1001 things to do to a rules lawyer [Archive] - Wizards Community

1001 things to do to a rules lawyer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fencerboy
02-11-07, 09:39 PM Ok, this thread is meant for 2 things:
1. 1001 cruel, stupid or unrealistic things to do to a rules lawyer (i.e. hit "it" with a chair)
and
2. 1001 good, useful anecdotes or bits of advice on dealing with annoying rules lawyers.

Go ahead, lets tell 'em!!!
Vaelan
02-11-07, 09:53 PM Thank them for their input? I don't know exactly what kind of connotation you attach to the term, though it seems fairly obvious that it is negative in nature.
Fencerboy
02-11-07, 10:00 PM My definition of a rules lawyer is someone who is a stickler for the tiniest rule at the stupidest time. Whether slowing down the game by checking all through some book to find an obscure variant for an appraise check or argueing with the DM about a given monsters abilities. (Some of my players are aspiring DMs and soown the core, and will inevitably start correcting me on how to use a given monster. Usually, they have guessed wrong, or I have altered the monster in some way.)
A rules lawyer in my book is someone with a great knowledge of the rules that is overused in place of role-playing and the ocasional "winging it" approach.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, BTW.
fatal error
02-11-07, 11:10 PM 1. Tell them to sit down, shut up, and act like they're in a high fantasy action movie, not a miniatures game.
Chrono Nexus
02-11-07, 11:18 PM Thank them for their input.
Good DMs should be able to accept their own errors and keep the respect of the group at the same time. Not saying that houserules are errors, just that knowing the rules better than the DM shouldn't be seen as a threat but as a resource by the DM.
TheChilliGod
02-11-07, 11:37 PM Okay. What has everyone else done to me, recently? :D

-Tell 'em to shut up and calm down. Take deep breaths. It's a game with rules that are allowed to be bended.
-Reply to anything rules-lawyerese they say with "Your Mom!" It ends all arguments.
-Ask them for advice. Treat them like audio books for the PHB. If you agree with their answer, then the game has just been made that much more faster. If not, then time may be wasted for you not trusting them.
-Slap them on both cheeks in quick succession.
Sarella Starshine
02-11-07, 11:41 PM There is a difference between a player who knows the rules and a rules lawyer.

The first knows that while the rules do exist and that while the DM may be in error, he will never try to be disruptive and will let DM judgement stand. He may ask the DM about something he feels in error but will let the DM make on the fly rulings if it will progress the game, even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong.

A rules lawyer on the other hand..will call the DM out on every little thing the rules lawyer feels is breaking the rules, refuses to let the DM make judgements on the fly, and in general be as disruptive as possible to try and get the best advantage possible out of the rules.
angryman
02-11-07, 11:44 PM Kill them horribly completely within the rules. An Adamantium Horror will do the trick. Add as many as you need to increase their relative CR. Then tell them that, yeah, sometimes the rules work against rules lawyers, especially noisy ones.
Horatio
02-12-07, 03:34 AM The worst thing I ever did to a rules lawyer was proving him wrong :D
Einvaldurinn_mikli
02-12-07, 07:56 AM Ok, this thread is meant for 2 things:
1. 1001 cruel, stupid or unrealistic things to do to a rules lawyer (i.e. hit "it" with a chair)

What do you mean unrealistic, you mean you don't hit your rules lawyer with a chair every few sessions?:confused:
boozerker
02-12-07, 09:58 AM 7. Hire them
boozerker
02-12-07, 10:15 AM There is a difference between a player who knows the rules and a rules lawyer.

The first knows that while the rules do exist and that while the DM may be in error, he will never try to be disruptive and will let DM judgement stand. He may ask the DM about something he feels in error but will let the DM make on the fly rulings if it will progress the game, even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong.
Turn that into a conversation. Privately, before the game.

"Let's try not to be disruptive from now on. My judgements stand. Anyone, including you, may ask me about something they feel in error, but I'll also make unchallengeable rulings on the fly, if it progresses the game -- even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong."
d20diceroller
02-12-07, 01:29 PM Okay. What has everyone else done to me, recently? :D

-Reply to anything rules-lawyerese they say with "Your Mom!" It ends all arguments.

And depending on the company- immediately starts fights.:eek:
kelvinaw273
02-12-07, 04:46 PM I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite.

Another trick is to know the rules, as most rules-lawyers I have ever played with tend to know the bits that favour them and forget all the others. You know the sort of thing - an optional rule suddenly becomes compulsory, they recall one half of a rule that says one thing and not the other half that says that there are drawbacks.
khyron1144
02-12-07, 04:53 PM Hand them something like the 2e Complete Book of Elves and ask them to design an optimum character for you.

The only way to deal with evil is to make it useful to you.
Firestar27
02-12-07, 05:47 PM I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite.
So try to "remind" him that improved critical doesn't stack with keen. Whenever he makes a mistake that helps you, remind him about hte mistake, and watch as that ruling becomes permanent. Then use that to your advantage.
angryman
02-12-07, 09:06 PM So try to "remind" him that improved critical doesn't stack with keen. Whenever he makes a mistake that helps you, remind him about hte mistake, and watch as that ruling becomes permanent. Then use that to your advantage.

"Spell Focus doesn't give +2 to your school's DC!"
"Spellcasting Prodigy doesn't effectively raise your prime casting stat by 2."
"Of course wizards don't get armour proficiency: mecha!"

Wee, I wish my DM was that dumb.
frasmage
02-12-07, 09:07 PM If they get really out of hand and annoying do this:

-pull as much legal-by-RAW cheese as possible out of your pocket. And have it only target the rules lawyer's character. For example, have punpun walk in punch his character and walk out.

any of endless combos out there would be a great way of telling him to shut up. They should get the message that you know the extent the rules can go to and will stop worrying so much least their character's suffer from more cheapness
ornitholestes
02-12-07, 09:15 PM I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite.

Another trick is to know the rules, as most rules-lawyers I have ever played with tend to know the bits that favour them and forget all the others. You know the sort of thing - an optional rule suddenly becomes compulsory, they recall one half of a rule that says one thing and not the other half that says that there are drawbacks.

I've certainly been there - I once had a player swear to me that you could make a "called shot to the head" at a -8 penalty for an instant kill hit (no save or anything). He proceeded to demand that it works and that it would let him kill another player character. (Even though he could never find this "rule" in any of the books)

