptions that you have prepared. When you roll in combat, go ahead and roll both to hit and damage dice at the same time. If you hit, the damage is ready to go. Go ahead and calculate your total "to hit" bonus and "damage" bonus, so that you can just tell the DM what AC you hit with any given roll. Speak "in character", saying "I do XYZ" instead of "my character does XYZ".
DoveArrow 06-17-04, 07:37 PM	1) Buy the Player's Handbook. This is an expensive purchase, but it is well worth it. This book tells you everything you need to know about the basics of playing your character. if you can afford it, I also recommend buying the Dungeon Master's Guide, because it's a useful tool for creating characters higher than 1st level. Realize also that if you hate the game, you have at least three other people at the table who would love to buy the books off of you. Also, remember ebay. 2) Create your own character. Don't let your DM do it for you, or a friend, or anyone else. Let them help you, but try to do as much of it yourself as possible. This will familiarize yourself with most of the basic rules of combat, skills and equipment that you will need to effectively run your character. 3) Read the rules over and over. If you're a fighter, this means reading the feat descriptions and the combat section of the PHB. If you're a spellcaster, this means looking up the descriptions of your spells. There are a lot of rules in the PHB and even the most avid player still needs to look up the rules for bull rush from time to time. 4) Figure out what you want to do and look up how to do it long before it's your turn. Now sometimes, this one is difficult to follow because sometimes you want to perform a charge attack and at the last second, the rogue gets in the way. Nevertheless, it's probably a good idea to figure out who you're attacking, how you're going to attack them and how the rules for that kind of attack work before you declare that you're performing that action. This saves time at the table, because you're not spending five minutes looking up turn undead when it's your turn. 5) Let the other players help you. In other words, metagame. Now I only recommend this for new players, but trust me it helps. If you're not sure what you should do simply because you're inexperienced at playing, ask the other players for some help in coming up with a course of action. This will do two things: First, it will help you learn what attack options are out there, and second, it will help you learn the playing style of the group you're playing in. 6) Roll whatever dice the other players tell you to roll. This makes the beginning game go something like this: Player 1: Okay, roll a d20. You: [roll] Okay. Player 1: Okay, you rolled an 11. Now what's your to hit? You: I don't know. Player 1: Let me see your sheet. [Looks at your sheet] Okay, it's plus six so you hit for 17. DM: You hit him. Player 1: Okay, what weapon are you using? You: Longsword. Player 1: Okay roll a d8. You: [roll] Okay. Player 1: Okay, you rolled a 5. What's your Strength? You: 14. Player 1: Okay, that's a +2 to your damage, so you did 7 points of damage. You: [bewildered] Okay. This may all seem a bit bewildering at first, but eventually you'll start to see the pattern in the chaos. 7) Never be embarassed to roleplay your character. Sometimes, character concepts that you come up with are very different from the way you are as a person and can be a little intimidating to play. Nevertheless, play them how you think they should be played. If you see them as loud and boisterous, play them as loud and boisterous. If they're a petite little pixie, use that high squeaky voice you've been hearing in your head. This may get a little bit of ribbing from the other players at first, but trust me, eventually they stop and your character becomes one of the most memorable characters played in a long time. I could probably come up with three more things if I really tried, but I can't think of anything else that's really important. Realize too that these are my experiences as a roleplayer and so they might not work for you. Nevertheless, they helped me become the DM that I am today. Good luck to you and keep checking back.
Ogre4Hire 06-17-04, 07:43 PM	If you aren't too good with arithmatic, bring a calculator or some scratch paper. Make sure you have a sharp pencil with a good eraser (I recommend a mechanical pencil, since it won't get dull). And the most important thing to remember is: if you don't understand something, don't be afraid to ask. Everyone else in the group has been exactly where you are now.
