20th-level barbarian killed by 1st level wizard! [Archive] - Wizards Community

20th-level barbarian killed by 1st level wizard! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raven Dark
12-29-05, 04:25 PM My friend was playing a typical 20th level barbarian (with a greataxe, power attack, etc.) in last night's dungeon crawl one shot.

Before venturing into the dungoen of doom the dumb lumox of a barbarian got into a dispute over the purchase price of a particular magical item he wanted for the mission. He drew out his greataxe and, with murderous intent, swung at the venerable old man inf ront of him!

He used maximum power attack AND rage bonuses since he figured the dealer was just a pushover (everyone is a pushover when you are 20th level I think was his reasoning).

In the end, the wizard won initiative, cast backbiter (Spell Compendium) on the barbarian's greataxe, the barbarian swung and got a maximum damage critical which, in turn, severed our barbarian straight down the middle!
:eek: :weep: :eek:

The rest of our characters all ran away thinking that the DM was using an epic level spellcaster or something to get us back for being stupid (kind of like the teleporting dragon trick).

It wasn't until later that we found out the truth. lol. :embarrass

Talk about karma... :P
Nitan
12-29-05, 04:33 PM ...I think this story involved the breaking of, or ignoring of, a few rules.

Oh well, it's always funny to screw over a player. No it isn't...
elven warriorXX
12-29-05, 04:35 PM Yea I think so to but still Freakin funny :) Best story I have herd in a while.
Thumbtack
12-29-05, 04:36 PM Wow. I'm off to go learn more about this spell!

Thunt
Nitan
12-29-05, 04:40 PM Yea I think so to but still Freakin funny :) Best story I have herd in a while.

I usually don't find it funny when a DM goes out of his or her way, especially if they break or ignore rules in the process, to screw over,in this case kill, a character.

Maybe I get a bit too attached to my characters though. Oh well.

By the way, Thunt, I love your comic.
was_fired
12-29-05, 05:08 PM I don't see what rules the DM broke. Then again I don't have complete arcana on hand to double check the spell. From what I remember backbiter allowed for no save or just a will save, affects wooden weapons (an axe is described in the example as it has a wooden haft), and did exactly what it was described as doing (though it might have just said auto-hit removing the roll which would remove the potential for a critical).
Edymnion
12-29-05, 05:21 PM Nope, no rules were broken that I can see.

Backbiter specifically uses a Greataxe as an example in the spell description.

Accourding to the spell, only magical weapons get a save against it, and even then its a will save. The weilder of the weapon is not aware of the spell placed on their weapon. It is indeed lvl 1, it is a Short ranged spell meaning the caster doesn't need to touch the weapon in question, and its just V,S, and a focus of a dagger, which anybody would have on them in that day and age (daggers were tools more than weapons in that age).

Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show!
Nitan
12-29-05, 05:30 PM Nope, no rules were broken that I can see.

Backbiter specifically uses a Greataxe as an example in the spell description.

Accourding to the spell, only magical weapons get a save against it, and even then its a will save. The weilder of the weapon is not aware of the spell placed on their weapon. It is indeed lvl 1, it is a Short ranged spell meaning the caster doesn't need to touch the weapon in question, and its just V,S, and a focus of a dagger, which anybody would have on them in that day and age (daggers were tools more than weapons in that age).

Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show!

What components does it have? Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity?

I'm guessing since he's high level he'd have that +8 bonus to Will Saves while in Rage? If not, he still has a solid +4 bonus.

I'm also a bit unsure as to how the Barbarian one-hitted himself, crit or not.

But whatever. This is funnier then the Paladin gestapo coming out and unloading Smite Evils.
Escef
12-29-05, 05:47 PM What components does it have? Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity?