He wasn't too happy when I finally conceded to the whining and brought in the level 1 true strike kobold sorcerer brigade. He then proceeded to tell me this rule only works for player characters. . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fencerboy 02-11-07, 09:39 PM	Ok, this thread is meant for 2 things: 1. 1001 cruel, stupid or unrealistic things to do to a rules lawyer (i.e. hit "it" with a chair) and 2. 1001 good, useful anecdotes or bits of advice on dealing with annoying rules lawyers. Go ahead, lets tell 'em!!!
Vaelan 02-11-07, 09:53 PM	Thank them for their input? I don't know exactly what kind of connotation you attach to the term, though it seems fairly obvious that it is negative in nature.
Fencerboy 02-11-07, 10:00 PM	My definition of a rules lawyer is someone who is a stickler for the tiniest rule at the stupidest time. Whether slowing down the game by checking all through some book to find an obscure variant for an appraise check or argueing with the DM about a given monsters abilities. (Some of my players are aspiring DMs and soown the core, and will inevitably start correcting me on how to use a given monster. Usually, they have guessed wrong, or I have altered the monster in some way.) A rules lawyer in my book is someone with a great knowledge of the rules that is overused in place of role-playing and the ocasional "winging it" approach. I don't mean to offend anyone here, BTW.
fatal error 02-11-07, 11:10 PM	1. Tell them to sit down, shut up, and act like they're in a high fantasy action movie, not a miniatures game.
Chrono Nexus 02-11-07, 11:18 PM	Thank them for their input. Good DMs should be able to accept their own errors and keep the respect of the group at the same time. Not saying that houserules are errors, just that knowing the rules better than the DM shouldn't be seen as a threat but as a resource by the DM.
TheChilliGod 02-11-07, 11:37 PM	Okay. What has everyone else done to me, recently? :D -Tell 'em to shut up and calm down. Take deep breaths. It's a game with rules that are allowed to be bended. -Reply to anything rules-lawyerese they say with "Your Mom!" It ends all arguments. -Ask them for advice. Treat them like audio books for the PHB. If you agree with their answer, then the game has just been made that much more faster. If not, then time may be wasted for you not trusting them. -Slap them on both cheeks in quick succession.
Sarella Starshine 02-11-07, 11:41 PM	There is a difference between a player who knows the rules and a rules lawyer. The first knows that while the rules do exist and that while the DM may be in error, he will never try to be disruptive and will let DM judgement stand. He may ask the DM about something he feels in error but will let the DM make on the fly rulings if it will progress the game, even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong. A rules lawyer on the other hand..will call the DM out on every little thing the rules lawyer feels is breaking the rules, refuses to let the DM make judgements on the fly, and in general be as disruptive as possible to try and get the best advantage possible out of the rules.
angryman 02-11-07, 11:44 PM	Kill them horribly completely within the rules. An Adamantium Horror will do the trick. Add as many as you need to increase their relative CR. Then tell them that, yeah, sometimes the rules work against rules lawyers, especially noisy ones.
Horatio 02-12-07, 03:34 AM	The worst thing I ever did to a rules lawyer was proving him wrong :D
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-12-07, 07:56 AM	Ok, this thread is meant for 2 things: 1. 1001 cruel, stupid or unrealistic things to do to a rules lawyer (i.e. hit "it" with a chair) What do you mean unrealistic, you mean you don't hit your rules lawyer with a chair every few sessions?:confused:
boozerker 02-12-07, 09:58 AM	7. Hire them
boozerker 02-12-07, 10:15 AM	There is a difference between a player who knows the rules and a rules lawyer. The first knows that while the rules do exist and that while the DM may be in error, he will never try to be disruptive and will let DM judgement stand. He may ask the DM about something he feels in error but will let the DM make on the fly rulings if it will progress the game, even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong. Turn that into a conversation. Privately, before the game. "Let's try not to be disruptive from now on. My judgements stand. Anyone, including you, may ask me about something they feel in error, but I'll also make unchallengeable rulings on the fly, if it progresses the game -- even if those rulings later turn out to be wrong."
d20diceroller 02-12-07, 01:29 PM	Okay. What has everyone else done to me, recently? :D -Reply to anything rules-lawyerese they say with "Your Mom!" It ends all arguments. And depending on the company- immediately starts fights.:eek:
kelvinaw273 02-12-07, 04:46 PM	I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite. Another trick is to know the rules, as most rules-lawyers I have ever played with tend to know the bits that favour them and forget all the others. You know the sort of thing - an optional rule suddenly becomes compulsory, they recall one half of a rule that says one thing and not the other half that says that there are drawbacks.
khyron1144 02-12-07, 04:53 PM	Hand them something like the 2e Complete Book of Elves and ask them to design an optimum character for you. The only way to deal with evil is to make it useful to you.
Firestar27 02-12-07, 05:47 PM	I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite. So try to "remind" him that improved critical doesn't stack with keen. Whenever he makes a mistake that helps you, remind him about hte mistake, and watch as that ruling becomes permanent. Then use that to your advantage.
angryman 02-12-07, 09:06 PM	So try to "remind" him that improved critical doesn't stack with keen. Whenever he makes a mistake that helps you, remind him about hte mistake, and watch as that ruling becomes permanent. Then use that to your advantage. "Spell Focus doesn't give +2 to your school's DC!" "Spellcasting Prodigy doesn't effectively raise your prime casting stat by 2." "Of course wizards don't get armour proficiency: mecha!" Wee, I wish my DM was that dumb.
frasmage 02-12-07, 09:07 PM	If they get really out of hand and annoying do this: -pull as much legal-by-RAW cheese as possible out of your pocket. And have it only target the rules lawyer's character. For example, have punpun walk in punch his character and walk out. any of endless combos out there would be a great way of telling him to shut up. They should get the message that you know the extent the rules can go to and will stop worrying so much least their character's suffer from more cheapness
ornitholestes 02-12-07, 09:15 PM	I know one GM who warned us ONCE that any attempts to rules-lawyer him would result in an immediate house rule to the opposite. Another trick is to know the rules, as most rules-lawyers I have ever played with tend to know the bits that favour them and forget all the others. You know the sort of thing - an optional rule suddenly becomes compulsory, they recall one half of a rule that says one thing and not the other half that says that there are drawbacks. I've certainly been there - I once had a player swear to me that you could make a "called shot to the head" at a -8 penalty for an instant kill hit (no save or anything). He proceeded to demand that it works and that it would let him kill another player character. (Even though he could never find this "rule" in any of the books) He wasn't too happy when I finally conceded to the whining and brought in the level 1 true strike kobold sorcerer brigade. He then proceeded to tell me this rule only works for player characters. . .