DoveArrow 06-17-04, 08:00 PM	Here's a hint that will make almost everyone's life easier: play a melee-based character like a fighter or barbarian. Don't play a character with skills and spells. Those you just have to 'know' in order to be really effective. And don't take this advice too seriously. In fact, play a spellcaster as soon as you can. The reason for this is because you still don't have any preconceptions about what spells are good or not. The longer you play, whether you like it or not, the more your group's preconceptions are going to affect your style of play. So play that spellcaster, load helping hand and show them just how cool that spell can really be. Now on that note, the one thing you have to know as a spellcaster is your spells. Go over them and over them and over them. Then when you've done that, go over them again. Load the ones that you think are the best and then in game, when it's not your turn, look them up one more time before you cast. Meanwhile, if you want some of the best spell sheets around, go to www.geocities.com/toytools/dnd/ (http://www.geocities.com/toytools/dnd/). These sheets have all the spell descriptions right on them, so you can have a general idea of what you're casting without having to look it up. And trust me, playing a spellcaster as your first character can be done. Not only did I do it, but I showed my group a thing or two about playing clerics when I did.
penguin973 06-17-04, 08:17 PM	great stuff guys. im not a dnd prude anymore, just basically went over some stuff in the players handbook while at work, and from what yall have suggested, ive got to have gotten as far as 2nd base at least. btw, someone was correct earlier when they suggested that my use of yall is a regional type thing. born in ft. hood and have lived in east texas all my life!
Edymnion 06-17-04, 08:23 PM	Read the PHB. Then read it again. Seriously, if you know the stuff in that book, you'll be fine. Nothing makes you look more newbish than constantly going "Wait, hold on, I need to look up how I do that..." You should pretty much know everything relevant to your character, and you'll be golden.
penguin973 06-17-04, 08:31 PM	by the way. someone i was talking to about dnd, simply stated "be creative and you can get more experience points" and said something to the effect that you can do anything can someone give some examples about some of the types of things i can do, rather than what i know to be purchasing equiptment and potions and attacking monsters.
Not a monkey 06-17-04, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by penguin973 by the way. someone i was talking to about dnd, simply stated "be creative and you can get more experience points" and said something to the effect that you can do anything can someone give some examples about some of the types of things i can do, rather than what i know to be purchasing equiptment and potions and attacking monsters. Do what your character would do. Talk to people. Get :censored:-faced with the drunks at the tavern. Chat up the town watch and see where there's trouble. Weedle your way into the duke's ball and get mixed up in politics. Make advances on innocent farmers' daughters. Find out from sailors and caravaners what's going on in distant lands (and laugh at their funny accents). Get disgusted by the local delicacies at the dwarvish deli. Confuse a tailor by trying to buy a half-orc sized tutu. Basically, never be afraid to ask your DM "so what else is around?" and play with the scenery.
wdarkk 06-17-04, 08:45 PM	Dig a deep pit, lure a monster into it, and suffocate it by covering the pit. That's not the most innovative of tactics, but it is something they don't tell you about in the PHB that you can do.
Edymnion 06-17-04, 09:15 PM	Originally posted by penguin973 can someone give some examples about some of the types of things i can do, rather than what i know to be purchasing equiptment and potions and attacking monsters. D&D is not a video game. You are not restricted in what you can do. If you see a table and chairs, you can pick the chair up and bash someone with it. You see a locked door, you can bash it down. Or heck, you can try to hack your way through a stone wall to get to the other side. You can spend all your time chatting to NPCs, or picking out what to wear. You can do literally ANYTHING you think of doing. This is within reason, of course. You can't just pick up and fly without the right spells, and you can't just be god's gift to women just because you said you were, but you can decide to attempt anything you want. Entire campaigns can be run where you NEVER so much as roll initiative, much less get into actual combat. Thats why I don't like computer versions of D&D games. It doesn't matter how good they are, they're always going to be infinitely more restrictive than a real sit down pen and paper game of D&D could ever be, simply because the technology does not exist to replace an intelligent human Dungeon Master that can alter anything on a whim.
penguin973 06-17-04, 09:36 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Entire campaigns can be run where you NEVER so much as roll initiative, much less get into actual combat. that says alot. thanks guys for all yalls imput. if what yall are saying is any indication of how i can play this game, then it seems like im about to go on a real adventure. much thanks.