There's always casting defensively. Besides, the counter in the shop could have been declared cover, thus negating AoOs.
Raven Dark
12-29-05, 06:12 PM ...I think this story involved the breaking of, or ignoring of, a few rules.[/SIZE]

Which rules were broken? :confused:
was_fired
12-29-05, 06:32 PM I'd assume the barb would be at most 13th level so his bonus to will saves (if wis 10) would be +4 without rage and since the shop keep won initiative the barb is denied his AoO due to being flat-footed. Since the barb failed he wouldn't notice the spell. If his Con was 16 before rage (22 with) average HP end up at 168. Now if he focused more on Strength and had 24 base, 30 with rage and packed a +3 burst weapon his damage would end up as: 3x(1d12 + 3 + 15 + 26) = 3d12 + 1d6 + 2d10 + 132. So he would need to produce 46 damage from damage dice to kill himself via damage instantly (+10 from the original 36 since you die at -10 not 0). The average result of those dice is 34 putting it well within the range of possibility.

It should be noted I have no information about what this characters stats are or his equipment. I just wanted to prove it was possible for a barbarian to kill himself at a higher level instantly with his own great axe's crit.
Edymnion
12-29-05, 06:35 PM What components does it have?Verbal, Somantic, and a Focus.Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity?Defensive spellcasting, or has been said a counter to give cover would negate the AoO, the Barbarian could have simply missed, or the Wizard simply took a 5' step backwards, putting him out of AoO range before he started casting.I'm guessing since he's high level he'd have that +8 bonus to Will Saves while in Rage? If not, he still has a solid +4 bonus.No he wouldn't. The spell is cast on the weapon, not the Barbarian. The weapon does not get a save unless it is magical, and then it uses it's own will save, not it's weilder's.I'm also a bit unsure as to how the Barbarian one-hitted himself, crit or not.All he has to do is 50 points of damage, and he forces a Death by Massive Damage save. I would think a 20th level raging barbarian with an appropriately decked out greataxe doing a power attack is easily capable of doing 50 points of damage in one swing.
green_yawgmoth
12-29-05, 06:56 PM I'd assume the barb would be at most 13th level so his bonus to will saves (if wis 10) would be +4 without rage and since the shop keep won initiative the barb is denied his AoO due to being flat-footed. Since the barb failed he wouldn't notice the spell. If his Con was 16 before rage (22 with) average HP end up at 168. Now if he focused more on Strength and had 24 base, 30 with rage and packed a +3 burst weapon his damage would end up as: 3x(1d12 + 3 + 15 + 26) = 3d12 + 1d6 + 2d10 + 132. So he would need to produce 46 damage from damage dice to kill himself via damage instantly (+10 from the original 36 since you die at -10 not 0). The average result of those dice is 34 putting it well within the range of possibility.

It should be noted I have no information about what this characters stats are or his equipment. I just wanted to prove it was possible for a barbarian to kill himself at a higher level instantly with his own great axe's crit.
Don't forget that he said that it was a maximum damage crit. So with the above maths, it would be 36 +6 +20 +132 = 194 damage. Ouch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
cwslyclgh
12-29-05, 07:45 PM The weapon does not get a save unless it is magical, and then it uses it's own will save, not it's weilder's.an attended object gets its own save or it's wielders which ever is higher, this is the case any time the object would have to make a save, and it is even needlessly spelled out in the text of the backbiter spell...
Raven Dark
12-29-05, 08:26 PM an attended object gets its own save or it's wielders which ever is higher, this is the case any time the object would have to make a save, and it is even needlessly spelled out in the text of the backbiter spell...

The Barbarian rolled really low on his save. That combined with a penalty from Wisdom made it so he didn't have a chance. :(
SnakePlisken
12-29-05, 08:31 PM No it isn't...[/SIZE]

yeah it is... :D
was_fired
12-29-05, 08:36 PM I just noticed that the barbarian in question was 20th level (oops). So lets take my example further. He should be packing a +6 Str item along with (if Str focused) +5 extra due to wish. Now lets say he wasn't the brightest so he went with an amulet of natural armor as opposed to of health, so no con boosts besides rage. So jump his Str 39 to and Con 22 to with rage. This puts his hitpoints to 256 (rounded up). Now at 20th level odds are your packing a +10 weapon so lets say a +5 two burst type keen weapon (the keen doesn't matter, but with those properties it would be likely). His damage would be 3(1d12 + 5 + 21 Str + 40 Power Attack) + 2d6 + 4d10 = 3d12 + 2d6 + 4d10 + 198. So he would need to do 68 damage. Average damage from those dice produce 48.5, and maxium results produce 88. Instant death is possible with a con boosting item.
Board_Rider
12-29-05, 08:46 PM Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon? HA!!

I so want a Spell Compendium now.
Seeker95
12-29-05, 10:00 PM Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon?Because he is playing under the 2nd edition "distrusts magic" concept?
Raven Dark
12-29-05, 10:21 PM Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon? HA!!

I so want a Spell Compendium now.

What do you think he was trying to buy? :D ;) :P
Vangerdahast
12-29-05, 10:55 PM Well, it´s a good story, and sounds true.

But indeed it´s weird for a 20th lvl Brb not to have a magical weapon...

...unless he´s a Forsaker.
Board_Rider
12-29-05, 11:31 PM What do you think he was trying to buy? :D ;) :P
Then, I have to ask, what was a 1st Level Wizard doing with a magical Greataxe? :confused:
Edymnion
12-30-05, 12:15 AM Then, I have to ask, what was a 1st Level Wizard doing with a magical Greataxe? :confused:It was stolen, it was sundered, they just got through fighting a rust monster, they had just escaped from being captured and didn't have their gear back yet... plenty of options :)
Vaalingrade Ashland
12-30-05, 12:24 AM Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show!
Elliot: "Hey, Jotan, some adventurers rode into town this morning."

Jotan: "Oh crap, really? You know how most of them are. They think they can just kill people to solve all thier problems."

Elliot: "Yeah, unlike us villagers, who hire adventurers to kill things (sweet Pelor, Jotan, you know goblins and orcs aren't people) to solve all our problems.

Jotan: "That's just crazy old Jebai. Man, that old coot can't even put his feet up without hiring an adventurer to kill a golbin to put them up on."

Elliot: "Yes, he's a hero to us all. Well, anyway, just a heads up, they'll be coming here to buy magic items."

Jotan: "Thanks for the warning, better memorize backbiter today, just in case."
Board_Rider
12-30-05, 12:25 AM If their gear was missing then where did the Barbarian get the axe that he did have, same goes for with the sunder argument and the rust monster option. If their gear was missing too, then how was the Barb going to pay for the axe?

hmmmm.. :cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 12-29-05, 04:25 PM	My friend was playing a typical 20th level barbarian (with a greataxe, power attack, etc.) in last night's dungeon crawl one shot. Before venturing into the dungoen of doom the dumb lumox of a barbarian got into a dispute over the purchase price of a particular magical item he wanted for the mission. He drew out his greataxe and, with murderous intent, swung at the venerable old man inf ront of him! He used maximum power attack AND rage bonuses since he figured the dealer was just a pushover (everyone is a pushover when you are 20th level I think was his reasoning). In the end, the wizard won initiative, cast backbiter (Spell Compendium) on the barbarian's greataxe, the barbarian swung and got a maximum damage critical which, in turn, severed our barbarian straight down the middle! :eek: :weep: :eek: The rest of our characters all ran away thinking that the DM was using an epic level spellcaster or something to get us back for being stupid (kind of like the teleporting dragon trick). It wasn't until later that we found out the truth. lol. :embarrass Talk about karma... :P
Nitan 12-29-05, 04:33 PM	...I think this story involved the breaking of, or ignoring of, a few rules. Oh well, it's always funny to screw over a player. No it isn't...
elven warriorXX 12-29-05, 04:35 PM	Yea I think so to but still Freakin funny :) Best story I have herd in a while.
Thumbtack 12-29-05, 04:36 PM	Wow. I'm off to go learn more about this spell! Thunt
Nitan 12-29-05, 04:40 PM	Yea I think so to but still Freakin funny :) Best story I have herd in a while. I usually don't find it funny when a DM goes out of his or her way, especially if they break or ignore rules in the process, to screw over,in this case kill, a character. Maybe I get a bit too attached to my characters though. Oh well. By the way, Thunt, I love your comic.
was_fired 12-29-05, 05:08 PM	I don't see what rules the DM broke. Then again I don't have complete arcana on hand to double check the spell. From what I remember backbiter allowed for no save or just a will save, affects wooden weapons (an axe is described in the example as it has a wooden haft), and did exactly what it was described as doing (though it might have just said auto-hit removing the roll which would remove the potential for a critical).
Edymnion 12-29-05, 05:21 PM	Nope, no rules were broken that I can see. Backbiter specifically uses a Greataxe as an example in the spell description. Accourding to the spell, only magical weapons get a save against it, and even then its a will save. The weilder of the weapon is not aware of the spell placed on their weapon. It is indeed lvl 1, it is a Short ranged spell meaning the caster doesn't need to touch the weapon in question, and its just V,S, and a focus of a dagger, which anybody would have on them in that day and age (daggers were tools more than weapons in that age). Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show!
Nitan 12-29-05, 05:30 PM	Nope, no rules were broken that I can see. Backbiter specifically uses a Greataxe as an example in the spell description. Accourding to the spell, only magical weapons get a save against it, and even then its a will save. The weilder of the weapon is not aware of the spell placed on their weapon. It is indeed lvl 1, it is a Short ranged spell meaning the caster doesn't need to touch the weapon in question, and its just V,S, and a focus of a dagger, which anybody would have on them in that day and age (daggers were tools more than weapons in that age). Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show! What components does it have? Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity? I'm guessing since he's high level he'd have that +8 bonus to Will Saves while in Rage? If not, he still has a solid +4 bonus. I'm also a bit unsure as to how the Barbarian one-hitted himself, crit or not. But whatever. This is funnier then the Paladin gestapo coming out and unloading Smite Evils.
Escef 12-29-05, 05:47 PM	What components does it have? Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity? There's always casting defensively. Besides, the counter in the shop could have been declared cover, thus negating AoOs.
Raven Dark 12-29-05, 06:12 PM	...I think this story involved the breaking of, or ignoring of, a few rules.[/SIZE] Which rules were broken? :confused:
was_fired 12-29-05, 06:32 PM	I'd assume the barb would be at most 13th level so his bonus to will saves (if wis 10) would be +4 without rage and since the shop keep won initiative the barb is denied his AoO due to being flat-footed. Since the barb failed he wouldn't notice the spell. If his Con was 16 before rage (22 with) average HP end up at 168. Now if he focused more on Strength and had 24 base, 30 with rage and packed a +3 burst weapon his damage would end up as: 3x(1d12 + 3 + 15 + 26) = 3d12 + 1d6 + 2d10 + 132. So he would need to produce 46 damage from damage dice to kill himself via damage instantly (+10 from the original 36 since you die at -10 not 0). The average result of those dice is 34 putting it well within the range of possibility. It should be noted I have no information about what this characters stats are or his equipment. I just wanted to prove it was possible for a barbarian to kill himself at a higher level instantly with his own great axe's crit.
Edymnion 12-29-05, 06:35 PM	What components does it have?Verbal, Somantic, and a Focus.Wouldn't its casting have provoked an Attack of Opportunity?Defensive spellcasting, or has been said a counter to give cover would negate the AoO, the Barbarian could have simply missed, or the Wizard simply took a 5' step backwards, putting him out of AoO range before he started casting.I'm guessing since he's high level he'd have that +8 bonus to Will Saves while in Rage? If not, he still has a solid +4 bonus.No he wouldn't. The spell is cast on the weapon, not the Barbarian. The weapon does not get a save unless it is magical, and then it uses it's own will save, not it's weilder's.I'm also a bit unsure as to how the Barbarian one-hitted himself, crit or not.All he has to do is 50 points of damage, and he forces a Death by Massive Damage save. I would think a 20th level raging barbarian with an appropriately decked out greataxe doing a power attack is easily capable of doing 50 points of damage in one swing.
green_yawgmoth 12-29-05, 06:56 PM	I'd assume the barb would be at most 13th level so his bonus to will saves (if wis 10) would be +4 without rage and since the shop keep won initiative the barb is denied his AoO due to being flat-footed. Since the barb failed he wouldn't notice the spell. If his Con was 16 before rage (22 with) average HP end up at 168. Now if he focused more on Strength and had 24 base, 30 with rage and packed a +3 burst weapon his damage would end up as: 3x(1d12 + 3 + 15 + 26) = 3d12 + 1d6 + 2d10 + 132. So he would need to produce 46 damage from damage dice to kill himself via damage instantly (+10 from the original 36 since you die at -10 not 0). The average result of those dice is 34 putting it well within the range of possibility. It should be noted I have no information about what this characters stats are or his equipment. I just wanted to prove it was possible for a barbarian to kill himself at a higher level instantly with his own great axe's crit. Don't forget that he said that it was a maximum damage crit. So with the above maths, it would be 36 +6 +20 +132 = 194 damage. Ouch. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
cwslyclgh 12-29-05, 07:45 PM	The weapon does not get a save unless it is magical, and then it uses it's own will save, not it's weilder's.an attended object gets its own save or it's wielders which ever is higher, this is the case any time the object would have to make a save, and it is even needlessly spelled out in the text of the backbiter spell...
Raven Dark 12-29-05, 08:26 PM	an attended object gets its own save or it's wielders which ever is higher, this is the case any time the object would have to make a save, and it is even needlessly spelled out in the text of the backbiter spell... The Barbarian rolled really low on his save. That combined with a penalty from Wisdom made it so he didn't have a chance. :(
SnakePlisken 12-29-05, 08:31 PM	No it isn't...[/SIZE] yeah it is... :D
was_fired 12-29-05, 08:36 PM	I just noticed that the barbarian in question was 20th level (oops). So lets take my example further. He should be packing a +6 Str item along with (if Str focused) +5 extra due to wish. Now lets say he wasn't the brightest so he went with an amulet of natural armor as opposed to of health, so no con boosts besides rage. So jump his Str 39 to and Con 22 to with rage. This puts his hitpoints to 256 (rounded up). Now at 20th level odds are your packing a +10 weapon so lets say a +5 two burst type keen weapon (the keen doesn't matter, but with those properties it would be likely). His damage would be 3(1d12 + 5 + 21 Str + 40 Power Attack) + 2d6 + 4d10 = 3d12 + 2d6 + 4d10 + 198. So he would need to do 68 damage. Average damage from those dice produce 48.5, and maxium results produce 88. Instant death is possible with a con boosting item.
Board_Rider 12-29-05, 08:46 PM	Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon? HA!! I so want a Spell Compendium now.
Seeker95 12-29-05, 10:00 PM	Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon?Because he is playing under the 2nd edition "distrusts magic" concept?
Raven Dark 12-29-05, 10:21 PM	Why isn't a Barbarian of such high level not carrying a magical weapon? HA!! I so want a Spell Compendium now. What do you think he was trying to buy? :D ;) :P
Vangerdahast 12-29-05, 10:55 PM	Well, it´s a good story, and sounds true. But indeed it´s weird for a 20th lvl Brb not to have a magical weapon... ...unless he´s a Forsaker.
Board_Rider 12-29-05, 11:31 PM	What do you think he was trying to buy? :D ;) :P Then, I have to ask, what was a 1st Level Wizard doing with a magical Greataxe? :confused:
Edymnion 12-30-05, 12:15 AM	Then, I have to ask, what was a 1st Level Wizard doing with a magical Greataxe? :confused:It was stolen, it was sundered, they just got through fighting a rust monster, they had just escaped from being captured and didn't have their gear back yet... plenty of options :)
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-30-05, 12:24 AM	Only iffy part is if they would walk around with Backbiter prepared that day, but assuming he did, it was entirely legit. Good show! Elliot: "Hey, Jotan, some adventurers rode into town this morning." Jotan: "Oh crap, really? You know how most of them are. They think they can just kill people to solve all thier problems." Elliot: "Yeah, unlike us villagers, who hire adventurers to kill things (sweet Pelor, Jotan, you know goblins and orcs aren't people) to solve all our problems. Jotan: "That's just crazy old Jebai. Man, that old coot can't even put his feet up without hiring an adventurer to kill a golbin to put them up on." Elliot: "Yes, he's a hero to us all. Well, anyway, just a heads up, they'll be coming here to buy magic items." Jotan: "Thanks for the warning, better memorize backbiter today, just in case."
Board_Rider 12-30-05, 12:25 AM	If their gear was missing then where did the Barbarian get the axe that he did have, same goes for with the sunder argument and the rust monster option. If their gear was missing too, then how was the Barb going to pay for the axe? hmmmm.. :cool: