Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WotC_Bart 11-18-05, 12:37 PM	Hi folks, This week, we've collected your special abilities and put them to a vote (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051118b)! Many thanks!
Khael 11-18-05, 06:36 PM	Since this is a sticky thread, does that mean we're allowed to plug the special ability(ties) of our choice here? If so i say vote for the aura of vengeance(course', i'm sort of bias here). Think about it: the sheer damage a AMM can do with it and a fireball spell! Also it is a tried and tested (mostly... well-almost) ability, modified from the humble jovoc(well, humble compared to our AMM-only CR5...) from the MMII. Alternatively i vote for the bodywalk or spell hijack:How vicious is that? All that work to get close and it runs though one of its bodyguard or blows you up with your own spell!?
PatheticN00b 11-19-05, 02:11 AM	Darn it they didn't pick my abbility. Oh well, I guess I can still use it myself.
TokTok 11-19-05, 03:57 AM	Haruspex gets bonus points from me. Doom Coffin would look awesome on anything that looks a bit humanoid.
Araes 11-19-05, 10:11 AM	*edit* Corrected on approach of concept vs implementation, take these as changes I would like to see in the revision round. ;) Alright, for my first pick I voted for blasphemous geometry, as it scales with mob size and could be rather interesting for large group fights. It also has an obviously exploitable weakness, which a number of the other abilities left out of their descriptions. I would actually prefer it if the ability scaled with opponents and friends, so that its minions could actually soak hits for it as well. Would make more sense for a mastermind, effectively carrying his own bodyguards with him whether they want it or not. As it stands, the ability would actually be most effective on a lone assassin in the middle of a crowded mob. At 10+, there would be almost no way to hurt it. Second, voted for bodywalk since it was fairly well defined and could be rather interesting for a mob fighting mastermind. If you managed to capture him alone it would be rather useless, which is how it should be. (However, do opponents get a save against it?, and does it cause damage like the blood magus special ability?) Now, on to criticism of the other ones and why I didn't vote for them. Apologies to Khael, but Aura of Vengeance either needs clarification, or has some issues. As its written, an AMM with lots of DR would be really powerful with this ability. Suffers is pretty vague, and DR says it ignores the first X points of damage. Therefore, with something like DR/15, it could just deal 15 points to itself and hurt everyone around it for 15, no immunity, DR, only a Fort save. Even without this, a large HP AMM would be the utter and complete death of a party. Say its something immune to death from massive damage, and does two shots of 50 HP a piece to itself in the middle of them. Anyone with a low Fort would crumple, and even the fighters would be hurting. If a mean DM gave it teleport or something similar, it could run away, quick heal, and be back on them doing it again, and again, and again. Chromantic Aura just needs to be more clear. How much (next category, X years?), what save, ect... Doom Coffin is just silly. Unless its something like a corpse collector this would just be utterly weird, Plus, how on earth does it gain a swallow whole with something on its back. Do you have to be behind it, does it fight backwards, does it have to grapple you and throw you in? And imagine the jokes that your group would throw down when you describe a villain wandering in carrying a coffin on its back... Spell Hijack is super strong, especially with a high Cha AMM. At the very least this should scale with spell level as its silly for level 9 spells to be subsumed just as easily as level 1 spells, and runs counter to things like SR. Strings of the Marionette is really cool, but it really feels like it could be abused. I can't think of a good specific example right now, but I'm sure that with a mix of personal range spells and feats this could become wrong very quickly. *edit* Actually, this could be particularly bad if you had a group of people who all had this ability and the term "minion" wasn't clearly defined. Wow, actually, you could make an evil "character" (or set) with this. Imagine two nasty fighters and a mage with their "minion" who has high DR, magic immune/resistant, and massive damage. Two sets of full attack actions at full BAB (w/ minion damage) and repitoire of spells, all coming at you from a single source, and then next guy you fight would have it too, and the next. Ugg. Uninvited Hive Mind is just unclear. What does this link do? The description never says. Nothing, you just have a link? If it creates a Hive Mind like BoVD, but with the limitation on creatures = to Cha bonus, then it is utterly useless, as almost no one will ever have a Cha bonus big enough to gain even the first level of effects (50 creature min, 20 creatures for each step). And if it creates the BoVD Hive Mind as normal, then this ability is broken, just like Hive Mind is. Its already been shown that Hive Mind is one of the single most powerful abilities in the game by the CO board.
Zevox 11-19-05, 12:12 PM	I voted for Chromatic Aura (aging nearby foes at will is just too cool a trait for a new creature to pass up :cool:; though I agree that it needs clarifying, thats what the yet-to-occur developement and editing is for) and Aura of Peace (as it seemed to go well with my primary choice, Chromatic Aura). Bodywalk was a close third, and would have been my choice if a third slot was given. Zevox
rbrt_Spade 11-19-05, 12:20 PM	wild magic for me :cheer:
Irian 11-19-05, 01:31 PM	Now, on to criticism of the other ones and why I didn't vote for them.Hmmm... seems to me you're not critisizing the concepts but implementation/mechanic. Let me just quote from the article: This week, we’re asking you to vote on the special abilities you most approve of in concept. That’s important to reiterate (and why it merits italics! [or because of the quotation: bold text ;) -- Irian]). Any ability that’s chosen will still undergo development and editing, so please don’t vote strictly on the mechanics of these abilities as they’re currently presented -- only on their concept.
Khael 11-19-05, 01:55 PM	[QUOTE=Araes] Apologies to Khael, but Aura of Vengeance either needs clarification, or has some issues. As its written, an AMM with lots of DR would be really powerful with this ability. Suffers is pretty vague, and DR says it ignores the first X points of damage. Therefore, with something like DR/15, it could just deal 15 points to itself and hurt everyone around it for 15, no immunity, DR, only a Fort save. Even without this, a large HP AMM would be the utter and complete death of a party. Say its something immune to death from massive damage, and does two shots of 50 HP a piece to itself in the middle of them. Anyone with a low Fort would crumple, and even the fighters would be hurting. If a mean DM gave it teleport or something similar, it could run away, quick heal, and be back on them doing it again, and again, and again. Wrong. For the aura to kick in, the AMM MUST suffer damage. The defination for DR (and this is the website version) states DR causes the damage to be ignored, so no damage suffered, its counted as not happening, so no aura effect. Anyway to my mind this just means PC have to use their imagination's and instead of your standard close-up scrap(well, the type of fight people think of) they try tactics like relying on bows and magic...well maybe screw the imagination bit thinking about that. Secondly if you want to stop the AMM with this, its simple, very simple,(alright not that easy but still...) but i'm not going to say yet for suspense. Chromantic Aura just needs to be more clear. How much (next category, X years?), what save, ect... The years don't matter here. They get moved up to the next age category, working out years for this makes it boring and needlessly complicated.
Araes 11-19-05, 04:44 PM	Ah, thanks Irian. You're right, rereading it I am criticizing more based on implementation/mechanic, and may have been a bit harsh. Fair enough. Thankfully, still stand by my picks for abilities though. Little too much crow being eaten otherwise. From a mob fighting standpoint, I would say that bodywalk and geometry offer two of the best possibilities that build upon the idea of a mastermind controlling many sub-henchmen/minions. Strings of the Marionette would be a strong third with some rewrite, as it offers an interesting avenue for PCs not knowing who the villain is. Of the ones I mentioned, obvously clarification comments can be ignored (Chromantic Aura and Uninvited Hive Mind). Don't really feel that CA fits the concept of a mastermind villain. Its a scary ability for a character to have happen to them, particularly if they don't know whether its permanent or not, but just doesn't seem to have a mastermind as its best target. Aura of Vengence in its current form also doesn't seem quite AMM. However, with a little tweak, it could function somewhat like a Diablo II Thorns ability, where any mastermind may designate a certain number of minions up to some limit, and as long as he's in range, all of them return some percentage (half would be easy) of damage dealt to them. Feels like that would have a more mastermind approach to me. No comment on the danger of it as a single person ability, since that's apparently moot at this point. Enchanting Encapsulation and Euphoric Strike both seem interesting from a perspective of making more thralls/minions, and would be really nice choices for someone like a vamp, where attacking wouldn't break charms and such. That Won't Work on Me Twice might be more interesting to me as an AMM ability if the AMM could gain resistances, immunities through the deaths/damage of its minions. Get prepared for the party by throwing your stooges at them to soak what they normally use. Maybe with a shifting pool of resistances that could be placed based on what they do. Anyhow, appologies for the confusion and these should be more in line with concept rather than implementation.
Captain Mutilate 11-19-05, 10:39 PM	My first choice was Chromantic Aura, and my second was Doom Coffin. They kind of work together, don't they? The Con damage in the coffin can be rationalized as extreme aging. Think about it - a creature that ages all around it. Plants wither, people age... The abberation could end up being a new take on the Grim Reaper. Except with an aura. And sidekicks.
Rake 11-19-05, 10:47 PM	My first choice was Chromantic Aura, and my second was Doom Coffin. They kind of work together, don't they? The Con damage in the coffin can be rationalized as extreme aging. Think about it - a creature that ages all around it. Plants wither, people age... The abberation could end up being a new take on the Grim Reaper. Except with an aura. And sidekicks. Who lives in the forest...
Lord Doombringer 11-20-05, 03:45 PM	Aw, man they didn't use mine. Oh well. I think that the Doom Coffin ability is awesome! If they don't use it with this monster, they should use it somewhere. Blasphemous Geometries is pretty cool too.
MindWandererB 11-20-05, 05:11 PM	Since legally WotC now owns all these ideas, I really hope they decide to use non-winning ideas in the future. Some of these are cool concepts, but belong better on a different creature type (like Blasphemous Geometries, should be on an outsider from the Farplane), or a different role CR (like Doom Coffin--skeletons are pointless for a CR 15+ critter, plus masterminds really shouldn't be mixing it up in melee). Also keep in mind, all, that this is for certain a forest-dweller! Some of these abilities (again, like Blasphemous Geometries and Doom Coffin) are pretty silly on such a creature. Some of the others, though, work really well- Body Walk and Sacrificing Minions are great "guerilla" abilities. Also consider feasibility. Disguise the Darkness and Strings of the Marionette require quite a bit of planning and calculation. Wild Magic Aura will slow a game considerably (although no more than an actual wild magic zone). That Won't Work Twice is also a bit math- and book-keeping-heavy. Now, my personal favorites are those that use the party's strengths against it. Learn by Subjection and Spell Hijack uses the party's own magic (the latter even steals buffs!), while Enchanting Encapsulation and Euphoric Strike make allies into enemies (or at least hindrances). These all have pretty simple mechanics, too. BTW... is anyone else having problems with the voting? My 2nd choice button works fine, but my 1st choice button gives me a HTTP 500 Internal Server error.
garthBEY 11-20-05, 11:19 PM	WOOT!!! I'm so happy that people are talking about Strings of the Marrionette. It was my first submission here on the boards, and to have it selected by WOTC just as a possibility is AWESOME!!!! I realize that mechanically it's not super sound yet, but seriously how many other things have we found ways to break, I mean I just read a thread about how iron pots are worth less than the raw material used to create them. So I will trust WOTC to finalize whatever concept we choose. I just really like the concept of being able to control your followers both in and out of combat. Of course, I'm an evil GM who will happily let my PC's think that their friends and cohorts that they get from leadership really are the people with them, not my arch villians marrionettes who have stealthily infiltrated their group. While my creature is following and watching from the shadows!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :devil:
Arhra 11-20-05, 11:40 PM	I was really happy to find an ability I made had been picked. In hindsight, perhaps I should have added that clause about being able to redirect touch (and maybe personal) range spells to itself - nothing quite as annoying as having it filch that heal meant for the party front-liner. My own favourites included Blasphemous Geometries, Bodywalk, Enchanting Encapsulation, Euphoric Strike, Sacrificing Minions…Is There a Problem it Can’t Solve and Thoroughly Disgusting, But Still Kind of Mesmerizing. Loved the idea behind the bodywalk and minion sacrificing. Mmm, minion bombs.
The Crystal Mind 11-22-05, 09:13 AM	Personal favorites must go to Blasphemous Geometries and Wild Magic Aura. The geometries is what causes magic to go all screwy in its area. Also, even though the AMM lives in the forest, who said the forest had to look natural? (If I may refer you to a Lovecraft story, The Colour from Outer Space). The local druids would be in a frenzy when the AMM moved into their area, the nymphs, dryads, and other fey could become warped by its presence (maybe aquiring half-farspawn template?), and generally causing havoc, but one that suits its own twisted goals.
trigon 11-22-05, 04:04 PM	Trigon feels that nearly all the abilities do not transalate into a forest-dweller, but then Trigon does not really see why a Abberation of such great intelligence (read cunning) and power would base itself in a forest per se, a cavern in a forest maybe? Being a lover of great destruction, Trigon likes the Aura of vengence ability, BUT the sheer chaos of the wild magic is great. Coincidentally Trigon wonders at the dislike towards the aura of vengence when any Tanari'i wielding DM can throw the same trick at CR 5 or higher (jovoc+any other tanari'i, Balors or mariliths seems pure brilliance here...[insert evil laugh]).
the Horc 11-30-05, 04:55 PM	Power Word Bump Until I can't vote for stuff, I'm voting for Sacrificing Minions and Strings of the Marionette. I think the idea of a puppeteer Mastermind with expendible cronies is a cool idea. Especially if large explosions are valid choices.
phoenixshard 12-01-05, 08:02 AM	I liked the Strings of the Marionette. That would be an awesome ability for any spell using creature to have. Imagine some form of lich having a horde of skeletons out there and he picks one at random every round and then unleashes his spells that way. That would be some confused party members there.
Lord Doombringer 12-02-05, 08:09 PM	I suppose that what they chose was good... One of my choices made it. I voted large for size by the way.
Honstrof 12-02-05, 10:43 PM	I voted fine only because microscopic wasn't a choice.
Zevox 12-02-05, 11:57 PM	I voted small size, because anything smaller seemed overdoing it, medium size creatures of all CRs are a dime a dozen, and there are plenty of large+ CR15+ creatures already. Besides, I want to see a small mastermind :) . Zevox
Morka 12-03-05, 10:54 AM	Huge. Just to increase the Wild Magic Aura. I imagine a big thing creature progressing in the forest, broking trees, trampling squirrels, and a bunch of druids following him wondering why their spells are going wong... Ok, it's not that much Mastermind-like, but it could be some kind of mutant Treant, awekening trees around himself and trampling squirrels...
I_Cant_Think_Of_A_Name 12-05-05, 12:55 AM	I voted fine only because microscopic wasn't a choice. I agree. Go for the smallest Mastermind possible. It will always be underestimated :evillaugh
JohnnyONeal 12-05-05, 09:57 AM	Yay! I look forward to seeing how they execute Wild Magic aura (and Blasphemous Geometries). The two abilities are defnitely complementary. Just judging by the abilities, it seems more like an outsider than an aberration, some sort of broken-mirror creature from Xoriat or the Far Realm. But if they decide to stick with the aberration type, and to make its forest environment meaningful, maybe it could be some sort of aberrant plant creature. For example, I can imagine it as a shambling mass of wood, set at bizarre angles. Perhaps it was originally a treant before being twisted into its reality-warping state by a campaign-appropriate extraplanar entity. In any case, I voted Large, just on the off-chance that they can somehow make a miniature out of this crazy critter.
Bartleby_GoC 12-05-05, 11:06 AM	Blasphemous Geometries (EX): Being an outsider from another dimension, the [AMM]’s form does not translate well on the Prime Material plane, appearing to be composed of obscene angles and planes, making it difficult to perceive by natives. As a result of its alien nature, the [AMM]’s body reacts strangely and unpredictably to native objects traveling in normal vectors toward it. A targeted attack, whether melee, ranged, arcane or otherwise, has a 10% chance per number of [AMM]’s opponents in a 10ft. radius of being redirected randomly at one of these opponents. Area of Effects would not be affected. --Formalhoute Soo... a Medium sized critter who is surrounded has an 80% chance of a redirect? A medium sized critter surrounded two deep (within 10') has a 260% chance of a redirect? Can someone explain what I'm missing here or is this simply broken? Bartleby
JohnnyONeal 12-05-05, 11:19 AM	Soo... a Medium sized critter who is surrounded has an 80% chance of a redirect? A medium sized critter surrounded two deep (within 10') has a 260% chance of a redirect? Can someone explain what I'm missing here or is this simply broken?Ergo the caveat that the concepts will be used, not necessarily the specific mechanics. After all, that's part of the difference between design and development!
Bartleby_GoC 12-05-05, 11:54 AM	Ergo the caveat that the concepts will be used, not necessarily the specific mechanics. After all, that's part of the difference between design and development! While I would agree that creative concepts should be encouraged, workable mechanics should be required fromt he start. Development shouldn't have to fix obvious problems. If it said, for example, that the redirect was subject a save on the attackers part or that there was a maximum chance of redirect it would be fine. The mechanics don't have to work well but they should work. I guess I'm one of those who feel game balance and clarity should be addressed from stage one. Ideas are great (essential, really), but in order to fit them into a rules system, you have to know how it's going to work and how it will compare with other things of similar power level. Development would be responsible for making sure the save DC or maximum redirect chance is correct for CR (Which, btw, is something I really want to see. How, exactly, do they determine CR? Can we get the mechanics and guidelines too?). Desides, the series of articles is under the Design & Development heading. ;) Bartleby (who likes shooting holes in anything run up a flagpole)
Morka 12-05-05, 04:01 PM	Not sure if it's too early yet to suggest what the monster could looks like, but it's an idea. I found on Elfwood an interresting concept: an Head with roots (http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/l/i/lismitchell/seenoevil.jpg.html). It would be good if the size is small or tiny.