Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chimaera2000 02-20-07, 01:11 AM	Tome of Battle revolutionized melee combat in many ways with its maneuver system. One of these, however, stood out: IRON HEART SURGE .... Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. .... How wonderfully open-ended! What can you get of with Iron Heart Surge? How about.... 1) Poison? 2) Curses? 3) Disease (any kind of disease.... :shifty: )? 4) Fatigue (NEVER SLEEP AGAIN!!!)? :w00t: 5) Antimagic fields (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=683775)?!? :eek: I think a better question is what can't you get rid of with Iron Heart Surge? What else can you come up with? I'll keep this list going: 6) Blindness (A good standard D & D use. But how about....) 7) Nearsightedness (Boy, wouldn't I love this.... bye bye, glasses!) 8) Heck, any vision problem! (Again, wouldn't I love this...) 9) Deafness (Rock out all night with no consequences! YES!) 10) Hunger (I'd say that "hungry" is a status condition that lasts one or more rounds! :cool: ) 11) Thirsty (Ditto for "thirsty!") 12) Depression (Proving that a good scream can help your mood!) 13) Boredom (Although screaming tends to relieve boredom anyways....) 14) Anger ("If you're happy and you know it do a Surge!")
drunkendrake 02-20-07, 08:01 AM	15) The inability to (enter awesome ability here) 16) The lack of (enter awesome statistic here) using those two, you could remove your inability to see through walls, have every spell-like ability at will, etc, etc, and also remove your lack or infinite ability scores. ever so slightly broken (!) but, ah well. -Drake-
BloodSpill 02-20-07, 09:32 AM	Actually..conditions are listed on pages 300 and 301 of the DMG. They are: Ability Damaged, Ability Dranied, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entagled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-footed, Frightened, Grappling, Helpless, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Pinned, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, Turned, Unconscious. A few of these (such as Dazed, Dead, Dying, Flat-footed, Paralysed, Petrified, Stable, Stunned, Unconscious) are going to be hard to get rid of when you're lacking say..actions. Others, with non-instantaneous causes (Entangled, Grappling?, Helpless, Invisible, and possibly others) are just going to be back in effect right as your manoeuvre ends, and it would be pointless to choose them. So, I'm going to go and just throw this out there, but I don't think you can negate the condition of "not being superpowered" or anything like that.
ravenshrike 02-20-07, 11:04 AM	The all important one, frenzy. IHS, making the Frenzied Berzerker playable again.
robertliguori 02-20-07, 01:37 PM	Actually..conditions are listed on pages 300 and 301 of the DMG. They are: Ability Damaged, Ability Dranied, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entagled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-footed, Frightened, Grappling, Helpless, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Pinned, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, Turned, Unconscious. A few of these (such as Dazed, Dead, Dying, Flat-footed, Paralysed, Petrified, Stable, Stunned, Unconscious) are going to be hard to get rid of when you're lacking say..actions. FTR, there is nothing in some of these (such as Dead) that inherently prevent you from taking actions. By the literal wording of the rules in the DMG (and ToB), if you can boost your HP to 0 without healing effects (say, temporary HP or Con boosting), you can activate Iron Heart Surge, and remove the Dead condition.
TheChilliGod 02-20-07, 01:49 PM	I'll just be using common sense for now, thanks. But what about Domination? Ooh... :D
Tempest Stormwind 02-20-07, 02:00 PM	The all important one, frenzy. IHS, making the Frenzied Berzerker playable again.You need to be able to take that standard action to do an Iron Heart Surge. When in a frenzy, you have to attack everyone. Surging isn't a attacking something that moves. Ditto for Domination, by the way. You won't take actions you aren't ordered to or that run contrary to your orders; Surging is an action that'd no doubt be contrary to the dominator.Actually..conditions are listed on pages 300 and 301 of the DMG. They are: Ability Damaged, Ability Dranied, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entagled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-footed, Frightened, Grappling, Helpless, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Pinned, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, Turned, Unconscious. A few of these (such as Dazed, Dead, Dying, Flat-footed, Paralysed, Petrified, Stable, Stunned, Unconscious) are going to be hard to get rid of when you're lacking say..actions. Others, with non-instantaneous causes (Entangled, Grappling?, Helpless, Invisible, and possibly others) are just going to be back in effect right as your manoeuvre ends, and it would be pointless to choose them. So, I'm going to go and just throw this out there, but I don't think you can negate the condition of "not being superpowered" or anything like that.Agreed. But as for the rest of these, note how it says "effect" in addition to condition. It also says "that effect ENDS" (emphasis mine -- note not "ends for you"). It's woefully undefined -- although I agree, "not being superpowered" isn't a valid thing to negate. You can walk into a cloudkill and have it disappear. This is awesome.
khyron1144 02-20-07, 02:17 PM	Actually..conditions are listed on pages 300 and 301 of the DMG. They are: Ability Damaged, Ability Dranied, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entagled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-footed, Frightened, Grappling, Helpless, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralysed, Petrified, Pinned, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, Turned, Unconscious. 1) Just because a word like condition or effect has a D&D definition doesn't mean it's real-world definition is totally suspended while playing D&D. 2) What is this Iron Heart Surge thing? What must one do to get it? Does it take a feat selection or skill points or anything? 3) For anything other than a spell to cancel the bolded conditions is a bit overpowered in my opinion but that may change if I actually read The Tome of Battle and see this information in its proper context. 4) Find me the rule that says a character that steps off a high thing with nothing but air to support him starts falling. Yes there is a falling damage system, but where do the rules define when and how falling starts? My point is DMs must use at least a little common sense.
Tempest Stormwind 02-20-07, 02:36 PM	1) Just because a word like condition or effect has a D&D definition doesn't mean it's real-world definition is totally suspended while playing D&D.True, but if something like Status says you see every condition looking at the subject, it means every "condition" as defined by the game. Otherwise, why bother with a defined ruleset and just say "You know some stuff about that guy."?2) What is this Iron Heart Surge thing? What must one do to get it? Does it take a feat selection or skill points or anything?Iron Heart maneuver; it's the second-strongest maneuver in the entire book -- likely due to an editing glitch (as referenced by the INCREDULOUS response CustServ gave in the link in the OP). To get it, you need an initiator level of 5 and one other Iron Heart maneuver. Warblades meet this pretty easily (as they're the only class with access to Iron Heart); a multiclass with warblade can do it easily as well. A non-warblade needs 10 other levels and two feats to get this.3) For anything other than a spell to cancel the bolded conditions is a bit overpowered in my opinion but that may change if I actually read The Tome of Battle and see this information in its proper context.It only cancels it for yourself (some of those you wouldn't want to cancel), and as said, it's vague and undefined.4) Find me the rule that says a character that steps off a high thing with nothing but air to support him starts falling. Yes there is a falling damage system, but where do the rules define when and how falling starts? My point is DMs must use at least a little common sense.Agreed with this. However, the better example to cite would be "Dead". A character who's dead is not, as per the rules, prevented from taking actions.
hiryuu 02-20-07, 02:41 PM	Since the wording says "1 or more rounds," I took this to have that intent of "duration measured in rounds," so, things like hold person, a ghoul's paralysis, a fear effect that lasts so many rounds, and so on...... which is how our group's been using it, and it's still plenty powerful.
drunkendrake 02-22-07, 02:59 PM	I'd love to try and remove my own mortality. :) Others are visibility, corporeality, cowardliness, existence (!) and sanity, although some would be kind of pointless. -Drake-
aelryinth 02-22-07, 05:22 PM	Infatuation. Love them and leave them was never so easy. ===Aelryinth
ArcTan 02-22-07, 05:51 PM	You can walk into a cloudkill and have it disappear. This is awesome. No. A cloudkill is an effect affecting an area, not affecting you. Take a look at the spell description. What is it that you cast the spell on? Do you target a person, or do you target an area? That's right, an area. Therefore it's not affecting you. You're standing in it, and suffering from it, but that's not the same thing, any more than you can destroy difficult terrain because you're standing on it and it's "affecting" you, or create air in an airless void because the airlessness is "affecting" you. (Yes, this is one area in which I think CustServe is pretty clearly talking out of their ass, since it contradicts other rulings that are pretty clear about what it means to be "affected" by an "effect".) "Effect", just like "condition", has a specific meaning in D&D. 1) Just because a word like condition or effect has a D&D definition doesn't mean it's real-world definition is totally suspended while playing D&D. No. That's *exactly* what it means for something to have a D&D definition. Almost every time someone comes up with a ridiculously incorrect and overpowered interpretation of something, it's because they ignored this simple rule -- when a D&D rule uses a word, we always take the most narrow possible interpretation of it, in order to prevent nonsense like iron heart surge removing the "condition" of not being 20th level. The only "conditions" in D&D are things listed in the condition summary. The only "effects" in D&D are things listed in the "effect" entry of a spell or special ability. Just as the only "attacks" in D&D are things that take a normal attack roll against AC, hence you can't use wall of blades to deflect disintegrate, or dominate person, or an Intimidate check.
ArcTan 02-22-07, 05:56 PM	Since the wording says "1 or more rounds," I took this to have that intent of "duration measured in rounds," so, things like hold person, a ghoul's paralysis, a fear effect that lasts so many rounds, and so on...... which is how our group's been using it, and it's still plenty powerful. It's pretty clear that "measured in rounds" is what they meant by this (so things like poison, disease, ability damage, and so forth are right out), because otherwise it's a completely superfluous clause (there *isn't* a condition that lasts less than one round, by definition).
Olskool 02-22-07, 06:18 PM	Way to pee in everybody's cornflakes with common sense Arctan.
Tempest Stormwind 02-22-07, 06:31 PM	If I walk into a spellcaster's antimagic field or cloudkill, that spell is affecting me. Iron Heart Surge says I can use that maneuver to end any spell (etc) that is affecting me. The exact phrase is "that effect ends". This was taken from a CustServ clarification on the maneuver. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9855185&postcount=152) Seems pretty specific. You may be correct regarding "effect" -- but for spells, it's pretty damn clear.
Olskool 02-22-07, 06:34 PM	If I walk into a spellcaster's antimagic field or cloudkill, that spell is affecting me. Iron Heart Surge says I can use that maneuver to end any spell (etc) that is affecting me. The exact phrase is "that effect ends". This was taken from a CustServ clarification on the maneuver. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9855185&postcount=152) Seems pretty specific. C'mon man. No sane DM's gonna allow that.