10th level: what pluses are normal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

10th level: what pluses are normal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Willie the Duck
03-21-04, 02:03 AM I just started in a campaign that is at 10th level. I was worried that my natural dislike of losing was going to make me too much of a munchkin. I chose a munchy build, a archer cleric (the campaign is 3.0), but addended it by having the character dink around with stuff like goggles of nightvision and folding boats instead of maxed out uber weapons and armor. When I got there, I realized that I had the lowest AC except the wizard!

My question to you all is: by 10th level, in a non-monty haul campaign, what is a fairly common AC, saves and full attack for a 1)frontline fighter, 2) martial monk, 3) sorcerer or wizard.
Sammael_the_Chosen
03-21-04, 02:21 AM I can tell you how the players are faring in my campaign... the frontline (sword and board) fighter has an AC around 27 (+9 from full plate, another +6 from tower shield, +1 Dex, +1 misc). The monk/sorcerer has an AC of 20, boostable to 25 with spells and items. Wizards have an AC between 18 and 20, boostable by another five or six points or so.

An optimized 10th level character can easily have an AC in the mid 30s, though.
Drindin
03-21-04, 02:35 AM At tenth level, the biggest magical enhancement bonus on any item should be +3. Why? Because a monster of CR 10, if it has a damage reduction, this reduction is always countered by a +3 weapon, making it a mild challenge for an average 10th level party.
Sammael_the_Chosen
03-21-04, 03:23 AM Originally posted by Drindin
At tenth level, the biggest magical enhancement bonus on any item should be +3. Why? Because a monster of CR 10, if it has a damage reduction, this reduction is always countered by a +3 weapon, making it a mild challenge for an average 10th level party.
Needless to say, this argument no longer applies in 3.5, where weapon plusses no longer count against DR.

I tend to start giving out +3 weapons and armor around 9th level, +4 around 12th, and +5 around 15th. But there is absolutely nothing in the core rules that stops a character from starting with a +5 weapon at a lower level, provided he can afford it and the DM hasn't "rule zeroed" buying magic equipment.
Dalaeck
03-22-04, 11:18 AM For a warrior typical pluses are in the +20 range to hit and AC should be above 30.

Monks can be very variable - they can stress dex and use finesse for their fists giving them near-to-fighter attack bonuses and AC. Otherwise they will be markedly lower.

Wizards are even more variable - if the guy is paranoid of being hit he can AC on the order of 50 readily with spells. However typically it's lower than the fighter's AC. Their attack bonuses are not even double digits typically.
Disturbed1
03-22-04, 11:45 AM Originally posted by Dalaeck
For a warrior typical pluses are in the +20 range to hit and AC should be above 30.

i would like to know how you get +20 to hit with a fighter at lvl 10. plz explain, cause honestly, i bet yuou cant build one.

:D

dis1
Prince Kelwyn
03-22-04, 11:53 AM Easy: +10 BAB
20 Str Half-orc +5
Greater Weapon Focus +2
+3 Weapon
Total: +20
Dalaeck
03-22-04, 01:32 PM Or a simple 3rd edition archer:

15 starting dex + 1 level gain = +3 dex modifier

10 bab + 3 dex + 1 weapon focus + 2 bracers of archery (5000 GP)
+2 arrow (8000 GP for 50 of them) +2 bow (8000 GP) = +20 to hit.

You can factor in all sorts of things like race, point blank shot, size bonuses etc... you're going to be near the +20 to hit range. It's a rough number but I certainly stand by it.

:devil:
Ringmereth
03-22-04, 11:01 PM I'd say the normal fighter to-hit bonus should be closer to 16 or 17 than 20, and the AC should be around 25.

Sure, you CAN make a pure melee fighter with +20, or even higher, to hit:

10 BAB+6 Strength (start at 18, add 2 racial bonus, add 2 ability increases=22 STR)+2 Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus+4 from +4 weapon=22 to hit.

But a character like that is gonna be good for hitting stuff at close range, and little else. He probably will have a bad AC, bad ranged attacks, and not much in the way of cool equipment.
Lord Gwydion
03-23-04, 12:00 AM I'm currently playing a L10 barbarian (feats spent on Whirlwind chain), who just got his Str. magically augmented up to 18 in the last adventure. With his heavy flail +3, that gives him a +17 to hit normally, +19 when raging.

His AC is 21, 19 when raging. (in case you were wondering)
Earl Power
03-23-04, 10:13 AM my feyri ranger rogue has ac 23/24 with haste. damage reduction 10/+1, 4 attacks per round (13/8/12/7) or with haste 5 (14/14/9/13/8).

hes the hardest character in our party though :/
Kendor
03-23-04, 03:32 PM Nearly every fighter (warriors) example here has 18 or more in strength. Let me say that if you try to find the average for a 10th level PC you should not use 18 as strength.

Level 10 fighter : +10 BAB, +3 Strength or Dex, +1 weapon focus, +2 magic weapon

It gives me something like +16. Brutes should be above and weaker-wiser fighter may be a little under. Note that the level 10 fighter NPC in the DMG has +14 and PC should be above that, but not too much, so +16 or +17 seems a good estimation of the average PC.

Do the same thing with AC and the other classes and you'll have answered your question.
mrpink213
03-23-04, 07:28 PM 1) 27-30
2) 22-27
3)20-22 (then spells added afterwards)

thats how i think it should be, clerics should probly be around the fighters ac, assuming you're wearing heavy armor/big shields, then spells that can boost it. Rogues should have the highest
Edymnion
03-23-04, 08:11 PM I don't see the problem.
You're a cleric, and you're an archer. You shouldn't be on the front lines, you hypothetically should never even have a monster close enough to you that your AC would even matter.

Although a good suit of mithril full plate would be handy.
taltamir
03-23-04, 11:30 PM Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen
I can tell you how the players are faring in my campaign... the frontline (sword and board) fighter has an AC around 27 (+9 from full plate, another +6 from tower shield, +1 Dex, +1 misc). The monk/sorcerer has an AC of 20, boostable to 25 with spells and items. Wizards have an AC between 18 and 20, boostable by another five or six points or so.

An optimized 10th level character can easily have an AC in the mid 30s, though.

Are you aware those are epic items and should cost an arm and a leg? i beleive epic items cost 10 times more... i dont think you can just equip a NEW lvl 10 char with that.. also all your characters seem to have very high stats, was it a 50 point buy system or what?
Dexion
03-23-04, 11:43 PM Taltamir, I think he means +1 Platemail (Total AC 9) and a +2 Tower Shield (Total AC 6)... Which are both totaly reasonable for a 10th level charicture.
taltamir
03-24-04, 12:09 AM mmm, right.. but how he got a wizard with an ac of 20 is beyond me.. also why group monks and wizards together for AC purposes.. monks have the single highest ac in the game... they can dodge like crazy, they add their wizdom modifier to their AC, and while they cant wear magical armour, they can wear magical items like bracers of armour or ring of protection to provide similar boosts, at a cheaper cost too, i am pretty sure a +1 magic mail is more expansive then a +1 ring... and the monks natural AC provides for an equivalent for the mail....
Disturbed1
03-24-04, 10:30 AM Originally posted by Prince Kelwyn
Easy: +10 BAB
20 Str Half-orc +5
Greater Weapon Focus +2
+3 Weapon
Total: +20

ok, the bab and the greater weap focus work

but you are assuming that the player is a half orc, well if hes not then that screws your plan.

along with the fact that 3.5 doesnt use generic +2 mgic items anymore does it? at least for overcoming dmg reduction, nothing has like 10/+2 that ive seen anyway.
they all got like 10/good now

dis1
taltamir
03-24-04, 12:59 PM which is very stupid, the whole point of it was that a +1 is a magic enchanted weapon, and that any higher + is a STRONGLY enchanted item.. suddenly saying.. oop that creature is immune to magic that is in weapons, oh he still takes damage from magic missle, but not from a blade, blade has to be GOOD to hurt it, or SILVER AND MAGIC to hurt them... its all very stupid and very contrived, its meant to counter the games being too easy in settings when the DM just showers his party with WAY more magic items then they should find...

Its how creation spells forbid the character from creating money, or from creating items that they could sell for alot of money.. because thats, gasp, unfair.. well ofcourse it is, thats why its magic.. they should instead say that if a character uses magic to create money a portal opens and a crack team of magicians and elite soldiers apprehend them for illigally forging money using magic (they have scyers looking for things like that), as for creating stuff for sale, you can still only cast a spell so many times a day, a spell is physically draining, and even though you can create it more often and more easily then someone crafting it by hand, so what, thats the whole point, and besides you arent gonna make as good a quality of it unless you have alot of experience working with the item... besides i dont see a druit forcing trees to fashion chairs for him to sell, as long as you are playing in character you are rather limited on practical uses of that, and a wizard who spends all his days using magic to make pots and pens is 1. gonna end up rather poor since the few gold he can make from selling them isnt gonna be much in covering the expanses of his magical LEARNING (he needs scrools, ink, liberary acess, spellbooks, spell components, and whatnot) 2. killing anything will net more in loot.. even goblins carry that much in loot money 3. you wount have an adventure.. my wizard casts create pots and pens every day, three times, then he sells it, buys food, pays rent once a month, never levels up because he cant afford to do magic research, and dies of old age.. ok next character!
TinManFan
03-26-04, 01:09 PM An easy way to figure it out is look at the crafting rules. Take the maximum plus of an item that level could make and take it -1.

As for what stuff they should have, +3 nothing else weapons (MAXIMUM, +2 is a bit more reasonable) or +0, +1 weapons with lots of useless abilities on them.

Also, if you have a crafter in the party, say that they have to pay him to make all their stuff. There's just so much XP a crafter char is going to give up. Make them seek soem recompense for it. Just cause the fighter in the party has <Out of game> thumbed thru the DMG a few times doesn't mean his fighter knows how the crafting rules work. "Uh, yeah, that plus 1 longsword cost me 10,ooo gp to make. You're lucky to have a friend like me to do this stuff you know..."

Also, for fun, when placing items in dungeons, drop hints that a powerful fighter/paladin was last seen here, and then drop the ultimate ability in the most useless weapon. The +5 Holy Avenger Sewing Needle. "FEEL MY WRATH!!! I SHALL UNLEASH THE HOLY.... Sewing.... Needle...." Make sure the villian laughs when he's faced with that. (1 dmg + 5 + Weapon Spec feats + Str mods)
taltamir
03-26-04, 01:27 PM actually thats a pretty good weapon, the +5 means +5 for both damage and attack, so its a +5 attack bonus, the item does a base damage of 6HP, exactly (when an average sword does 1d6 or was it 1d8), it completely ignores almost all damage reductions, its prolly got some other benefits, plus its absolutely hillarious, and will make an awesome offhand weapon since a needly is definatly a light weapon
TinManFan
03-26-04, 01:42 PM It would ignote dmg red/Magic or /good. That's it. Unless it's a silvered/cold iron weapon.

Plus I think it's weight is in the ammo department since it's so small, but not useful as a ranged weapon. Plus it's kooky. Always a good thing. Imagine deuling a fellow pallidin at a tourney.
taltamir
03-26-04, 04:11 PM well, i forgot other people werent playing by that houserule...

We play where magic partially bypasses certain reductions, cause having a vampire not feel a +5 sword just cause it isnt silver and magic seems silly (a silver +1 sword completely ignores it, supposedly it isnt supposed to feel a silver only sword, although thats unclear)
there is alot of discussion about damage reduction and some of the changes that were made in 3.5, the thing is the rules arent too clear on that and some others
So we base these "house rules" on threads dealing with the subject in the WoTC forum.
You should check them, interesting ideas.

If you take vampires for example, it has damage reduction of 10/magic and silver

Where the format sais damage reduced/volnerability that bypasses the damage reduction

Now go figure if it means either magic or silver completley bypasses it, or if neither does, you need a magic silver weapon, or is it that each overcomes half of it?
TinManFan
03-26-04, 04:40 PM i like the idea. Personally I didn't like the fact that you need this and that exotic material that requires a great quest!... or a +1. I thought that needing a +1 (What, a 5th level builder can make one?) kind of took the bite out of what are usually very challenging opponants. I mean, vamps aren't tough cause of the hit dice, it's cause it takes a concerted effor to off them. Same with werewolves. Plus it's fun to give a beastie some wierd Damage Reduction just to watch your players go ape s**t.

Cold Holy Silvered Epic/30 usually get's 'em. Of course one fireball and that orc's toast.
Willie the Duck
03-26-04, 06:56 PM Taltamir, a vampire isn't immune to a sword just because it isn't silver, you just have to hit it hard. The reason they changed the system so you don't rely on the weapon plus is so people might actually take abilities like flaming or keen instead of going for the highest plus as quickly as possible.
taltamir
03-28-04, 02:32 AM or you can do both, flaming keen acidic sword of +5

Sounds good to me XD
Willie the Duck
03-28-04, 06:34 PM Originally posted by taltamir
or you can do both, flaming keen acidic sword of +5

Sounds good to me XD

but not at a given level/resource limit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Willie the Duck 03-21-04, 02:03 AM	I just started in a campaign that is at 10th level. I was worried that my natural dislike of losing was going to make me too much of a munchkin. I chose a munchy build, a archer cleric (the campaign is 3.0), but addended it by having the character dink around with stuff like goggles of nightvision and folding boats instead of maxed out uber weapons and armor. When I got there, I realized that I had the lowest AC except the wizard! My question to you all is: by 10th level, in a non-monty haul campaign, what is a fairly common AC, saves and full attack for a 1)frontline fighter, 2) martial monk, 3) sorcerer or wizard.
Sammael_the_Chosen 03-21-04, 02:21 AM	I can tell you how the players are faring in my campaign... the frontline (sword and board) fighter has an AC around 27 (+9 from full plate, another +6 from tower shield, +1 Dex, +1 misc). The monk/sorcerer has an AC of 20, boostable to 25 with spells and items. Wizards have an AC between 18 and 20, boostable by another five or six points or so. An optimized 10th level character can easily have an AC in the mid 30s, though.
Drindin 03-21-04, 02:35 AM	At tenth level, the biggest magical enhancement bonus on any item should be +3. Why? Because a monster of CR 10, if it has a damage reduction, this reduction is always countered by a +3 weapon, making it a mild challenge for an average 10th level party.
Sammael_the_Chosen 03-21-04, 03:23 AM	Originally posted by Drindin At tenth level, the biggest magical enhancement bonus on any item should be +3. Why? Because a monster of CR 10, if it has a damage reduction, this reduction is always countered by a +3 weapon, making it a mild challenge for an average 10th level party. Needless to say, this argument no longer applies in 3.5, where weapon plusses no longer count against DR. I tend to start giving out +3 weapons and armor around 9th level, +4 around 12th, and +5 around 15th. But there is absolutely nothing in the core rules that stops a character from starting with a +5 weapon at a lower level, provided he can afford it and the DM hasn't "rule zeroed" buying magic equipment.
Dalaeck 03-22-04, 11:18 AM	For a warrior typical pluses are in the +20 range to hit and AC should be above 30. Monks can be very variable - they can stress dex and use finesse for their fists giving them near-to-fighter attack bonuses and AC. Otherwise they will be markedly lower. Wizards are even more variable - if the guy is paranoid of being hit he can AC on the order of 50 readily with spells. However typically it's lower than the fighter's AC. Their attack bonuses are not even double digits typically.
Disturbed1 03-22-04, 11:45 AM	Originally posted by Dalaeck For a warrior typical pluses are in the +20 range to hit and AC should be above 30. i would like to know how you get +20 to hit with a fighter at lvl 10. plz explain, cause honestly, i bet yuou cant build one. :D dis1
Prince Kelwyn 03-22-04, 11:53 AM	Easy: +10 BAB 20 Str Half-orc +5 Greater Weapon Focus +2 +3 Weapon Total: +20
Dalaeck 03-22-04, 01:32 PM	Or a simple 3rd edition archer: 15 starting dex + 1 level gain = +3 dex modifier 10 bab + 3 dex + 1 weapon focus + 2 bracers of archery (5000 GP) +2 arrow (8000 GP for 50 of them) +2 bow (8000 GP) = +20 to hit. You can factor in all sorts of things like race, point blank shot, size bonuses etc... you're going to be near the +20 to hit range. It's a rough number but I certainly stand by it. :devil:
Ringmereth 03-22-04, 11:01 PM	I'd say the normal fighter to-hit bonus should be closer to 16 or 17 than 20, and the AC should be around 25. Sure, you CAN make a pure melee fighter with +20, or even higher, to hit: 10 BAB+6 Strength (start at 18, add 2 racial bonus, add 2 ability increases=22 STR)+2 Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus+4 from +4 weapon=22 to hit. But a character like that is gonna be good for hitting stuff at close range, and little else. He probably will have a bad AC, bad ranged attacks, and not much in the way of cool equipment.
Lord Gwydion 03-23-04, 12:00 AM	I'm currently playing a L10 barbarian (feats spent on Whirlwind chain), who just got his Str. magically augmented up to 18 in the last adventure. With his heavy flail +3, that gives him a +17 to hit normally, +19 when raging. His AC is 21, 19 when raging. (in case you were wondering)
Earl Power 03-23-04, 10:13 AM	my feyri ranger rogue has ac 23/24 with haste. damage reduction 10/+1, 4 attacks per round (13/8/12/7) or with haste 5 (14/14/9/13/8). hes the hardest character in our party though :/
Kendor 03-23-04, 03:32 PM	Nearly every fighter (warriors) example here has 18 or more in strength. Let me say that if you try to find the average for a 10th level PC you should not use 18 as strength. Level 10 fighter : +10 BAB, +3 Strength or Dex, +1 weapon focus, +2 magic weapon It gives me something like +16. Brutes should be above and weaker-wiser fighter may be a little under. Note that the level 10 fighter NPC in the DMG has +14 and PC should be above that, but not too much, so +16 or +17 seems a good estimation of the average PC. Do the same thing with AC and the other classes and you'll have answered your question.
mrpink213 03-23-04, 07:28 PM	1) 27-30 2) 22-27 3)20-22 (then spells added afterwards) thats how i think it should be, clerics should probly be around the fighters ac, assuming you're wearing heavy armor/big shields, then spells that can boost it. Rogues should have the highest
Edymnion 03-23-04, 08:11 PM	I don't see the problem. You're a cleric, and you're an archer. You shouldn't be on the front lines, you hypothetically should never even have a monster close enough to you that your AC would even matter. Although a good suit of mithril full plate would be handy.
taltamir 03-23-04, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by Sammael_the_Chosen I can tell you how the players are faring in my campaign... the frontline (sword and board) fighter has an AC around 27 (+9 from full plate, another +6 from tower shield, +1 Dex, +1 misc). The monk/sorcerer has an AC of 20, boostable to 25 with spells and items. Wizards have an AC between 18 and 20, boostable by another five or six points or so. An optimized 10th level character can easily have an AC in the mid 30s, though. Are you aware those are epic items and should cost an arm and a leg? i beleive epic items cost 10 times more... i dont think you can just equip a NEW lvl 10 char with that.. also all your characters seem to have very high stats, was it a 50 point buy system or what?
Dexion 03-23-04, 11:43 PM	Taltamir, I think he means +1 Platemail (Total AC 9) and a +2 Tower Shield (Total AC 6)... Which are both totaly reasonable for a 10th level charicture.
taltamir 03-24-04, 12:09 AM	mmm, right.. but how he got a wizard with an ac of 20 is beyond me.. also why group monks and wizards together for AC purposes.. monks have the single highest ac in the game... they can dodge like crazy, they add their wizdom modifier to their AC, and while they cant wear magical armour, they can wear magical items like bracers of armour or ring of protection to provide similar boosts, at a cheaper cost too, i am pretty sure a +1 magic mail is more expansive then a +1 ring... and the monks natural AC provides for an equivalent for the mail....
Disturbed1 03-24-04, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by Prince Kelwyn Easy: +10 BAB 20 Str Half-orc +5 Greater Weapon Focus +2 +3 Weapon Total: +20 ok, the bab and the greater weap focus work but you are assuming that the player is a half orc, well if hes not then that screws your plan. along with the fact that 3.5 doesnt use generic +2 mgic items anymore does it? at least for overcoming dmg reduction, nothing has like 10/+2 that ive seen anyway. they all got like 10/good now dis1
taltamir 03-24-04, 12:59 PM	which is very stupid, the whole point of it was that a +1 is a magic enchanted weapon, and that any higher + is a STRONGLY enchanted item.. suddenly saying.. oop that creature is immune to magic that is in weapons, oh he still takes damage from magic missle, but not from a blade, blade has to be GOOD to hurt it, or SILVER AND MAGIC to hurt them... its all very stupid and very contrived, its meant to counter the games being too easy in settings when the DM just showers his party with WAY more magic items then they should find... Its how creation spells forbid the character from creating money, or from creating items that they could sell for alot of money.. because thats, gasp, unfair.. well ofcourse it is, thats why its magic.. they should instead say that if a character uses magic to create money a portal opens and a crack team of magicians and elite soldiers apprehend them for illigally forging money using magic (they have scyers looking for things like that), as for creating stuff for sale, you can still only cast a spell so many times a day, a spell is physically draining, and even though you can create it more often and more easily then someone crafting it by hand, so what, thats the whole point, and besides you arent gonna make as good a quality of it unless you have alot of experience working with the item... besides i dont see a druit forcing trees to fashion chairs for him to sell, as long as you are playing in character you are rather limited on practical uses of that, and a wizard who spends all his days using magic to make pots and pens is 1. gonna end up rather poor since the few gold he can make from selling them isnt gonna be much in covering the expanses of his magical LEARNING (he needs scrools, ink, liberary acess, spellbooks, spell components, and whatnot) 2. killing anything will net more in loot.. even goblins carry that much in loot money 3. you wount have an adventure.. my wizard casts create pots and pens every day, three times, then he sells it, buys food, pays rent once a month, never levels up because he cant afford to do magic research, and dies of old age.. ok next character!
TinManFan 03-26-04, 01:09 PM	An easy way to figure it out is look at the crafting rules. Take the maximum plus of an item that level could make and take it -1. As for what stuff they should have, +3 nothing else weapons (MAXIMUM, +2 is a bit more reasonable) or +0, +1 weapons with lots of useless abilities on them. Also, if you have a crafter in the party, say that they have to pay him to make all their stuff. There's just so much XP a crafter char is going to give up. Make them seek soem recompense for it. Just cause the fighter in the party has <Out of game> thumbed thru the DMG a few times doesn't mean his fighter knows how the crafting rules work. "Uh, yeah, that plus 1 longsword cost me 10,ooo gp to make. You're lucky to have a friend like me to do this stuff you know..." Also, for fun, when placing items in dungeons, drop hints that a powerful fighter/paladin was last seen here, and then drop the ultimate ability in the most useless weapon. The +5 Holy Avenger Sewing Needle. "FEEL MY WRATH!!! I SHALL UNLEASH THE HOLY.... Sewing.... Needle...." Make sure the villian laughs when he's faced with that. (1 dmg + 5 + Weapon Spec feats + Str mods)
taltamir 03-26-04, 01:27 PM	actually thats a pretty good weapon, the +5 means +5 for both damage and attack, so its a +5 attack bonus, the item does a base damage of 6HP, exactly (when an average sword does 1d6 or was it 1d8), it completely ignores almost all damage reductions, its prolly got some other benefits, plus its absolutely hillarious, and will make an awesome offhand weapon since a needly is definatly a light weapon
TinManFan 03-26-04, 01:42 PM	It would ignote dmg red/Magic or /good. That's it. Unless it's a silvered/cold iron weapon. Plus I think it's weight is in the ammo department since it's so small, but not useful as a ranged weapon. Plus it's kooky. Always a good thing. Imagine deuling a fellow pallidin at a tourney.
taltamir 03-26-04, 04:11 PM	well, i forgot other people werent playing by that houserule... We play where magic partially bypasses certain reductions, cause having a vampire not feel a +5 sword just cause it isnt silver and magic seems silly (a silver +1 sword completely ignores it, supposedly it isnt supposed to feel a silver only sword, although thats unclear) there is alot of discussion about damage reduction and some of the changes that were made in 3.5, the thing is the rules arent too clear on that and some others So we base these "house rules" on threads dealing with the subject in the WoTC forum. You should check them, interesting ideas. If you take vampires for example, it has damage reduction of 10/magic and silver Where the format sais damage reduced/volnerability that bypasses the damage reduction Now go figure if it means either magic or silver completley bypasses it, or if neither does, you need a magic silver weapon, or is it that each overcomes half of it?
TinManFan 03-26-04, 04:40 PM	i like the idea. Personally I didn't like the fact that you need this and that exotic material that requires a great quest!... or a +1. I thought that needing a +1 (What, a 5th level builder can make one?) kind of took the bite out of what are usually very challenging opponants. I mean, vamps aren't tough cause of the hit dice, it's cause it takes a concerted effor to off them. Same with werewolves. Plus it's fun to give a beastie some wierd Damage Reduction just to watch your players go ape s**t. Cold Holy Silvered Epic/30 usually get's 'em. Of course one fireball and that orc's toast.
Willie the Duck 03-26-04, 06:56 PM	Taltamir, a vampire isn't immune to a sword just because it isn't silver, you just have to hit it hard. The reason they changed the system so you don't rely on the weapon plus is so people might actually take abilities like flaming or keen instead of going for the highest plus as quickly as possible.
taltamir 03-28-04, 02:32 AM	or you can do both, flaming keen acidic sword of +5 Sounds good to me XD
Willie the Duck 03-28-04, 06:34 PM	Originally posted by taltamir or you can do both, flaming keen acidic sword of +5 Sounds good to me XD but not at a given level/resource limit.