was_fired 06-18-04, 03:03 AM	Lets see crazy junk my players did at low levels... You can go on quests to ancient oracles, make your way through puzzles, and then realize you don't have any good questions to ask them. You can prepare an ambush as you and your allies climb trees and entangle your foes as you rain death upon them. You can kill things with swords, spells, large falling objects, bows, heads throw from enemies (very lucky roll but that was high level), and an array of other melee weapons. You can break into secure facilities by sneaking past the guards and finally reaching your destination only to realize you can't open the lock (level 5 or so). You can fight bandits or people you think are bandits only to find out they weren't bandits and you just randomly attacked them. You can fight hordes of undead to save prisoners, cities, the world, the universe, etc. You can die as a commoner attacks you for stealing his pocket change. As a dragon eats you. As an orc gets a lucky roll and removes your head. As a horde of enemies descend upon you draining your life force. As you trip into a huge pit. As you a throw into a sphere of anihation. You can die in a whole host of ways. :P
Geethree 06-18-04, 03:20 AM	Some of this might be redundant... 1) Don't think in terms of rules, think in terms of a freeform roleplaying experience. Think logically, not numerically. In other words, if you have to get past a locked door, you shouldn't think, "I need a rogue with Open Lock of at least +15," however, you might think, "we could pick the lock, bash it down, or find another way around. Maybe I could convince a local guard that I'm really an employee of this place and he'll let us in." 2) Play your character, not the game. If you're playing a character who is as dumb as a rock, don't come up with cunning plans and then eloquently describe them to the other players. 3) Read the PHB again, just to be safe. Nothing is worse than having a new guy who doesn't know the rules. 4) Don't be afraid to ask questions. While having a player who is unfamiliar with the rules can be frustrating, it's also a necessary evil. It will take a little while for you to become comfortable. 5) Don't be a rules-lawyer. Don't argue with DM rulings. If the DM does anything that upsets you, wait until there is a break in the game (this might mean waiting until it's over) and express your concerns in a calm manner. 6) Create a structured, organized character sheet with combat modifiers already calculated. For instance, if you're a fighter with a longsword, write something on your sheet like, "longsword; +4 to hit (+2 BAB, +2 strength), 1d8+2 damage (+2 strength)." If you don't know what those numbers mean, read the PHB. Having all of your standard modifiers calculated already will let you simply reference them during combat as opposed to constantly having to calculate them. Note that my example also tells you where the numbers came from. 7) Don't play a character that you're not comfortable playing. If you think being a bard is a daunting task, be something simpler. 8) Most importantly: D&D IS NOT A VIDEOGAME; DO NOT TREAT IT LIKE ONE. If any of these tips don't make sense to you, don't worry; they will eventually.
Mr. VanderMeer 06-18-04, 06:13 AM	my advice to a starting player would be; take it seriously. Don't try to create a silly character. Don't have your character try to pull pranks on everybody. Don't try to stall developments of the game. Above all, don't be annoying and then use the 'but my characters' personality is like that!' excuse. That sucks. Just show a little commitment and motivation and you will be fine. The will to learn and to play is much more important than having a lot of knowledge prior to starting the game. You can pick the rules up as you go.
Esswer 06-18-04, 06:51 AM	I'd say, just be honest, admit that you are no powergamer yet, and look how the other play. Do be afraid to make mistakes, you will have a lot of time laughing at them later! :) Other from that, just be yourself, and roleplay someone like yourself the first time (just a way to make the other players get to know you as a person). Do let the others learn you to play the game, listen, look and feel how their game goes. I don't think it's a bad way to start being humble, and not burst out rules and houserules the very first session.
Sulaco 06-18-04, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Bulabase Not to me, but then again, I have a taste for iced tea and fried okra. As do I, and I'm Canadian. There is a difference between the manner in which one speaks and the manner in which one writes. Slang, dialects, and coloquialisms are fine when spoken, but unnecessary, awkward, and an impedence to clear communication when written. Also, I once again assumed that a ;) was implicit in my post. My mistake. My advice is simple: Familiarize yourself with the rules ahead of time if you can. Don't try to memorize them, just get a feel for them. Ditto for the dice and character sheets, though a more thorough understanding of these is required. Play a straight fighter for the first time. The fighter is the least complicated class and it will also help you get a good grounding in the combat system. Pay attention to what others are doing - especially when it relates to other classes and their skills and abilities.
Escef 06-18-04, 10:08 AM	Originally posted by Geethree Some of this might be redundant... 1) Don't think in terms of rules, think in terms of a freeform roleplaying experience. Think logically, not numerically. In other words, if you have to get past a locked door, you shouldn't think, "I need a rogue with Open Lock of at least +15," however, you might think, "we could pick the lock, bash it down, or find another way around. Maybe I could convince a local guard that I'm really an employee of this place and he'll let us in."\ One of the best tactics I've ever seen for getting through a locked door was something else. Burn it down. If someone says "I attackthe darkness!" and everyone else laughs, don't bother being confused. You will be enlightened soon enough.
Bulabase 06-18-04, 01:16 PM	Originally posted by Sulaco As do I, and I'm Canadian. I suppose if we have ice hockey down here, you can have okra up there. I agree with you comments about written vs. oral communication as I use "y'awl" in speech but I don't write it. This is pretty much all toung in cheek, though. ;) On topic: Don't let a desire to "win" distract you from role-playing your character. If your character is afraid of spiders, don't abandon that just because some "phat lewt" is guarded by a giant spider. IMX, it's a lot more fun to "loose" in character than to win at all costs.
HamHam 06-18-04, 01:30 PM	OTOH, y'all is very hard to replace if you are used to using it, simply because there isn't a simple replacement for it that is more appropriate to a written form. "You all" sounds rather dumb and "you guys" has gender issues. Not using y'all usually requires a seperate sentence structure. ;) :cool: Also, remember, the point is to HAVE FUN. There is no winner or loser, heck, having your character die can be fun if you do it in an apropriately heroic manner. So, focus on having fun, and don't be too bothered by details.
Not a monkey 06-18-04, 01:36 PM	Originally posted by HamHam OTOH, y'all is very hard to replace if you are used to using it, simply because there isn't a simple replacement for it that is more appropriate to a written form. "You all" sounds rather dumb and "you guys" has gender issues. Not using y'all usually requires a seperate sentence structure. ;) :cool: Should Have Been Originally posted by penguin973 Hey. I'm about to have my first true game this weekend. I was wondering if I could get your input on all the things you hate that newbies do. Please, I don't want to look too stupid my first day. Thanks in advance. Just had to nitpick.:D I don't think I significantly changed the sentence structure. Also, I couldn't resist fixing punctation and capitalization while I was at it.
Stark Raven 06-18-04, 01:40 PM	Best advice I can think of is, don't go into it thinking that 'tis all about you. DnD is a group activity and you'll get a lot more fun out of it if you don't use it as an excuse to be a self-centered ass. I've known way too many players that figured that since it was make believe, they could do whatever they wanted with no repercussions. This often led to them ruining the game for everyone else. Nobody likes a player that tries to hog the spotlight all the time, or does stupid things just because they think they can get away with it (like killing random innocents on a whim and then whining when the local constabulary nabs them for it). 'Tis most vehemently *not* a video game and 'tis especially not a medium for playing out one's sick fantasies at the expense of everyone else's fun.
JLP 06-18-04, 02:10 PM	Just have fun. And don't fondle the chainmail bikini mini too much.
Capt. Pixel 06-18-04, 02:45 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Here's a hint that will make almost everyone's life easier: play a melee-based character like a fighter or barbarian. Don't play a character with skills and spells. Those you just have to 'know' in order to be really effective. You could go through every skill/spell and memorize how they work to precision. But you'd be the first player EVER in my knowledge to come to a game knowing that stuff without any game experience. Keep It Sorta Simple (: BINGO!! Probably the single best piece of advice on this thread. Nothing irritates the other players more than a new player who's bitten off more than he can chew. Start simple and work your way to the more complex character types as you gain gaming experience - Please!! :rolleyes:
lostcause 06-18-04, 04:10 PM	I know I already replied but I forgot to add something that I tell all my new players when I DM: Of coure you should have fun and try things that you would never or could never do in real life but try to roleplay your character as though there were real world consequences to your actions.
DrFiendish 06-18-04, 09:04 PM	And most importantly, never go off by your lonesome. Bad things can happen.;)
MadMan 06-18-04, 09:06 PM	And if you meet a Tarrasque, run!
Valoy_Muniz 06-18-04, 09:41 PM	Also Dragons are in the title of the game fear them even if you are stronger then them.
SnowbearK 06-18-04, 11:30 PM	I have just two things to add. 1) Even though it's been said about 20 times already, I'm going to add it...RTFM. Read the PHB. More than just that though, UNDERSTAND it. If you don't understand it, reading it doesn't do you any good. If you have questions about any rules you don't understand, talk to the DM before the game. 2) Don't just fear dragons "even if you are stronger than them." Fear your self for thinking you're stronger than them.
Edymnion 06-18-04, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by Escef One of the best tactics I've ever seen for getting through a locked door was something else. Burn it down. Nope, thats not the best tactic. The best way to get past a locked door that I've ever seen posted on these boards is... knock. Not the spell, just knock on the door. Think about it. Whoever is on the other side is NOT going to expect an invader to KNOCK on the door! If you're in a castle like setting, knock on the door, and tell them that invaders have breached the walls. When they open up to find out whats going on, knock their teeth out. They'll never expect you to just knock politely, and it'll throw them into a tizzy.
Rpgpunk 06-18-04, 11:59 PM	Knocking doesn't always work though. The GM catches on to what you're doing when you try to do that more than a few times. I prefer to just pick the lock.
Dareon 06-19-04, 05:55 AM	Better yet, pick the lock, THEN knock. That way, if knocking doesn't work, you've still got the door unlocked. Then hide their welcome mat. Back on topic, the best advice cannot be stressed enough: Read the PHB. You probably shouldn't try and memorize prices and damages, except for the weapons/spells you'll be using. But know the combat system. Plan out your next round's moves as soon as you've acted in the current round. But have a backup plan in case, to use an example given above, the rogue gets in the way of your charge. Whatever you can do to make the DM's job easier, do it. This means speeding combat along without fumbling for dice and rules, etc. If you have an idea for a character and you'll be playing new characters at the next session, wait until the session to roll him out. I've seen several DMs complaining about pre-rolled characters, since that's a veritable bastion of munchkinry. What I do is I have, on a sheet of scrap or notebook paper, the name (if any), basic concept (Ftr spec. qtrstf, Drd spec. mustelids, etc.), attributes ranked 1 to 6 showing where your rolls would go, feats, and skills ranked up to 3 or 4 over the class-based skill point allowance, to allow for high Int bonus. Don't bother with prestige classes the first time through. More often than not, they just make things more complicated, but if you go along with your character class and suddenly qualify for a PrC, think about it. If your character would gain some good RP opportunities or party support skills, I'd go for it. But I wouldn't plan my first character on eventually making it into a PrC. There are some you can't help but play that way, such as the Bbn-Exotic Weapons Master (Which requires you to waste three feats to be able to use every single weapon that's in the game and several that aren't. Nice benefit, but the lack of feats can hurt later.), but for your first, second, and probably third characters, play what you want from the base classes, taking a PrC if you qualify and it looks right for RP reasons. There's no real reason for a Monk/Sorceror to take Virtuoso, for instance. You could come up with a reason, but it likely wouldn't have happened through in-game RP. The PrCs mentioned above bring up another point: If you have or have access to the supplemental splatbooks, ask the DM before using stuff out of them. Of course, if the DM has supplied the splatbooks for the table, you may most likely freely raid them for goodies. ...Hmm. That's probably gone beyond just advice for the beginner, but hey. You won't be a beginner for long, and some of the advanced stuff may help.
Geethree 06-19-04, 04:46 PM	If someone says "I attackthe darkness!" and everyone else laughs, don't bother being confused. You will be enlightened soon enough.Actually, I'd be worried if my group did laugh if somebody said that. :)
penguin973 06-19-04, 04:52 PM	whats the connotation in dnd for "i attack the darkness"
lordsathien 06-20-04, 03:31 AM	That would be an in-joke Do a search for "Deadale Wives", you should come up with one or two mp3s, download them, listen to them, memorize the quotes. Enjoy "Where're the cheetohs!!??"
Ormus 06-20-04, 11:33 AM	If you intend to play more than one session, buy your own books. This will help you greatly with absorbing the rules, and picking up the game quicker. As a DM, I often feel like my players don't care very much about the game. I mean, if I say we are playing in Greyhawk, it would be nice if my players would either go buy the books or read some Canonfire to learn about it. This would take a lot of burden off me, and then I don't have to type lengthy handouts about setting info that players would otherwise be able to just look up themselves. I guess what I am saying is, be willing to work at it. Even if I have a newbie player, if I can tell he is working hard at learning the rules and the setting, he'll always get the benefit of the doubt.
penguin973 06-20-04, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by lordsathien That would be an in-joke Do a search for "Deadale Wives", you should come up with one or two mp3s, download them, listen to them, memorize the quotes. Enjoy "Where're the cheetohs!!??" i googled it and came across a flash version of the skit using 8-bit characters. the dialogue was fine and hilarious, but i dont think the animation did the skit any justice.
penguin973 06-20-04, 12:17 PM	i found this much more amusing. http://mikesimon.com/funny/ogre.mpeg
Ormus 06-20-04, 12:48 PM	Originally posted by penguin973 i found this much more amusing. http://mikesimon.com/funny/ogre.mpeg That is...something else man... :twitch: