Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moviestar 02-19-08, 08:59 PM	Greetings fellow gamers. I had to write down and record my adventure on this glorious day. My character is a 12th level female half-celestial human cleric named “Serra.” (ECL: 16th) Yesterday, in a brilliant moment of stacked bonuses, she killed a very old red dragon CR:21 in one combat round all by herself. I can hear the groans already. Hey you in the back that said “Cheater!” you are so wrong. Lets begin with the basics. She began life rolled up as a human (using point system, 25 build points): STR:16, DEX:10, CON:8, INT:8, WIS:15, CHA:13. Then I applied the half-celestial template to it and got STR:20, DEX:12, CON:12, INT:10, WIS:19, CHA:17 I added +1 WIS at 4th, 8th, and 12th level. Final Stats at 12th (STR:20, DEX:12, CON:12, INT:10, WIS:22, CHA:17) Now lets look at class levels. All 12 are Cleric levels. She began her cleric ways by not selecting a deity as it says in the PHB, p.30 that some clerics wield divine power but are not associated with any particular deity. She chose to select the domains of “Magic” and “War” as I saw her as a supernatural cleric devoted to fighting evil with spell and steel. I chose her alignment as Neutral Good and chose to channel positive energy and turn undead. War Domain gave her two feats, both a martial weapon proficiency and a weapon focus. Since she did not have a deity I selected the “Flamberge” as her chosen weapon (much like the greatsword – Flamberge is out of a supplement product that was approved by my DM. The weapon does the same 2D6 damage but has an enhanced 18-20/x2 critical). So she automatically started with Weapon Proficiency (Flamberge), and Weapon Focus (Flamberge) Magic domain gave a few skill bonuses, but I was mostly interested in “Anyspell” and “Anyspell, Greater” For feat selection, she took the following: 1st: Power Attack (Human bonus feat), 1st: Extra Turning, 3rd:Extend Spell, 6th: Persistent Spell, 9th: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), 12th: Extra Turning. By 12th level she had “14” turn attempts per day. She had a lot of adventures between 1st – 12th level as a cleric, and I do not have the time to write them all down. Suffice to say she earned a decent amount of gold. She was able to purchase the following items of note: Holy Flamberge +1, Mithral Full Plate: +1, Animated Heavy Steel Shield +1. She also paid a friendly wizard copy down into her own spellbook the wizard spells of: Wraithstrike, Haste, and a few others. Now comes the fun part. The other day, she was helping peasants build a village in a fertile area near a river. Unfortunately this area is plagued by a very old red dragon named “Vulcanis.” Serra went around gathering information about this dragon and found out a lot. It had been in the area for centuries doing anything from demanding virgin sacrifices to feeding on livestock and in general being a plague of evil upon these people. Serra was very angry at this dragon for preying on the weak and helpless. Its lair was high in the nearby mountains on a peak that had no access except for flying. Its lair was one big carved out hole inside with no side passages or tunnels. Serra prayed for enlightenment and the divine powers answered her plea. A plan formed in her mind at the spells she could summon and take the fight to the dragon. The next morning at dawn she prayed for the spells she would need to complete this task. The spells she prayed for included : Anyspell, Triadspell, Fell the Greatest Foe (extend), Zealot Pact, Divine Favor (extend), Divine Power, Righteous Might, Energy Immunity (Fire), Dispel Magic, and Anyspell, Greater. She cast Anyspell and memorized “Wraithstrike” from her spellbook. She cast Anyspell, Greater and memorized “Haste” from her spellbook. She cast Triadspell on “Wraithstrike” so that she could cast it up to 3 times that day (just in case). She cast “Energy Immunity (Fire)” on herself to protect from the dragon’s breath. She cast “Zealot Pact” and paid the 500xp cost (she had enough extra xp to do this and still remain 12th level). Next she used her Divine Metamagic feat and cast a persistent version of “Divine Power” using 7 turn attempts for a 24 hour version of the spell. She did the same for “Righteous Might” using her last 7 turn attempts for it to remain 24 hours. These two spells increased her strength by +6 and +8 respectively, making it a STR:34, with a +12 bonus. Her base attack bonus was also +12 due to Divine Power. Since she was a large humanoid now due to Righteous Might, her Flamberge grew as well now doing 3d6 damage. At this point she unfurled her wings and flew to the dragon’s lair. She landed outside and saw that the dragon was sleeping within. So she cast her remaining spells in order: Fell the Greatest Foe, Divine Favor, and Haste. She immediately flew in 10 feet in front of the dragon with a ready action to counter a spell if the dragon began to cast. She yelled at the dragon “Vulcanis your terror is ended. Leave the area with all your belongings immediately never to return or die!” The dragon, who had heard her flying up chuckled and said “You look tasty… Virgin?” and started his attack. Roll initiative. Serra won. 1st: She declares the use of power attack, using all of her now enhanced +12 base attack bonus for +24 damage (two-handed weapon). 