Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PeaceReaper 04-27-08, 11:09 PM	Not sure if this is in the right section but... There seems to be a lot of criticism of 3.5 now that 4E has been announced. So what do you guys think were the worst traits of 3.5? (Note: if some of you have read my other posts on this topic, note the absence of any 4E complaints in my sig. I guess I changed my mind) 1. Overpowered spellcasters 2. Too generic Fighters.
Psionx 04-27-08, 11:10 PM	Not sure if this is in the right section but... There seems to be a lot of criticism of 3.5 now that 4E has been announced. So what do you guys think were the worst traits of 3.5? (Note: if some of you have read my other posts on this topic, note the absence of any 4E complaints in my sig. I guess I changed my mind) 1. Overpowered spellcasters 2. Too generic Fighters. You're right, wrong section, this is 4e Concerns and Criticisms. I'll report this to save you the effort of asking for it to be moved.
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-27-08, 11:57 PM	3. Has been used as an excuse to start yet another valueless 1001 thread, and not even a funny one.
navar100 04-28-08, 01:22 AM	4. It's being abandoned for 4E. :P
zeratulcraft 04-28-08, 01:59 AM	5. I can't grapple the troll :(
sin shai, nagai jedi 04-28-08, 02:07 AM	Not sure if this is in the right section but... There seems to be a lot of criticism of 3.5 now that 4E has been announced. So what do you guys think were the worst traits of 3.5? (Note: if some of you have read my other posts on this topic, note the absence of any 4E complaints in my sig. I guess I changed my mind) 1. Overpowered spellcasters 2. Too generic Fighters. to number 1: compared to what? other classes, sure quite a bit, but compared to other D&D editions? hehehe to number 2: how can the fighter be generic? its the ultimate in doing weird non-magical ****. sure, it may not be the most powerful or effective class, but generic? nah. unless you purposfully make him a longsword and sheild guy in full plate that stands there and takes the damage like a man (regardless of actual gender or race) then sure, its generic, but only because you choose to build it that way.
navar100 04-28-08, 06:47 AM	"Generic" might not be the right word. I think he meant it's a class with no clear-cut modus operandi straight out of the box. The player has to figure out for himself what he wants his fighter to accomplish.
Sunic_Flames 04-28-08, 07:52 AM	Fighter is to PC classes as Commoner is to NPC classes. Extrapolate from that what you will.
navar100 04-28-08, 01:45 PM	Fighter is to PC classes as Commoner is to NPC classes. Extrapolate from that what you will. Let's not turn this into another fighter sucks/no he doesn't thread. Let it go.
Sunic_Flames 04-28-08, 02:36 PM	Let's not turn this into another fighter sucks/no he doesn't thread. Let it go. Actually I was referring to the 'everyone else' bit, aka generic guy meant for everyone that doesn't fit into a more specific role. Though it could easily go either way.
zeratulcraft 04-29-08, 04:50 AM	Fighter is to PC classes as Commoner is to NPC classes. Extrapolate from that what you will. Cept the Commoner has a better skill list than the Fighter.
Sunic_Flames 04-29-08, 08:01 AM	Cept the Commoner has a better skill list than the Fighter. Oh, burn!
Delfedd 04-29-08, 08:13 AM	The main problem with fighters is that with the development of all the feats now, there has grown this strange fighter with only one or two good options. Charging, crit monkeying, or damage soak. Anyway. The idea that the players can theoretically gain any ability that they encounter. And if they themselves can't gain it, they use summoning spells to acquire it instead.
High Octane 04-29-08, 09:15 AM	Wow is this a Fighter sucks thread? Cause if it is he will Sword-chuck your ass! 5. 3.0 Grognards who don't think haste was broken (double spellcasting from a 3rd level spell, yeah thats not broken) 6. Rules Compendium replacing the Players Handbook. 7. Well over a hundred prestige classes, many of which are broken. 8. Illumans.
pres_man 04-29-08, 10:24 AM	It doesn't need replacing and will make 4e tank due to people not changing.
Red_Wizard 04-29-08, 01:07 PM	Cept the Commoner has a better skill list than the Fighter. Cause "Craft: Spoon" Will save him from a two handed sword. :P As for most PrC's being broken comment, wouldn't that technically make them fine? If the majority dictates "overpowered" is the norm, then is it not the stragglers that are weaker than the rules, and thus the problem? Also, something is only Broken in the hands of one intending to do so. You don't accidentally wake up one day with a charcater who can cast wish XP free. You built it broken, to be broken, simple as that. -RW
Sunic_Flames 04-29-08, 01:45 PM	More like 'Listen' and 'Spot' actually make him more useful out of combat than the Fighter, and provides a defense against stabbity death in the night. :P
High Octane 04-29-08, 01:56 PM	Cause "Craft: Spoon" Will save him from a two handed sword. :P As for most PrC's being broken comment, wouldn't that technically make them fine? If the majority dictates "overpowered" is the norm, then is it not the stragglers that are weaker than the rules, and thus the problem? Also, something is only Broken in the hands of one intending to do so. You don't accidentally wake up one day with a charcater who can cast wish XP free. You built it broken, to be broken, simple as that. -RW Well Red Mag.....WIZARD... forgot your class changed sorry. (I kid of course) I didn't say most I said MANY. Plus broken CAN run both ways as an adjective. Broken can also mean useless to anyone involved. I wish they had defined a lot of prestige classes as "For DM use only" since it is either way powerful or a drag unless you have a couple levels on your party.
6163 04-30-08, 11:44 AM	9. Skills: A lot of skills are downright mundane. I don’t want to be level 30 or cripple my character devoting him solely to raising my tumble skill so I can wall jump Mario style. If a wizard can fly at level 3 (level 1 with that one feat on page 181 of Complete Arcane) then I want my rogue to friggin’ wall jump by at least level 6. I shouldn’t have to spend a feat or buy a “skill trick” to uses my skills to do things either. Jump is even worse, you know a skill is under thought and under powered when a first level spell just give +10 to it. Once I'm epic levels I want to leap miles. 10. Desperation for Direction: It’s just 3.5 mentality that you need to specifically be told you’re able to do something before you can. Recently I’ve spent quite a bit of time wondering what skill I have to put ranks in to make a character a good artist. I got frustrated and told the DM that “my character doodles a lot, he’s good at it. He’s not going to make money or anything he just likes to do it.” which was something 3.5 had raised me never to even consider. The worst offender of this mentality are skill tricks. You need to pay extra skills to do stuff with your skills. NO! YOU DO THAT STUFF ALREADY! THAT’S WHY YOU PUT RANKS IN IT! I honestly took the skill trick list, added ten to the prerequisites and said, “Here’s the DC to pull it off.” 11. Spontaneous casters: The sorcerer is a rare phenomena, a spellcaster able to cast spells without preparation. A talent so powerful that the sorcerer wasn’t able to have any class features apart from a familiar. A talent so rare it was only shared with the Bard, Warmage, Warlock, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, All Psionics, Spellthief, Beguiler, Hexblade, Duskblade, and every other class aside from the Wu Jen that was added after the Players handbook. 12. Magic in general: The world is saturated by it, EVERYTHING has magic. It’s not special anymore. Low magic games don’t work, everyone and their grandmother has tried to make one, they just don’t work. 13. Flexibility to Adaptation: There is hardly any. Sure the DM’s guide says that the rules are a very long, intricate list of suggestions, but I know I’m going to tick a lot of people off saying I got rid of almost every class listed in item 11 for my homebrew campaign. It’s pretty hard in general to make a unique homebrew world because of the obligation to include everything that's in the core rulebook. 14. Elemental energies: Fire = Fire. Water = Cold. Earth = Acid. Air = Lighting. Yeah... can we just have Fire, Water, Air and Earth energies? I love elemental magic and trying to get the Elemental Savant prestige class is awkward as hell. Even more awkward is my homebrew world is based on the balance of elements. I don’t want the elegant defenders of the Well of Winds to be shooting loud, flashing bolts of lighting. 15. Longevity: More of an annoyance. Elves spend 100 years getting their first class, a Nezumi (Oriental adventures) spends 5. What the hell are elves up to that whole time and why to they suddenly start learning at the same rate as the Nezumi after the game starts? 16. Monks: I love martial arts, I am a martial artist and I enjoy playing classes where I can imagine the sensations my characters feel (that’s why I hold a sword while I play). Now I would really enjoy playing a martial artist character, but monks... could you suck a little less? Honestly rogues are better even without Book o’ Nine Swords. They don’t even need Improved Unarmed strike, just improved feint. You can’t draw attacks of opportunity when you’re flatfooted and Rogues don’t use weapons, they use “Sneak Attack Transfer Devices” so it doesn’t matter if they’re doing 1d3 nonleathal, it’s the +3d6 you have to worry about. 17. Swashbucklers: Another minor annoyance, I’ve gotten through the heavy stuff, but why do you have d10 hitdice? All light armored fighters have d8 or less, either move them all up or move down yourself. (I houserule the former) This is mostly painful for me after I made a fencer rogue (and then a unarmed rogue as described earlier just to annoy the actual monk) and stumbled across the Swashbuckler with every ability I spent feats to get and more health to boot. Maybe more later. That’s all I could think up in one sitting.
Red_Wizard 04-30-08, 12:00 PM	Well Red Mag.....WIZARD... forgot your class changed sorry. (I kid of course) I didn't say most I said MANY. Plus broken CAN run both ways as an adjective. Broken can also mean useless to anyone involved. I wish they had defined a lot of prestige classes as "For DM use only" since it is either way powerful or a drag unless you have a couple levels on your party. My post was meant in a light hearted way, incase that didn't come across. ;) And yes, they did Nerf the RW quite a bit. It's a shame that some things can only be black and white with the designers. Often a simple "This doesn't stack with that" line would save headaches. That said I don't disagree that some classes have the potential to become powerful, but often it isn't the class that is the problem, it is the combination of other classes, and feats that lead to the issue. And, in that case, it is almost always intentional on the part of the player. All I was saying was that generally speaking, it isn't the system that is broken, it is the people who have played it long enough to try and break it. ;) -RW
Sunic_Flames 04-30-08, 12:22 PM	Swashbucklers are great 3 level dips. Aside from that... And maybe a Daring Outlaw... :P