2nd: She uses a swift action to cast “Wraitstrike” making all her melee attacks into melee TOUCH attacks for the entire round. 3rd: she attacks full round action. (10 foot threat range due to Large size) Her attack bonus from BAB is gone to Power Attack, so she only gets the other bonuses, but she does get the 3 attacks and a 4th attack from haste (at the highest bonus). To hit bonus: +12 from strength, +4 from divine favor, +4 from Zealot Pact, +2 from size (Large hitting Gargantuan), +1 from weapon bonus, +1 weapon focus, +1 Haste = +25 /+25 / +20 / +15 (Since the dragon has a touch AC of 9, this means Serra will only miss on a natural 1) As for damage, Serra has a lot of bonuses. First lets look at dice damage. 3d6 (increased size Flamberge), +2d6 HOLY, +2d6 (Fell the greatest foe 2 size between large – gargantuan) = TOTAL: 7d6 dice damage. Next is plus damage. +18 for strength (2 handed), +4 divine favor, +24 from power attack, +1 weapon bonus = TOTAL BONUS DAMAGE: +47 damage. 7D6+47 with a crit range of 18-20/x2 , and Zealot pact DOUBLES DAMAGE against its chosen foe. Serra’s first attack was a natural 20, she confirmed and did 7D6+47 x3 damage. (Multiplier rule made it x3 not x4) Needless to say.. Serra did 240, 180, 142 damage in a row and did not even get to use her 4th attack as the dragon (with only 449 hitpoints) fell dead at her feet on the 3rd attack. My DM… as well as the rest of the party who I left behind at camp… were stunned into silence. Now granted, it was not foolproof. There were several things that could have gone wrong including rolling natural ones combined with poor damage rolls on other hits, and worst of all would have been the dragon casting dispel magic on her successfully. This is why I had the cleric ready to dispel any “dispel magic” cast by the dragon as I came inside. I also assumed that a wounded red dragon would have tried to incinerate her with his breath weapon first before fleeing (and since she had immunity to fire, it would have wasted a turn for the dragon). Since she could have cast Wraithstrike 3 times, she had a few rounds to kill it (even if she had to chase it around and only get a single attack on those follow up rounds). CLERIC POWER!
Sinfire Titan 02-19-08, 09:46 PM	I'm assuming that the dragon was also unbuffed for this encounter. A fully buffed Dragon can be a nightmare, even to DMM (Persist) Clerics. You even took it by surprise by coming directly to its lair. No other encounters that day to speak of from what I am reading. Of course, the fact that luck took a major roll in this combat also says something about your DM. My other assumption is that the Dragon was completely unmodified from the stats presented in the MM. The fact of the matter is, a smart dragon would never let the PCs anywhere near it until it was fully prepared to slaughter them. Many DMs think that a Dragon as written can be a combat machine with just its melee attacks. This is somewhat true, if the PCs are on their last legs for the day. But in single Encounter/Day combat, this is one of the biggest mistakes a DM can make. Fully buffed with the right spells, a Dragon can have an AC far higher than the PCs can hit reliably. Also, do to their racial HD, Practiced Spellcaster can prevent debuffing them. They have SR that can easily be avoided with the right spells, and their DR is pathetic for their CR. Intelligent DMs know better than to throw an unmodified Dragon at anything, even 1st level PCs. At the very least, granting them the Elite Array and changing their feats and spells known will do wonders to the CR. The MM 3.5 shows horribly unmodified stats, something the MM4 and MM5 make up for. Those books take into account all resources the monster has at its disposal prior to encountering the PCs. At the very least, including the Draconimicon can bolster a Dragon considerably with just a few modest feats. Regardless, you did something special. You took on a monster with a PC who is 4 levels behind her ECL, and a spellcaster no less. You made mince meat out of something that is supposed to be the most threatening creature in DnD, even more so that Big T. For that, Kudos.
Moviestar 02-19-08, 11:53 PM	Thanks for the reply Sinfire, A few points: * My character only identified there was a dragon in the area by asking around town (DM wanted us to be afraid of it). We had not fought or encountered the dragon yet. This way, it was believable that the dragon was not aware of us. The dragon was content, un-afraid, and had not been challenged in many decades. It felt safe it its perch so high up in the mountains that it had few defenses up when it was inside its lair (it did use magics to guard its treasure when it was out). * None of the abilities or spells I cast ever allowed any saving throw or spell resistance on the part of the dragon. This was important since it had such high saves and SR I knew I would never land any spells. The dragon's armor was completely negated by the "Wraithstrike" spell (turns any attacks that round into a melee touch attack, no save, no SR). * It all happened in 1 round. The simple fact was that the dragon had no time to do anything to respond. He might have heard my cleric cast those three spells outside its lair, but again it was very confident in its abilities and did not fear a single humanoid entering its lair (especially a beautiful female that it was ready to gobble up). Even if you take into account an intelligent monster with amazing feats... It is believeable that this would work given the arrogance of red dragons in general.
ciaran 02-20-08, 12:55 AM	A CR 21 caster would have all of its hour/level spells already cast. Did the DM do that? Its unlikely that you'll get anything but scepticism. Not only were you 5 CRs short but dragon is one of the D's in D&D and therefore holds a place of holiness of sorts. Good rolls and preparation can go a long way, though.
Sinfire Titan 02-20-08, 01:13 AM	Thanks for the reply Sinfire, A few points: * My character only identified there was a dragon in the area by asking around town (DM wanted us to be afraid of it). We had not fought or encountered the dragon yet. This way, it was believable that the dragon was not aware of us. The dragon was content, un-afraid, and had not been challenged in many decades. It felt safe it its perch so high up in the mountains that it had few defenses up when it was inside its lair (it did use magics to guard its treasure when it was out). Point made. Arrogance can really kill ya. * None of the abilities or spells I cast ever allowed any saving throw or spell resistance on the part of the dragon. This was important since it had such high saves and SR I knew I would never land any spells. The dragon's armor was completely negated by the "Wraithstrike" spell (turns any attacks that round into a melee touch attack, no save, no SR). I am aware of that fact. Note that I said it can be avoided, referring to both buffs and SR: No spells in general. * It all happened in 1 round. The simple fact was that the dragon had no time to do anything to respond. He might have heard my cleric cast those three spells outside its lair, but again it was very confident in its abilities and did not fear a single humanoid entering its lair (especially a beautiful female that it was ready to gobble up). Even if you take into account an intelligent monster with amazing feats... It is believeable that this would work given the arrogance of red dragons in general. As to the third point, any time a Dragon is encountered, it should have all of its Hour/Level buffs all ready cast. Even in its lair. Upon seeing that you were a spellcaster, it could easily have figured out what spells you were casting with a Free action Spellcraft check, and taken appropriate measures to put up its own buffs to deal with you. This is an example of sheer stupidity on the behalf of the DM, full-grown Red Dragons have an IQ of at least 200+. This is something that would tell it to be prepared for the worst case scenario, which is what the DM gave to you. Had he realized this sooner, he would have buffed the Dragon appropriately.
Mock26 02-20-08, 04:16 AM	Your DM must truly be horrid. If this had been in my world there is NO WAY a dragon would have had such an obvious lair. It was also a death trap of a lair. Even a lot of animals have escape tunnels for their lairs. There should have been several false tunnels that were heavily trapped. There should have been magical alarm systems in place to alert the dragon of the approach of people. At that age he should have had some servants keeping an eye open while he was sleeping. While dragons are definitely arrogant they aren't stupid, and your DM gave you a stupid dragon. A dragon that stupid would have been killed off ages ago.
Drag0nUL 02-20-08, 10:37 AM	I'll have to agree with the above poster. While your deed is heroic(not many adventurers manage to kill a dragon on their own), it was largely made possible by your DM's lack of skill while dealing with dragons. A CR 21 red dragon would have 22 Int and 23 Wis. That's a whole lot more than most mortal beings. So it should realize that at least a couple basic defenses around his lair and making sure it has a way out of trouble go a long way toward ensuring it's survival. By this age he must surely have been targeted by many attacks, if not by adventurers, at least by rival dragons. And it can't have survived that long by being stupid and careless. Also, being in the same area for centuries, it should have developed at least a basic information network, even only to warn it when something worth looting passes by. That dragon was handed to you on a silver platter IMHO. Dragons played to their full potential are a real pain....somewhere. Even at levels much closer to their CR.
Krusk 02-20-08, 11:31 AM	Cool, glad you had fun killing a dragon. Some notes about your strategy. -No matter how much you paid a wizard he cannot teach a cleric wraithstrike Nor any other noncleric arcane spell. You do know every single cleric spell for free automatically. -flamberge is a greatsword but better? third party material is sometimes strange like that. It also generally tones down the greatness of accomplishments. I could create a 3rd party book with a weapon the buster blade, it deals 18d12 damage with a 15-20X5 critical. My DM approved it so its legit. -Divine metaqmagic is generally considered pretty broken, especially persistant. -im curious what multiplier rule made your critical X3 and not X2? are you using some sort of houserule? those often times do increase things like this. This is ontop of your DM poorly designing a dragons lair/poorly run dragon encounter. When you come to message boards talking about your epic accomplishments make sure you are playing by the books. Even if run strictly RAW most people don't find posts like this very impressive, as there about a hundred diffrent things that could alter it. DM's experience, and skill, house rules, third party matierial, ect. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your future games, but posts like this are generally going to be ripped apart. I noticed you were new so welcome to the boards.
Sinfire Titan 02-20-08, 12:01 PM	Cool, glad you had fun killing a dragon. Some notes about your strategy. -No matter how much you paid a wizard he cannot teach a cleric wraithstrike Nor any other noncleric arcane spell. You do know every single cleric spell for free automatically. -flamberge is a greatsword but better? third party material is sometimes strange like that. It also generally tones down the greatness of accomplishments. I could create a 3rd party book with a weapon the buster blade, it deals 18d12 damage with a 15-20X5 critical. My DM approved it so its legit. -Divine metaqmagic is generally considered pretty broken, especially persistant. -im curious what multiplier rule made your critical X3 and not X2? are you using some sort of houserule? those often times do increase things like this. This is ontop of your DM poorly designing a dragons lair/poorly run dragon encounter. When you come to message boards talking about your epic accomplishments make sure you are playing by the books. Even if run strictly RAW most people don't find posts like this very impressive, as there about a hundred diffrent things that could alter it. DM's experience, and skill, house rules, third party matierial, ect. Anyway, I hope you enjoy your future games, but posts like this are generally going to be ripped apart. I noticed you were new so welcome to the boards. She used Anyspell for Wraithstrike, and prepared it via a copied spellbook. I've seen the rules for a Flameberg, think like a Mercurial Greatsword, and you wouldn't be that far off. Some deities do grant Exotic weapons via the War domain.
pigknight 02-20-08, 02:37 PM	Bravo, now do NOT let this go to your head. Several things could have gotten Serra killed 1) A dragon with a CR 4 higher than her ECL 2) Was solo 3) Got a crit. and high damage rolls. Futhermore, you killed it legally, the flamberg's 18-20 did not really affect the battle, and you really went to down on those turn attempts. If you did not kill the dragon in 1 turn you would have been dispelled, you used up the readied action after you attacked. Just wondering but what are the other party members?
eamon 02-20-08, 02:57 PM	You did make a number of mistakes, which makes this more of a one-off than of a serious thing. Notably, Persistant Spell IS NOT the problem here, and in general, it not as broken as you'd think, using the errata (which you clearly did) and paying attention to which spells are allowed (which you did too). This combat took all of one round; so you could have done even better without persist spell for this combat. The weapon is a little more powerful than core, but not problematic - it's crit range is 18-20/x2? That's fine. Generally, you can't just pick whatever weapon you wish to work with the war domain, however, so that is suspect, an you should not have been able to pick it. It's not a big problem, but it's not entirely proper. Wraithstrike is, however, much, much worse, and I would never allow near any game I play or DM in - seriously, not without a fight, not even as a player. It's devastatingly broken since so few abilities take it into account. If you do wish to add it to your game, you need to add the defenses against it as well - such as scintillating scales (essentially, natural armor becomes a deflection bonus and thus works against touch AC as well). This imbalance makes the encounter a DM mistake. You did not use the important errata's to Righteous Might and Divine Favor. These would have inhibited your character quite a bit. Check out the errata's - and weep, the DMM Persist cleric no longer reigns supreme (as should be, of course!). Wraithstrike would probably still have sufficed, but maybe not... It seems you added your size difference to attack rolls. That's incorrect, you should add only your own size penalty to attack rolls. The size penalty for the dragon is already accounted for in it's stats - the way you played it, its size modifier is counted double. Almost certainly, this pales in comparison to wraithstrike - unless the dragon had used proper precautions such as scintillation scales. It's incredible (literally unbelievable) that a gargantuan dragon would have a lair so small and cramp himself so to his detriment that you could approach unseen and without attack of opportunity to within 10 feet before the combat starts. Without a full attack, even with wraithstrike, you should have perished, since it's very unlikely you'd have survived the dragon's attack - and it could also have simply taken to the air and blasted you into submission with it's breath weapon over time - an entirely reasonable action for a dragon to take after being hit so terrifyingly hard. And, you would not have gained the first attack, since neither side was surprised and the dragon out-reached you. A simple trip attack, and you'd have been helpless to avoid his attacks. Also, you can't ready Dispel Magic outside of combat. If you're close enough to be able to ready attacks, you must enter combat to do so, and if you could ready dispel magic, then the dragon could have made attacks of opportunities. Clearly, you were well prepared, and the DM not. This is unreasonable. It's unfortunately, but you destroyed not a dragon, but a DM's battle plan. Let's hope it's a lesson to him - all enemies must be prepared properly using no fewer splatbooks than the PC's - or else the PC's must not be allowed any non-core material, and even then, the creatures must be reasonably buffed, no different from PC's. That dragon is a 13th level caster (higher than yours!), able to cast sorcerer and cleric and a number of domain spells, and seemingly, was entirely unbuffed? This is no more believable than that you could have killed a level 21 archmage. Sure, you could, if somehow you snuck up on him to within full-attack range, misuse a number of rules (unintentionally, I believe, but not inconsequentially), use a spell from a splat book the archmage doesn't have access too, the archmage is further completely unprepared but you are not, and further, the archmage has not even used his normal daily protections (i.e., he's insane), and fails to use a single magic item (very insane, for a covetous magic-item hording creature), and has designed his home to be as easy as possible to infiltrate and simultaneously as disadvantageous to him, should a hostile creature appear. You fought against something more reminiscient of a giant zombie. Slow, approachable, stupid, but with a lot of hit points. Normally CR 6, but CR 7 for the extreme number of hitpoints (tough it still only has AC 9, right...). I'm not kidding, that's how much difference these errors make.
Moviestar 02-20-08, 10:35 PM	Thanks for the reply eamon: * You are correct i was unaware of the errata of Righteous Might and Divine Favor, but looking at them they would only reduce my hit by 3 and damage by 5 per hit. Not exactly a huge nerf to +25-+15 to hit, and 7D6+47 damage. * I did take into account the size correctly. A very old dragon has a listed touch AC of 6, I was saying "9" (removing their size adjustment for medium). * Wraithstrike may be powerful... But it has not been errata or changed, and my DM allowed it. * The flamberge was not the issue... I could have used a greatsword for the example I gave. --- All that being said, I hear you. I understand that my DM had in mind an over-confident dragon that had been living in the area for decades without a good fight. It had grown lazy. This is very much in line with how dragons are described even in the Dracononmicon or even popular literature. It is easily concieveable that a dragon could see my cleric coming and not be worried. My character is also a beautiful woman, the red dragon's food of choice. I was betting on the fact that as long as I won initiative, I would win the fight. I was right.
Sinfire Titan 02-20-08, 11:17 PM	Thanks for the reply eamon: * You are correct i was unaware of the errata of Righteous Might and Divine Favor, but looking at them they would only reduce my hit by 3 and damage by 5 per hit. Not exactly a huge nerf to +25-+15 to hit, and 7D6+47 damage. * I did take into account the size correctly. A very old dragon has a listed touch AC of 6, I was saying "9" (removing their size adjustment for medium). * Wraithstrike may be powerful... But it has not been errata or changed, and my DM allowed it. * The flamberge was not the issue... I could have used a greatsword for the example I gave. --- All that being said, I hear you. I understand that my DM had in mind an over-confident dragon that had been living in the area for decades without a good fight. It had grown lazy. This is very much in line with how dragons are described even in the Dracononmicon or even popular literature. It is easily concieveable that a dragon could see my cleric coming and not be worried. My character is also a beautiful woman, the red dragon's food of choice. I was betting on the fact that as long as I won initiative, I would win the fight. I was right. Wrong. I own the Draconomicon, it was the first DnD book I purchased *even before the Core 3). It says that many Dragons are arrogant, but that each of them knows better than to leave their guard down. It also says not to fight a Dragon if you can avoid it.
Kala2000 02-21-08, 06:26 AM	Sadly, as cool as figuring out stuff like this by yourself is and then successfully applying it in a gaming session is, this is hardly a very qualified brag. All that being said, I hear you. I understand that my DM had in mind an over-confident dragon that had been living in the area for decades without a good fight. It had grown lazy. Dragons arent stupid even if they are lazy. Suicidal is totally different from lazy. A simple detect magic spell cast at you tells the dragon that you arent just some pretty girl flying at his cave. And I don't think very old red dragons who got extremely lazy decide to spend the rest of their life dozing off in a hole on a mountain side accessible to anyone. Unless they are, like previously stated, suicidal. The dragon part was really poorly executed from your DM's part and it shouldn't have never occurred like it did. Now as far as the damage output goes. Ok so you killed a dragon in one round, but against some real in that department, well. It just doesnt impress me. And many others for that matter.
Jutter 02-21-08, 08:54 AM	First of all, kudo's for the preparation. It was good thinking. I won't check it all, and I even assume that somewhere in between all those bonuses there's a small mistake, but it can't be more than a few points on attack or damage. And like you said, considering the AC of the dragon and the left-over attack, it didn't matter that much. Even if the dragon survived your first round, I'd probably have him get up and use a breath weapon on you, but you even managed to get some immunity. So good work on the preparation! I have to agree with previous posters though: this dragon was handed to you on a silver platter. He's lying in his cave, fast asleep? He has no other defenses aside from his sleeping self? He hears a cleric cast three spells just outside his lair, and he's to lazy to do anything? The bottom line is you could have done it with a level 1 fighter armed with a butterknife, because the DM told the big giant lizard not to hurt your PC.
Mock26 02-21-08, 01:12 PM	A simple detect magic spell cast at you tells the dragon that you arent just some pretty girl flying at his cave. Actually, I don't think that a stupid goblin would look at a pretty gril flying through the air and NOT know that this girl was probably a wizard or an adventurer. And a dragon is a LOT more intelligent than a goblin. Any human flying into a dragon's cave should have triggered massive alarm bells in the dragon's mind. Heck, any living creatuve walking, crawling, slithering, moon-walking, stomping, crumping, waltzing, hopping, dancing, tumbling, etc. into a dragon's cave should trigger a warning. The only intelligent creatures who would generally enter a dragon's cave would be those who think that they could kill the dragon. My favorite food is lobster. If a lobster flew uninvited into my apartment I can guarantee you that I would NOT eat it!